Increase String Tension w/o Higher String Guage

[Pigsinzen]

 

Originally posted by OrvilleGibson I think what Pigsinzen is trying to say is that a basic geometric principle is at work, not the tension on the truss rod directly. If a neck has a certain amount of relief (has a curvature), then straightening out the neck will move the two fulcrum (the nut and the saddle) slightly farther away from each other. The scale length will be slightly longer under these conditions. Given that the string mass hasn't changed (it's the same string) and the pitch/frequency is assumed to stay constant, you'd have to raise the tension for the longer scale length. Having said that, I'd have to guess that the actual change in length and the actual change in tension would have to be very small. Some previous posters are actually referring to elasticity rather than tension. All the length of string before the nut and after the saddle won't have any change at all on the tension of the string. Change that length all you want without changing the "speaking length" or scale length of the string, and you won't change the tension. However, what you will change is the feel, which some people attribute to tension when it's really about the elasticity.

 

 

BINGO!

[Osmosis]

 

Originally posted by OrvilleGibson I think what Pigsinzen is trying to say is that a basic geometric principle is at work, not the tension on the truss rod directly. If a neck has a certain amount of relief (has a curvature), then straightening out the neck will move the two fulcrum (the nut and the saddle) slightly farther away from each other. The scale length will be slightly longer under these conditions. Given that the string mass hasn't changed (it's the same string) and the pitch/frequency is assumed to stay constant, you'd have to raise the tension for the longer scale length. Having said that, I'd have to guess that the actual change in length and the actual change in tension would have to be very small. Some previous posters are actually referring to elasticity rather than tension. All the length of string before the nut and after the saddle won't have any change at all on the tension of the string. Change that length all you want without changing the "speaking length" or scale length of the string, and you won't change the tension. However, what you will change is the feel, which some people attribute to tension when it's really about the elasticity.

 

 

I understand that concept fully, that's why if you tighten a truss rod your tuning goes sharp (your strings get tighter!)...in that sense, pigsinzen is right. However, once you tune the strings back down to standard pitch, you're basically right back where you started tension-wise. Although technically the scale length is slightly longer on a straighter neck, you'd be talking millimeters of difference between the two...like you said, the change would be very very small...if someone asked me how to get more tension on their strings, the last thing I would tell them would be to straighten their neck (especially 'cause that would screw with their action, intonation, etc.). It's just not a useful solution to the problem.

[Pigsinzen]

The difference is noticeable. I can't play a guitar with a neck that is too straight as well as one with a slight bow.

 

the strings feel differently.

[potaetoes]

ok, for you hair-splitters in this thread: reducing relief also lowers action - any microscopic increase in tension from the nut and bridge moving one billionth of an asshair farther away from each other is offset by the reduction in fretted tension, since the string has to be deflected less to be fretted. it is moot, and definitely won't solve this guy's problem. also, notice that when you adjust neck relief on a floating trem guitar, or even raise/lower the bridge height, you don't have to adjust the trem springs because the tension change is so utterly insignificant. when you increase gauge, you definitely have to adjust the trem springs to keep the bridge from lifting... this is because the tension is significantly different.

 

the only way to increase tension without increasing pitch, in a way that human beings can actually notice, is to use a higher-density material for the strings (not practical), or a larger amount of the same material (higher gauge).

 

now, to the original poster: as tight as the nut looks, you can't look at a nut and make a visual determination as to whether or not there's .001-004" of room there or not. chances are 10s will fit with no problem in slots where 9-42 are now. nut files don't come in every thousandth of an inch size - slots are always approximated, and always filed slightly larger than the strings going in them by using the next larger file. typically, that's a .012 file used for 9s, 10s, and 11s... etc.

[Pigsinzen]

*shrug* I can tell anytime my neck is "off" by simply playing it.

 

I check it and sure enough BAM, it's shifted a bit.

[therepairgod]

ive heard that if you tune your guitar by harmonics only that it will increase the tension in the strings as you turn the tuners? but ive noticed that sometimes when im sharp and i have to lower the pitch the tension decreases? i dont get it? also my neck is all red, and kinda hunched over a bit? could this add tension?

[potaetoes]

 

Originally posted by Pigsinzen *shrug* I can tell anytime my neck is "off" by simply playing it. I check it and sure enough BAM, it's shifted a bit.

 

 

yes, different setups will feel different, but it's not a tension change that you're feeling.

[Fade2Grey]

 

Originally posted by jerry_picker The string material (alloy, thickness, wound vs solid), the scale length, and the pitch are the three independent variables for tension. That is all. pitch = [(tension/ mass per unit length)^0.5 ] / (2 x length) mass per unit length depends on the string material

 

 

+1

 

 

So without changing the gauge and the scale length, your only hope is getting less dense material....

 

less density=more tension

 

in the case of guitar strings.

[Osmosis]

 

Originally posted by Fade2Grey +1 So without changing the gauge and the scale length, your only hope is getting less dense material.... less density=more tension in the case of guitar strings.

 

 

I think you've got that backwards, more density = more tension. The actual figure we should be concerned with is mass...as mass increases, tension increases. Mass can be increased either by increasing the density of the material, or simply using more of the material (increasing gauge).

[Fade2Grey]

Originally posted by Osmosis I think you've got that backwards, more density = more tension. The actual figure we should be concerned with is mass...as mass increases, tension increases. Mass can be increased either by increasing the density of the material, or simply using more of the material (increasing gauge).

 

 

ya got me there... you're right about the more=more... got my braincells crossed for a moment.

 

However, I stand by my mass thing. The dude said to NOT change gauge. So you'll have to change the strings to a denser metal so with the same gauge, you'll have more tension... In the same vein, higher density is also higher mass for the same volume as

 

density=mass/volume

 

 

 

 

 

edit: crap... my eyes are really screwey today.. just ignore me....

[Pigsinzen]

 

Originally posted by potaetoes yes, different setups will feel different, but it's not a tension change that you're feeling.

 

 

Read the first post on this page then get back to me.

[jerry_picker]

 

Originally posted by jerry_picker The string material (alloy, thickness, wound vs solid), the scale length, and the pitch are the three independent variables for tension. That is all. pitch = [(tension/ mass per unit length)^0.5 ] / (2 x length) mass per unit length depends on the string material

 

 

Actually density is mass/volume, which for a uniform wire is the same as:

mass/(length x cross sectional area),

which equals:

mass/(length x pi x radius^2)

 

So, strictly speaking density is not directly related to tension, in that by adjusting the cross sectional area, strings of different density materials can be made to have the same tension.

 

It is mass/length that makes the difference. That is what gives a .013 more tension than a .009 when both are tuned to high E, for strings of the same density material.

 

 

Bottom line: if you say "density", you must also specify the radius (or cross sectional area).

[OrvilleGibson]

Others here can probably explain it better. the idea is that different length strings have different amounts of "give" when fretted. Image two otherwise identical strings: one 12" long and the other 100yds long. The longer one will be easier to displace by a given amount. At typical distances and differences found on guitars, though, you may or may not personally feel a difference.

 

Some archtop builders like to design their guitars so that either the thicker strings or the thinner strings have more total string length. The interesting thing is that there is no general consensus as to which way it's supposed to go! I've even heard one very respected builder go as far as to say that scale length has no effect on tension as far as he can tell. Of course, he's incorrect, but his point had more to do with feel than actual tension.

[potaetoes]

 

Originally posted by Pigsinzen Read the first post on this page then get back to me.

 

 

ok... what are you confused about now?

 

changing the setup isn't going to make 9s feel less floppy. changing the setup could certainly make the 9s play like crap and feel awful, but they'll still be floppy, because the tension will still be the same - i really don't think that's the kind of "trick" the dude is after.

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by OrvilleGibson Others here can probably explain it better. the idea is that different length strings have different amounts of "give" when fretted. Image two otherwise identical strings: one 12" long and the other 100yds long. The longer one will be easier to displace by a given amount. At typical distances and differences found on guitars, though, you may or may not personally feel a difference.

 

Yes. That's the "length" in the formula:

 

pitch = [(tension/ mass per unit length)^0.5 ] / (2 x length)

 

P=[(T/u)^0.5]/(2L) Math is elegant in its simplicity, don't you think?

 

Bigger L, i.e., longer string ---> lower pitch (ATBE)

[1esotericguy]

Holy shit! What happened in here. Just put on 10's or 11's and be done. If the neck gets wacky, turn the truss. It's a Brownsville right? I'm not familiar with those I don't think. Is it the house brand at Sam Ashe? Either way, it'll survive a string change. Go for it! 9's suck! Good instincts - change em.

[OrvilleGibson]

Originally posted by jerry_picker Yes. That's the "length" in the formula: pitch = [(tension/ mass per unit length)^0.5 ] / (2 x length) P=[(T/u)^0.5]/(2L) Math is elegant in its simplicity, don't you think? Bigger L, i.e., longer string ---> lower pitch (ATBE)

 

True enough, but we're talking about different things. In that last post, I was referring to the total length of the string (tuner post to tailpiece), not the speaking length (nut to saddle).

[jerry_picker]

 

Originally posted by OrvilleGibson True enough, but we're talking about different things. In that last post, I was referring to the total length of the string (tuner post to tailpiece), not the speaking length (nut to saddle).

 

 

The length-pitch-tension formula is derived from Hooke's Law. Hooke's Law also applies to systems in which the string encounters a fulcrum.

 

However, if a string is to have a certain pitch at a given scale length, the tag from bridge to tailpiece doesn't matter as far as the tension of the playable part of the string is concerned.

[walt0915]

 

Originally posted by Pigsinzen Tension is different when the neck is straighter because of the travel. Don't believe me straighten your neck a bit.

 

 

Ahh, but that's NOT tension - and it would in fact require MORE relief to get the effect, not less.

 

Tension is, as Jerry pointed out, only related to the length of the string, pitch, and mass of the string. The "floppiness" is affected by things like the break angle at the bridge, or the relief, or the springs (on a Strat) and things like this. This MAY be what the OP is actually concerned about, but relief has nothing to do with tension.

[Pigsinzen]

 

Originally posted by potaetoes ok... what are you confused about now?

 

Not a thing. Did you read his post?

[Pigsinzen]

DOUBLE POST

[Pigsinzen]

Originally posted by Osmosis I understand that concept fully, that's why if you tighten a truss rod your tuning goes sharp (your strings get tighter!)...in that sense, pigsinzen is right.

Thank you.

However, once you tune the strings back down to standard pitch, you're basically right back where you started tension-wise.

Not on the guitars I have played.

Although technically the scale length is slightly longer on a straighter neck, you'd be talking millimeters of difference between the two...like you said, the change would be very very small...

Yes, indeed it does. It's a small change, but one I can really notice.

if someone asked me how to get more tension on their strings, the last thing I would tell them would be to straighten their neck (especially 'cause that would screw with their action, intonation, etc.). It's just not a useful solution to the problem.

It may not be a useful solution because there needs to be a neck bow of a certain amount. But the it is a fact that it ads a small amount of tension, and a tiny longer scale.

 

That is all I am saying.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by GuitslingerTim The neck may have too much relief. Less neck relief will add tension to the strings.

 

 

I've been playing guitar for 32 years, and doing my own setups for 27 years. I've tried every imaginable setup and scenario, so let me break it down for you.

 

Tightening the nut on the trussrod and reducing the relief adds tension to the strings--you don't have to take my word for it, perform a simple experiment. Just remember that making the neck straighter will lower the action, requiring that it be raised to its former height. With all other facets of the setup being equal, less relief in the neck will add tension to the strings.

 

Adding relief to the neck can make the strings feel like there is more tension, but only because the action is raised higher as a result of the adjustment. If the strings are lowered to their former height, the strings will feel looser and more slinky with relief added to the neck.

[potaetoes]

 

Originally posted by Pigsinzen Not a thing. Did you read his post?

 

 

did you?

 

keep shovelin'...

[Pigsinzen]

Originally posted by GuitslingerTim I've been playing guitar for 32 years, and doing my own setups for 27 years. I've tried every imaginable setup and scenario, so let me break it down for you. Tightening the nut on the trussrod and reducing the relief adds tension to the strings--you don't have to take my word for it, perform a simple experiment.

 

Indeed.