Members Nick* Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 Ok...seems it's time for a new mic. Here are some details: 1) The mic will be used primarily for vocals, however, it would be nice to have some versatility to the mic. 2) I am a bass-baritone type singer (voice can be heard in my sig). 3) I do a decent variety of music...a lot of acoustic and rock though. 4) I have a KSM27 which I think is great for acoustic guitar and distance mic'ing- nice and transparent mic. I have an MXL V69ME (that I will eventually upgrade with newer parts; tube, etc.), which is pretty dark, but handles some vocals, acoustic guitar, and screaming pretty well. I also have an SM57 which handles screaming, guitar amp, and singing well. I do plan on picking up an SM7B for screaming in the future. 5) I would really like a mic that does a good job on regular vocals and softer spoken vocals. Now, I know I am asking for a lot....and maybe it's impossible to achieve all of this in 1 mic, however, I would love to hear some recommendations. Here are some mics that I had in mind.. Rode NTK - read some interesting stuff about this mic. Seems like a great mic for vocals. Although it looks good, some people have doubted it, and the only 1 polar pattern is a little bit of a let down. AKG C 414 B-XL II - been around for a long time and recommended for vocals pretty often. However, I sometimes wonder if this mic is given a little too much credit solely because of the fact that its "been a standard for a long time." And the 5 polar patterns seem to be more than I would need. Rode K2 - I'm starting to like this option more and more. It has 3 polar patterns which give it some versatility. But, is it as warm as the NTK on vocals? And a lot of people have bashed Rode mics quite often. Plenty of other mics out there as well....just not sure. Any recommendations? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 What about "regular" and "softer spoken" vocals don't you like with your existing mics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I have an NTK, a 414 B/XLS (which I believe is supposed to have less top-end hype than the XL-II?), a few other condensor options, and an SM-7b. My favorite vocal mic these days, though, is a Microtech-Gefell MT-71S. Warm, full-bodied sound with a silky-smooth top end that takes EQ well without sounding harsh. I'm not sure I'd describe the NTK as an especially warm mic. I like it, and sometimes it's just the mic for the job, but I think the Gefell is much more along the lines of what I consider a "warm" mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members I was The Funk Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I have an NTK. Its actually best for baritone vocals. Does an ok job on acoustic guitar (very shimmery) and can be pretty versitile. Its smooth and bright. Not a detail mic. Sort of "airbrushy" which sometimes is just the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I've used a Rode NT2, which has a noticeable rise around 12kHz, on baritone vocals before, and it sounded good for stuff like that. Sometimes a super airy mic can sound amazing on baritones. Perhaps the NTK might have a similar feel if it has similar characteristics. But I'd still be curious as to what the OP does not like about the mics he has now. I always try and look for ways to make what I have work - particularly if they are decent quality - before looking to buy something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I'm more curious as to what pres were used on the OP's mics, sometimes that is all that is needed. Also, another mic may be the trick if used with the right pre which you may not currently own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 Wow...thanks for all the responses. Well, it's not that I don't like what I have, it's just that it is a bit different. I'll give you my feelings about my mics.. Shure KSM27 - probably my favorite mic that I own. This thing is very universal..used it for vocals, acoustic guitar, electric amp, harmonica, etc. This thing is great for distance mic'ing as well. However, it is a very sensitive mic, and I just feel it misses a little bit on the vocals. Obviously it doesn't handle screaming the best (which is expected), but it does handle some softer singing. I just feel like I'm working with a very transparent mic that gives very little character, warm, or thickness to some of the stronger vocals. HOWEVER...it is a great mic. MXL V69ME - ok on acoustic guitar, and decent on some of the higher range rock singing and screaming. My lower range came out a bit muddy sounding to my ears. Doesn't do some of the softer singing good at all. Shure SM57 - good for electric guitar amp and some singing/screaming. Of course a versatile mic with a lot of vocal character and warmth is much easier said then done. But I don't know...maybe I do have what I need. Maybe I'm just crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I have an NTK, a 414 B/XLS (which I believe is supposed to have less top-end hype than the XL-II?), a few other condensor options, and an SM-7b. My favorite vocal mic these days, though, is a Microtech-Gefell MT-71S. Warm, full-bodied sound with a silky-smooth top end that takes EQ well without sounding harsh. I'm not sure I'd describe the NTK as an especially warm mic. I like it, and sometimes it's just the mic for the job, but I think the Gefell is much more along the lines of what I consider a "warm" mic. I was afraid of hearing the names Neumann or Microtech-Gefell. They seem to be a bit out of a college students budget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I'm more curious as to what pres were used on the OP's mics, sometimes that is all that is needed. Also, another mic may be the trick if used with the right pre which you may not currently own. Good point...I lack a lot in the pre department as well. I usually use the pre on my Boss recorder. However, I do own a Studio Projects preamp and an EH tube pre. I will be returning the EH pre because I don't think it is any better than the preamp on my recorder...waste of $190 in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 I was gonna ask about your mic preamps as well but forgot, but fortunately, Majoria asked! Okay, I have a suggestion which you may feel is insane, but bear with me. You seem to be saying that the Shure isn't warm enough, and the MXL is too muddy. What would happen if you tracked your vocals with both mics simultaneously side by side? I've done this more than once in a similar situation, and it's worked out very well. In fact, I've been interviewed in a couple of magazines for this very trick (Future Music was one of them, and I'm not 100% sure of the other one, possibly EQ). Blend to taste. Make certain the mics are positioned equidistant from the vocalist, right next to each other, yadda yadda. ~~~~~~~~Back to less kooky ideas: A good preamp can lend a LOT of character, which seems to be the other thing that you feel is missing from the Shure microphone, so you could look into that anyway, since even if you do eventually buy another mic to fit your purpose, you will probably want a higher-quality mic preamp anyway. I love FMR RNPs, btw, but I don't know that they have the character that you are looking for, assuming that "character" means a little "hair" on the vocals, girth, that kind of thing. However, I do really like RNPs on vocals because it sounds really open and transparent. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now I'm really going off on a tangent, but a good cheap way to impart a little "hair" on your audio is to put your audio through an FMR RNLA, something I do regularly. My go-to chain is typically a Lawson L251 tube LDC > FMR RNLA (sometimese) > Neve Portico with Silk Mode engaged (which creates more girth and desirable distortion through the transformer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 24, 2009 Members Share Posted January 24, 2009 Okay, one more thing...if you used the MXL, but backed off from the mic a little and/or engaged a high-pass filter to roll off some of the bottom. For this latter idea, you could use the mic preamp's HP filter or use a plug-in after you record. I've never used the MXL, but that's supposed to be a good mic, and I've heard really good vocals cut on that before. And quite frankly, I've never gotten muddy vocals out of any microphone ever (and I am quite certain that a couple of vocal mics I have get more bottom end than the MXL), so I can't help but think we might be able to solve the problem without buying more gear...unless, of course, that's what you WANT to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Wow, thanks for all the help UstadKhanAli. That was great info. You definitely have some interesting ideas that I will try out. As far as mics and preamps go.......I hear people mentioning a lot of mics that are $500, $600, up to $1,000 that are great. However, when people discuss great preamps, they seem to cost $2,000 or $3,000...which is out of my price range. So I guess I always had the idea in the back of my head to stock up on mics now, and then preamps later. One thing that was also discouraging was when I bought the Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 Tube Microphone Preamp. In my opinion, that was a pretty big waste of money. I'm not sure what the "tube" was supposed to add...but the Boss preamp on the recorder was pretty much just as good. Now that you mention a RNP preamp (which I am unfamiliar with), I'm a little worried it might not deliver (just like the EH pre didn't). I like some of the stuff that the MXL offers. I think it's great for some of the higher rock singing. For some reason, I feel like when I slip into that lower bass-baritone range, I lose a lot of character and overall clear sound. I personally think the higher range is perfect though...especially for rock singing. Very nice dark sound it has to it. BTW, I'm not really a "tube" type of guy. You won't hear me asking about the best tube mic or preamp. I know I chose some tube mics and stuff, but I'm starting to think SS might be the way to go. You were really a great help UstadKhanAli. I appreciate the time and info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 You're welcome!! First, consider using the MXL again but backing off from the mic more than you did before. If that still doesn't get you what you want (it's a balance thing - too close, too much proximity effect; too far, and it, well, sounds too far! ), then consider rolling off some of the bottom the best you can, whether that's a high-pass filter or something else. I think that doing these two things will clear up that mud. And anyway, it's easy to try and do. The FMR RNP is a dual mic preamp. It's not at all "tubey" sounding in the stereotypical sense of the word. It's very open and clear. I am not familiar with the mic preamps that you use, but I can tell you that this thing completely smokes a Mackie mic preamp. I had Mackie preamps, and the first time I ever got the FMR RNP and tested it on a vocalist, a huge smile crept across my face. For less than $500, you get two mic preamps (in a box that sort of looks like a DIY kit, but don't let that fool you...all the good stuff is inside, not outside). I own two of these, and they happily sit along side my Neve Portico and Peavey VMP-2, which are considerably more expensive. Still, I have no qualms about using them right alongside them. Do a search on FMR RNPs and you'll see what I mean...rave review after rave review. If big, open and clear and airy sound like adjectives that you want out of a mic preamp, you'll probably love the RNP. If you want fat, "tubey" or "tons of character" or "Neve-like" or things like that, then you'd probably want to check out something else, and unfortunately, that'll probably cost you a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 BTW, I'm not really a "tube" type of guy. You won't hear me asking about the best tube mic or preamp. I know I chose some tube mics and stuff, but I'm starting to think SS might be the way to go. Maybe. I have a (modified) AT4060, a tube LDC, and I chose it just because it was really smooth. I don't think it sounds "tubey" at all, just good. So who knows, y'know? I have a Neve Portico, and in Silk Mode, it puts more "hair" on the audio than my Peavey VMP-2 because much of this sound apparently comes from Neve's transformer. So, like you, I don't get very hung up on whether it has a tube or not, just whether it gets me where I want to go. I try and get the best stuff I can afford, sure. But first, I try a lot of different mic combinations, placement, acoustic treatment, getting the tone right at the source, singing correctly into the mic, and that kind of thing. You get the idea. Anyway, hopefully one of those ideas above will work out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Wow...you are really making the RNP sound very desirable. The only thing that worries me about a preamp that cheap is what I'm really getting out of it. When I listened to my Studio Projects pre, my EH pre, and the pre connected to my recorder, they all pretty much sound the same. However, when I listen to different microphones, I seem to hear definite differences between them. I was also considering a Grace Design m101, but I stopped and thought..."what is this going to do that my current pre doesn't already do?" I know I sound really skeptical...I'm just not 100% sure what another pre will do. People tole me that the Studio Projects and Electro-Harmonix would make a clear difference in sound from the Boss pre...but they sure didn't to my ears. I would definitely be willing to give the RNP a shot as long as I would be able to return it if I didn't like it. Unfortunately, it is SO hard to test mics and preamps. I really wish I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 This sort of thing is why it's a good idea to give a budget or a price limit when asking about gear. Or maybe you did, and I just missed it. Either way, I know what you mean about being a poor college student. The best thing about being a college student? When you get OUT of college and find a job, you can finally afford some of that gear you've been hearing about. That said... The RNP is a very solid preamp. I have a Grace Design Model 101 (the precursor to the m101 you mentioned) and IMO the RNP is a much better value. It's cheaper than the m101, you get two channels instead of one, and the quality is at least as good. Just keep in mind that what you put in is what you'll get out - it won't work magic on your signal chain, but it will do a great job of letting your mics and voice (or guitar or whatever else the mic is in front of) shine through. I have preamps from API, Great River, Focusrite, Grace, Groove Tubes, etc., and the two RNPs I have still get a ton of use. They're just good, clean preamps. I can't remember the last time I hear someone say anything negative about the RNP. If you want something a little more colored, the Groove Tubes "The Brick" is also a reasonably-priced quality preamp. It's not quite as clean as the RNP, and it adds a little of that tube roundness to your signal. The Brick is one of my favorite guitar preamps, in fact, and I also like it on vocals. edit: I should add, to address the original question, that the Shure SM-7b is good for more than just screaming vocals. An SM-7b through an RNP would make a very usable signal chain that I wouldn't hesitate to try on about any singer, in front of an electric guitar cab, or even in front of a bass cab or a kick drum. It may not always be the ideal mic for everyone, but it's solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Wow...you are really making the RNP sound very desirable. The only thing that worries me about a preamp that cheap is what I'm really getting out of it. I know I sound really skeptical...I'm just not 100% sure what another pre will do. People tole me that the Studio Projects and Electro-Harmonix would make a clear difference in sound from the Boss pre...but they sure didn't to my ears. I would definitely be willing to give the RNP a shot as long as I would be able to return it if I didn't like it. Unfortunately, it is SO hard to test mics and preamps. I really wish I could. You *should* be skeptical. And you don't know me, so y'know... That's my experience from it. I got one from Mercenary Audio (Fletcher), and I believe you can return it if you don't like it. They have great customer service. I have no idea how good the Boss mic preamp is or anything like that, so also take that into consideration. I stepped up to the RNPs from Mackie preamps. The one thing I can tell you is that it compares really well to the Neve Portico when that is in "regular" mode (no Silk mode). If I listen really carefully to a vocal track, I can hear the difference, but I have to listen really carefully. And I have a really good monitoring chain. I've never used Sytek, but a lot of people whose opinions I really trust really think that those are great. I think they're $800 for 4 mic preamps, maybe a little more, I can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Sorry I didn't add a budget. I didn't want to actually put a set number down because I can always try to save up for a little more for what is needed. The preamp thing is very interesting. Like I said, I've only had bad experiences with preamps, which is what makes me so crazy. After trying those preamps, I basically just didn't believe that there was anything that cheap that could make a difference in my recordings. So, I think that's why I'm so skeptical about preamps. However, from what I've heard about the RNP, I would definitely like to at least give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Keep in mind that while preamps can make a difference, they won't make as much difference as going from mic to mic (generally speaking) unless you're moving up from something really horrible. Preamp differences are often pretty subtle. In your situation, looking for something that works well with a baritone singing voice, I'd probably try an SM-7b and see how it sounds with your present setup before worrying too much about changing preamps. I have no idea how those Boss preamps are, so while it's possible that adding a Brick or an RNP would make a big difference, it's also possible that the difference would be very subtle. So I'd probably start with the mic and then see where you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 You *should* be skeptical. And you don't know me, so y'know... That's my experience from it. I got one from Mercenary Audio (Fletcher), and I believe you can return it if you don't like it. They have great customer service. I have no idea how good the Boss mic preamp is or anything like that, so also take that into consideration. I stepped up to the RNPs from Mackie preamps. The one thing I can tell you is that it compares really well to the Neve Portico when that is in "regular" mode (no Silk mode). If I listen really carefully to a vocal track, I can hear the difference, but I have to listen really carefully. And I have a really good monitoring chain. I've never used Sytek, but a lot of people whose opinions I really trust really think that those are great. I think they're $800 for 4 mic preamps, maybe a little more, I can't remember. Well, everything I've read about the RNC leads me to think I should give it a try. I was previously considering Joemeek and the Grace Design m101, but the RNC seems to take the cake. It's really cheap too! Hmmm....maybe it's time for another preamp AND mic?! If this preamp sounds very clear and open, then that would be great. I think I would rather have 1 really clean SS preamp and use several mics to get the sounds I want, rather than vice versa. This was great...you guys were great. If this preamp is really that good for under $500, then I'll be real happy! However, I'm still a bit skeptical...but I'm going to give it a shot. Thanks a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Keep in mind that while preamps can make a difference, they won't make as much difference as going from mic to mic (generally speaking) unless you're moving up from something really horrible. Preamp differences are often pretty subtle. In your situation, looking for something that works well with a baritone singing voice, I'd probably try an SM-7b and see how it sounds with your present setup before worrying too much about changing preamps. I have no idea how those Boss preamps are, so while it's possible that adding a Brick or an RNP would make a big difference, it's also possible that the difference would be very subtle. So I'd probably start with the mic and then see where you are. Well, I'm not in a rush to get a perfect album out or anything. I'm more than willing to take it step by step. Personally, I don't care if I get a new mic or a new preamp because eventually I plan on getting lots of mics and preamps. I'm only 20 right now and I've just began to build up my home studio. By the time I'm 25....who knows?? I'm definitely interested in getting an RNP preamp now. However, I was also interested in getting a Rode K2 (I can get a brand new one for $475). I figured if I at least got a K2 (if it's a good mic), I'll have those 3 polar patterns. Right now I only have cardioid mics...so I thought an addition like a K2 would be a good idea. And an SM7b? I've seen my favorite singer (Chris Cornell) use an SM7b in the studio....so don't worry, that will be added to the collection very soon as well!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Keep in mind that while preamps can make a difference, they won't make as much difference as going from mic to mic From my little experience...and it's VERY little...I DEFINITELY agree with that statement. It's really crazy how many different sounds you can get using different mics. I would have never expected such differences in all of the mics out there. It's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Majoria Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 A mic will usually make a bigger difference than a preamp, however better mics will make a bigger difference when changing from a cheap preamp to a good one. It was posted on this forum that the SM-7b was ok through a stock pre but really shined when going through a good pre. Whereas a cheap mic doesn't really improve much when going from low end to high end pre. If you have a few good mics, I'd recommend to get at least one good pre before getting more mics as it will enhance the mics you already have and will get in the future. And the RNP is a great place to start since it has 2 independent channels so you can record two mics at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nick* Posted January 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well, it turns out Sam Ash sells the RNP. So, I'll see if one of the Sam Ash's near me has it. If I like it; I'll keep it. If I don't like it; I'll return it. Although...I still wouldn't mind a new mic going along with the RNP.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted January 25, 2009 Members Share Posted January 25, 2009 Mr Joshua is right, of course. There's a far bigger difference between mics than mic preamps. This isn't to discount the importance of mic preamps, but just to put it in perspective. Nick *, if you do try out the RNP (Really Nice Preamp) from FMR, try and find a place like Mercenary Audio that will give you a 30-day trial period. I also want to mention that I'm friendly with Mark McQuilken of FMR, although I've never actually met him (talked to him on the phone several times, and have known him online for about ten years), and the guy just doesn't make junk. He's completely unrelenting in his quest for the best possible sound while keeping the price reasonable. And you cannot possibly ever get better customer service. Ever. But anyway, I got friendly with him because he makes such great products. I raved about the RNC online, and we got to know each other largely through that, and he even put my testimonial first on the website for the longest time. In fact, it's still there: http://www.fmraudio.com/reviewspage.htm under the "heard around the net" heading along with a link to my website which changed its domain name about nine years ago!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.