Mic'ing a Upright Piano for ROCK!

[Lee Knight]

On Thursday of next week I've got a very good piano player coming over to do a session. He's done time in country singer Kenny Chesny's touring band and really can knock out some serious old school rock. And that's what I'll be asking him to do. Play Ian McLagan style stuff and a bit of Floyd Crammer country as well.

 

My upright is a good sounding Young Chang studio height. That's the one just a little short of a full upright. All the front and top panels can be removed and it tends to sound its best that way. Remove the panels and have it tuned the day before the session next week.

 

If I could change anything about the piano is it can be a little too dark for rock stuff. Perfect for that Sarah McLachlan style dark introspection but... I want some aggression.

 

I've got an 87, two 414s, two Octava 012s, a couple of Fathead ribbons as well but most likely won't be used for this session. Hey, even a couple of 57s for rock grins. Into either an API, RNP, or old Uries.

 

My first leaning is to mic from the players ears. Just straddle his head with a couple of 414s into the API and call it rock. But... has anyone ever tried 57s at the back board? Or any other technique that might bring out a bit more in your face rock sound from a slight dark almost full sized upright?

 

Any ideas?

[AluminumNeck]

Do you have a good quality 88key Midi controller ? Have him record on that to. There are some simple fantastic piano simulations that are perfect for what your doing. If it was me I would record with every microphone I owned. simultanoeusly.

[MrJoshua]

With that selection I'd try either the 414s or the Fatheads, probably in a Blumlein, and move them around until they were picking up the sound I wanted. Could take some experimentation!

[Lee Knight]

 

Do you have a good quality 88key Midi controller ? Have him record on that to. There are some simple fantastic piano simulations that are perfect for what your doing. If it was me I would record with every microphone I owned. simultanoeusly.

 

 

 

The guy has the new top of the line Motif. But i really want a real piano on this. Warts and all. The Motif will do B3 an Wurly duties.

[Lee Knight]

With that selection I'd try either the 414s or the Fatheads, probably in a Blumlein, and move them around until they were picking up the sound I wanted. Could take some experimentation!

 

Now that I think of it... I will use the Fatheads in Blumlien for effect stuff. Just run that in addition to the main pair for lo fi intros and the funk factor.

 

Hey, I've got PZMs and Groove Tube GT33s as well. Phil? Ever use your GT33s for bright piano?

[AluminumNeck]

Good. Get a MIDI recording of the performance. The Motif piano sounds aren;t the greatest to be honest. There are far superior and better piano simulations and smaplers out there.

 

Doesn;t hurt to get a midi capture. its just another avenue to travel.

 

 

The guy has the new top of the line Motif. But i really want a real piano on this. Warts and all. The Motif will do B3 an Wurly duties.

 

[Lee Knight]

 

Good. Get a MIDI recording of the performance. The Motif piano sounds aren;t the greatest to be honest. There are far superior and better piano simulations and smaplers out there. Doesn;t hurt to get a midi capture. its just another avenue to travel.

 

 

I see what you're saying... for the B3 and Wurly stuff. Of course the piano won't be getting any MIDI capture. Yeah, I get MIDI everytime. Just as I get a guitar DI in case. Regardless.

[AluminumNeck]

Get a good Piano performance from the midi as well . It cantt hurt to have more source to work from and you might be really amazed at how good these samplers sound. I know I was blown away the first time I tried Pianoteq 3.0. Absolutely realistic. I posted a sound file in the other forum a few weeks back and none noticed it was a forgery or a fake piano.

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318688

[Lee Flier]

I would use the 414's. I just recorded my favorite keys player in town (who plays very aggressive old school rock piano a la McLagan, Nicky Hopkins) playing my old upright. I used Heil PR30's (which actually sound pretty similar to 414's) and I removed the front panel and just moved them around in front of the harp till they sounded good. They ended up being about 20" apart and each angled slightly toward the center. About 6" off the strings, to minimize bass proximity and yet pick up plenty of the attack. If you want to emphasize the brightness because the piano is dark, you can point the mics more toward the top end of the keyboard, and the angle will also make a difference of course if you're in cardioid.

 

I don't know that I would use the API - that would emphasize the darkness too much I should think. I'd use the RNP - that'd get a more bright open sound than the API's IMO.

[Lee Knight]

 

Get a good Piano performance from the midi as well . It cantt hurt to have more source to work from and you might be really amazed at how good these samplers sound. I know I was blown away the first time I tried Pianoteq 3.0. Absolutely realistic. I posted a sound file in the other forum a few weeks back and none noticed it was a forgery or a fake piano. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318688

 

 

Hey, I hear you. But I'm getting away from that whenever I can. I don't doubt you can get a great sound with samples, etc. Absolutely. But I'm looking for the imperfections of... air. The room, the piano, it'll be a good combo, just need a bit of brightness. EQ will work even. But I like Lee's suggestion of the RNP as the pre. I'll test it out.

[Jimbroni]

I'm not a midi afficionado, but I do use a lot of samples. I've never heard one good piano sample anywhere. Stick to your guns Lee.

 

I tend to record it like Ms Flier Suggested, a spaced pair each aimed toward the center with the cover removed. Of course that is for a track where the piano is just part of the mix, and not the center piece.

 

When I want a dominant Piano, I get more experimental. I usually don't do Blumlein however. I lean towards M-S plus a close mic.

 

Other than that. I'd say playing with the room will have the biggest impact. Try to make the room sound like a saloon. Fill it with half empty whiskey bottles, a burlesque girl or three, some temporary wood paneling.

[AluminumNeck]

Try listening to pianoteq. Its not a sampler. Its a modeler. Very different.

 

My point was. Get a good piano recording but also get a midi back up of the same performance.

 

the best that happens is that you have it and don't use it. The best worst scenario is something never sits right with the sound and you have a alternative road you can travel.

 

First rule of recording I was tuaght when I went to college for a few semester for it. Always capture as much as you can. Its easy to strip away and not use something. Its much harder to add it later.

 

Mseaure twice cut once. Not cut once and measure afterwards.

 

Also if the player is predominatly playing a particular key action I'd bet my ass that his performance will be superior on that instrument he uses most.

 

 

I'm not a midi afficionado, but I do use a lot of samples. I've never heard one good piano sample anywhere. Stick to your guns Lee. I tend to record it like Ms Flier Suggested, a spaced pair each aimed toward the center with the cover removed. Of course that is for a track where the piano is just part of the mix, and not the center piece. When I want a dominant Piano, I get more experimental. I usually don't do Blumlein however. I lean towards M-S plus a close mic. Other than that. I'd say playing with the room will have the biggest impact. Try to make the room sound like a saloon. Fill it with half empty whiskey bottles, a burlesque girl or three, some temporary wood paneling.

[Lee Flier]

My point was. Get a good piano recording but also get a midi back up of the same performance.

 

Errhh ya can't get a MIDI backup of the same performance if the performance is on acoustic piano. And not everybody's so enthralled with samplers or modelers. Even sonic considerations aside, a player performs differently on a real piano vs. an electric keyboard - it's a much different feel. As much as I love the electric guitar, I wouldn't want to play an acoustic guitar part on an electric and use modeling to try to sound like an acoustic!

 

First rule of recording I was tuaght when I went to college for a few semester for it. Always capture as much as you can. Its easy to strip away and not use something. Its much harder to add it later.

 

Well that is one school of thought. Another school of thought being "Don't be such a wuss. Trust your experience and your ears to get a good sound, and commit to it." These days engineers put off seemingly EVERY decision until they get to the mix, and IMO that is to the detriment of the performance. A performer plays to the sound of the instrument, and a good one also tries to vary their tone and dynamics according to what else is going on in the arrangement and what the other musicians are doing. If the player has no idea what the final track is going to sound like, or even what the final arrangement of the tune will be, they aren't going to be able to turn in a performance that really flows with the song or the production or the other musicians. The result is usually a perhaps competently played, well recorded but very generic performance.

 

It sounds like Lee already has a good idea of what he wants out of the track, sonically and arrangement-wise. And he's experienced enough to know when he's gotten the sound he wants. He doesn't need a backup plan for everything so he can have 5700 options to choose from in the mix, none of which the musician was likely even hearing when he played the part, and none of which has the idiosyncracies of the actual instrument that Lee wants to use.

[UstadKhanAli]

I play piano. In fact, it's my first instrument. I've been playing it since I was about 6 or 7.

 

Digital pianos sound better and better. Surprisingly good. And I'm not super dogmatic about whether it's digital, modeled, or real...if a modeled or digital or sampled piano sounded great, I'd use it. In fact, I'd PREFER that they sounded at least as good as an acoustic piano, believe me...you have no idea how much I wish for this. My Baldwin grand piano is at my parents' house because I don't have enough room for it here.

 

Thing is that for a recording, I so greatly prefer listening to a miced acoustic piano - even warts and all, if the room isn't quite ideal or whatever - to any digital, sampled, or modeled piano that I've ever heard.

 

I want to be proven wrong. Really, I do. But there's just so much character, harmonic complexity, interaction with the room, feel, subtlety, and nuance.

 

Consider the RNPs and the 414s to start, but maybe try a few different combos. Use your gut. You know how to engineer, so I'm not gonna tell you how to do it. A Young Chang upright is a good piano, and it'll give you a good sound.

[Lee Knight]

Lee and Ken... you guys pretty much nailed it for me. Aluminum, I do appreciate what you're saying, but I want him to get an album's worth of keyboard parts in an evening. I won't be asking him to give me one more on the controller. We will be moving quickly. The guy's in "favor" mode, I'm in "appreciative but greedy" mode.

 

And yeah, "Imagine" hearing John Lennon singing "...living for today-a ay" with a sim? Or Bill Payne from Little Feat knocking out some sampled honkytonk funk. Not the same.

 

There's a certain thing that happens with the cabinet and the almost dampened strings, they sort of ring over and add a body to it. And the room interaction. Dylan or Leon or early Edgar. It's that room sound I dig. Like the event really took place.

 

So yes there are great substitutes, and I have no issue issue using them when I have to. But I bought a piano for reason!

[AluminumNeck]

I'd bet they would if it saved them money on production. Quiet honestly things were recorded the way they were at the time becuase the alternatives were non existent. The had 1 road they could go and that was it

 

I don't care how the sound is generated as long as it serves the song.

 

My point is that if this guy is playing synths all day his hands are going to be conditioned to the feel of those keys. You may stick him on a piano and he may fall apart as a player especially if rushed.

 

 

Lee and Ken... you guys pretty much nailed it for me. Aluminum, I do appreciate what you're saying, but I want him to get an album's worth of keyboard parts in an evening. I won't be asking him to give me one more on the controller. We will be moving quickly. The guy's in "favor" mode, I'm in "appreciative but greedy" mode. And yeah, "Imagine" hearing John Lennon singing "...living for today-a ay" with a sim? Or Bill Payne from Little Feat knocking out some sampled honkytonk funk. Not the same . There's a certain thing that happens with the cabinet and the almost dampened strings, they sort of ring over and add a body to it. And the room interaction. Dylan or Leon or early Edgar. It's that room sound I dig. Like the event really took place. So yes there are great substitutes, and I have no issue issue using them when I have to. But I bought a piano for reason!

[Lee Knight]

 

My point is that if this guy is playing synths all day...

 

 

 

No, he's playing pianos all day. This is a perfect condition Young Chang. It plays great.

[AluminumNeck]

thats a good thing. The synth may pull the jedi mind trick then.

 

 

No, he's playing pianos all day.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

I don't know if non-piano players truly know how expressive a piano is, how much nuance and subtlety you can get with a piano, or just how harmonically complex it is as an instrument. There's some impressive piano sims there, but there's nothing like playing the real thing...or recording one.

 

As I said, I WANT a digital or sampled or modeled piano to sound like a real one. I WANT that. I'm waiting for this. You have no idea how badly I want this. I'm in a 926 sq. ft. house. I don't have room for my piano here. But while they sound good, they just aren't quite there yet. But each year, they get closer, and that's exciting.

[AluminumNeck]

I've owned 4. 2 stienways and 1 yamaha and one other one made in new york at the turn of the century I had when I was a kid.

 

Thats what impressed me about pianoteq. It was very convincing to me and I have had real pianos. I may shop craigslist for yet another one.

 

 

I don't know if non-piano players truly know how expressive a piano is, how much nuance and subtlety you can get with a piano, or just how harmonically complex it is as an instrument. There's some impressive piano sims there, but there's nothing like playing the real thing...or recording one. As I said, I WANT a digital or sampled or modeled piano to sound like a real one. I WANT that. I'm waiting for this. You have no idea how badly I want this. I'm in a 926 sq. ft. house. I don't have room for my piano here. But while they sound good, they just aren't quite there yet. But each year, they get closer, and that's exciting.

 

[UstadKhanAli]

 

I've owned 4. 2 stienways and 1 yamaha and one other one made in new york at the turn of the century I had when I was a kid. Thats what impressed me about pianoteq. It was very convincing to me and I have had real pianos. I may shop craigslist for yet another one.

 

 

Any recordings or demos or anything that we can hear?

 

And you play piano? If so, do you have another screen name called AluminumKeys?

[AluminumNeck]

No I am a bass player. I never really got into piano. I always had people and family giving them to me beuase I used to play clarinet and a whole host of other woodwinds. I just started learning to play keys over the last few weeks. I was always a key diddler though. I would sit down at the piano and figure out how to play stuff. It comes rather naturally. I need a few months to practice my piano skills and I think I may find myself as a pasable player. .

 

Yeah I posted a link to the sound of the pianoteq modler earlier in the thread but I have a MP3 I will host right here.

 

I have since reworked some of the settings and its feeling very very much like a real piano. They have a Online demo you can download for free.

 

see attached. I threw a smidgeon of reverb on it to add some room feel.

 

remove the .mov off the file exstension. HC and its stupid file attachment rules. I don't know why they just don't limit attachements to 5 mb and be done with it. This whole file type thing is stupid.

 

 

Any recordings or demos or anything that we can hear? And you play piano? If so, do you have another screen name called AluminumKeys?

 

[UstadKhanAli]

Sorry, didn't see the link before.

 

I did, however, listen to your MP3 file. It's impressive. I had to listen carefully to be able to tell the difference, which is pretty good when it's playing solo. There's certain harmonic complexities that it is not reproducing, but it really does sound good.

 

Thanks!!!!!!

[AluminumNeck]

thats version 2.3 You should here version 3.0. I bought somebodys basement studio out and got a liscense transfer copy for $25. Sweet. My problem is that I need to upgrade to version 3.0 and they are being funny about it with the liscense transfer.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, didn't see the link before. I did, however, listen to your MP3 file. It's impressive. I had to listen carefully to be able to tell the difference, which is pretty good when it's playing solo. There's certain harmonic complexities that it is not reproducing, but it really does sound good. Thanks!!!!!!

 

[WRGKMC]

lee if you want some brightness to the piano, if you can get hold of some Piezo contact mics and put then directly on the sound board and run an additional channel or two it can be a nice edge blending with mics to have the key cut through. A PZM mounted on the cover closed up might work too. I would try a combination of up close and distant mics to capture the sound. At least you have a few options to get different mixes for different songs without having to juggel mics to match each song recording.

 

I have an upright a buddy of mine gave me. I was thinking about buying a bunch of guitar pups and mounting them on a rail so I can electrify it like a guitar. Then I could use some effects on it overdrive churus etc. Its kind of a beater but its a small upright that might be worth experimenting with.