Recording 5 piece band live with a Zoom R16- how best to split signals?

[surferbeto]

Hi all,

 

I want to make multi-track recordings of my 5-piece rock band, rehearsals and live performances (indoors and out). I want to record everyone separately and mix later. I recently got a Zoom R16 that can handle 8 simultaneous inputs and wonder how best to split signals to it? Looking for a cheap solution.

 

We're mostly a church band and there is no one to do sound for us, so our solution does not require persuading anyone to let us plug into their system- it's only us!

 

We route all our signals through a nice custom cable snake to a Yamaha MG166CXUSB, and back out to powered mains and monitors. Inputs include 3 vocal condensor mics (Shure Beta87A's), 2 guitars (through a DI and an SM57), bass (DI), and electronic drums (stereo line level).

 

I'm not super savvy about the sound board- that's kind of my drummer/engineer's bailiwick. I wonder if I can use the mixer's effects insert (1/4"TRS) to get line outs for the recorder? Or is the mixer's signal chain interrupted if I plug into the effects insert, take signal out and put nothing back in? And the drums would be on one of the stereo channels, which don't have effects, but maybe I could use an aux out for that?

 

Other ideas: Get a small pile of XLR Y-cable passive splitters and split signals before they hit the mixer. Or drop $200 on an ART S8 (8-Ch 1x2 Mic Splitter), which would give me isolated signals.

 

Looks like I'll be buying a small pile of short XLR (or 1/4") cables to connect up whatever I end up with.

 

Is it worth spending more for an isolated splitter? is the phantom power from the mixer going to mess with the recorder if I use passive splitters? Are there other considerations?

[Zooey]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but it sounds like you want to submix multiple mics and record them onto a single track or pair of tracks. That would require a mixer.

[surferbeto]

Let me restate my question:

 

I want to make live recordings of a 5-piece rock band using a multi-track recorder to capture each of up to 8 inputs separately. I need to modify the band's existing PA setup to provide inputs to the recorder. The three vocal mics need phantom power. I do not want to spend a lot of money.

 

There appear to be at least 3 general ways to do this. I seek knowledgeable advice on the pro's and con's of different ways to split the input signals.

 

1) Take line outs from the Yamaha MG166CXUSB mixer's effects insert plugs.

2) Use passive splitters (Y-cables) before the mixer.

3) Pay more for an 8 channel 1x2 isolated splitter box like the ART S8.

[CTBthefourth]

I think that the ART S8 would work in theory. I would go from the mics to the ART, then send one set of 8 outputs to the Yamaha and then the other 8 outputs to the Zoom. You will have to buy another snake or additional mic cables. I'm not sure if the phantom power will transfer through the mic splitter, so you may need to purchase additional phantom power boxes.

 

 

(This is something that I always wanted to do when I was in a small band, and everyone I asked about how to accomplish what you are asking looked at me as if I were crazy. For some reason people don't understand the want or the need to have separate tracks, even for live show recordings. I'm guessing you would use the tracks to clean up and mix for a live demo or even to assess where people may be messing up their parts of the performance.)

 

A simple RCA out into the Zoom would get you a recording, but you wouldn't be able to edit and isolate tracks.

[Flogger59]

Are the channel inserts on the Yamaha mixer being used? (That would be the 1/4" mystery jack next to the line input on each channel). If not, put a guitar cable in halfway (there should be 2 clicks if fully inserted, just go as far as the first one), and plug into the Zoom with the other end. If you push the cable all the way in it will mute that input on the Yamaha. Do this for each source.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I wonder if I can use the mixer's effects insert (1/4"TRS) to get line outs for the recorder? Or is the mixer's signal chain interrupted if I plug into the effects insert, take signal out and put nothing back in?

 

It depends on the mixer. On some, you can connect a 1/4" TS cable part-way into the insert jack - to the first "click" and access the direct out that way, without breaking the internal routing / connection. Can't hurt anything to try it with your Yamaha and see if it works. If it doesn't, you're out nothing but time.

 

If that doesn't work, I'd just get a splitter.

[surferbeto]

Thanks. You guys rock!

 

Mixer is in a locked room at the moment, but I'll check out the recommended "halfway in with a 1/4" jack" trick and see what I get. That would be a very cheap solution.

 

Hmmm... Manual suggests that the effects inserts are post-fader. I wish they were pre-fader. I guess we can work with that.

 

So if I split signals before the mixer, I get mic level input to the recorder (for the mic-ed channels). If I take line level output from the Yamaha mixer into the Zoom recorder, then my signal is boosted by the mixer's pre-amps and then also goes through the recorder's pre-amps. Would that mean any significant loss of fidelity?

[Flogger59]

 

Thanks. You guys rock! Mixer is in a locked room at the moment, but I'll check out the recommended "halfway in with a 1/4" jack" trick and see what I get. That would be a very cheap solution. Hmmm... Manual suggests that the effects inserts are post-fader. I wish they were pre-fader. I guess we can work with that. So if I split signals before the mixer, I get mic level input to the recorder (for the mic-ed channels). If I take line level output from the Yamaha mixer into the Zoom recorder, then my signal is boosted by the mixer's pre-amps and then also goes through the recorder's pre-amps. Would that mean any significant loss of fidelity?

 

 

Shouldn't be a problem if you keep the Zoom's input gain low.

[WRGKMC]

The Yamaha MG166CXUSB is a 16 channel 6 bus mixer. You can use the 6 busses

to record to the zoom and also a stereo mix off the mains.

 

read your manuals, all the info for doing this is there if you can understand what you're reading.

Otherwise hire a sound man for a night who knows what he's doing and can set you up.

 

The mixer is also USB so you can skip using the zoom all together and plug in a laptop

pr PC and record directly to the computer. Using theZoom aoly adds a second set of preamps

and converters. The yamaha converters will likely blow the doors off the Zoom.

 

You'll simply have to read the manual. I didnt see if the mixer lets you record 16 individual channels or not.

Some mixer do and some dont.

 

In any case it will be be best to use the Yamaha preamps and converters

if possible. Otherwise, if its only a stereo USB out, you can connect the Zoom to the 6 busses and

mix the drums to one, bass to another guitar to another and then you'll have three for individual vocals.

if you only have one vocal at a time, set the drums up on two busses for a good stereo pan.

The drums are electric so thats the way I'd record them.

 

I'd use the two additional inputs on the zoom for a set of boundry /condencer mics that capture the room sound

out front and audiance.

[Flogger59]

 

The Yamaha MG166CXUSB is a 16 channel 6 bus mixer. You can use the 6 busses to record to the zoom and also a stereo mix off the mains. read your manuals, all the info for doing this is there if you can understand what you're reading. Otherwise hire a sound man for a night who knows what he's doing and can set you up. The mixer is also USB so you can skip using the zoom all together and plug in a laptop pr PC and record directly to the computer. Using theZoom aoly adds a second set of preamps and converters. The yamaha converters will likely blow the doors off the Zoom. You'll simply have to read the manual. I didnt see if the mixer lets you record 16 individual channels or not. Some mixer do and some dont. In any case it will be be best to use the Yamaha preamps and converters if possible. Otherwise, if its only a stereo USB out, you can connect the Zoom to the 6 busses and mix the drums to one, bass to another guitar to another and then you'll have three for individual vocals. if you only have one vocal at a time, set the drums up on two busses for a good stereo pan. The drums are electric so thats the way I'd record them. I'd use the two additional inputs on the zoom for a set of boundry /condencer mics that capture the room sound out front and audiance.

 

 

The USB out on the Yamaha is only a 2 buss. This series of Yamaha mixers isn't their best, and Yamaha preamps, while clean and servicible, are not industry leaders. the Zoom pres, for what they are, aren't bad, and actually better than most all-in-one recorders.

 

By using the busses on the Yamaha you're putting a lot of circuitry between the mic and the recorder.

[Phil O'Keefe]

You'll simply have to read the manual. I didnt see if the mixer lets you record 16 individual channels or not.

Some mixer do and some dont.

 

Stereo bus only via USB on the Yamaha MG. Unfortunately, it's not a multi-channel USB interface.

[CME]

I'll add my input. You can buy, or if you're handy with a soldering iron make, cables to patch into the insert jack and get a direct out. It's safer than the 1/2 way trick, because with them only half way in they're not locked in. Could cause a loose connection with pops/drop outs. You use a trs connector on one end and a ts on the other. I believe on the trs end you connect the t and r together and the connects to the t on the other end. Then connect the sleeves. The trs side goes to the mixer and the ts to the interface.

 

Since you said the mixer's inserts were post fader I'd consider the mic splitter. This will keep levels from changing if the fader gets moved. I believe you said it was an iso splitter. And you'll need phantom for the condensers. So I would connect the isolated side (maybe labeled transformer side) to the interface and the direct side to the mixer. Then use the phantom power on the mixer to power the mics. You'll still get a signal to the interface. In fact if you have phantom power turned on at the interface, the transformer should block any phantom power. And having the interface isolated can help protect the interface/computer on the event of a power surge.

 

You can run the direct side to the interface and get in theory a "cleaner" signal. Either way make sure whatever you connect the direct side of the splitter to is providing phantom power. Or you could be scratching your head when you aren't getting a signal.

[raagam]

 

...You can buy ... cables to patch into the insert jack and get a direct out. ...

 

 

that would be this item, Hosa DOC106:

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSDOC10

[surferbeto]

Hey all,

 

Thanks for all the good tech advice.

 

I tried the "halfway in with a 1/4" jack" setup at a rehearsal this week and it worked like a charm. Cost in new gear = $0.00! Woo hoo! So super kudos once again to Phil "Da Man!" O'Keefe on the ultimate effective low cost solution.:phil:

 

Manual confirms what Phil and Flogger59 said: the USB out from the Yamaha MG166CXUSB is the same as the stero line outs. Two bus. That's why I chose the Zoom in the first place.

 

CME and raagam's suggestion was also offered by an amp tech musician friend of mine. It might be worth that small investment for a little more peace of mind regarding reliability of the connection.

 

We determined that there is a second set of stereo line outs coming off the electric drums controller (via stereo micro plug), so with we can send those direct to the Zoom.

 

Now that we've licked that problem, it's back to the very most important task: working hard to make sure what we write and play is worth recording.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Cool - I'm glad it is all working out for you. Please let us know if there's anything else we can help you with, and also let us know when you get your recordings finished so we can check 'em out.

[surferbeto]

Hey all,

 

Mixing down 7 track recordings from our last gig and a few practice demos.

 

I need to check, but I think the outputs I'm getting from the Yamaha's effects insert plugs comes out before the mixer's compression stage. A little compression would be nice for some of the vocal tracks.

 

I'm using the Zoom's limited controls to adjust EQ a bit for a few tracks, set pan, and add a bit of reverb. Read Phil's nice little treatise on EQ to get a whiff of a clue. These already sound better (in terms of mix) than any other live recordings we've taken from the Yamaha's stereo outs. There's probably more I could do with adjusting EQ of tracks to separate them more and muddy each other up less. I remember reading something around here once about how to start doing that.

 

I imagine this is junior league stuff compared to the daily fare of you professional recording engineers, and I'm sure grateful for the opportunity to learn from you guys.

[Flogger59]

Hey all, Thanks for all the good tech advice. I tried the "halfway in with a 1/4" jack" setup at a rehearsal this week and it worked like a charm. Cost in new gear = $0.00! Woo hoo! So super kudos once again to Phil "Da Man!" O'Keefe on the ultimate effective low cost solution.:phil: Manual confirms what Phil and Flogger59 said: the USB out from the Yamaha MG166CXUSB is the same as the stero line outs. Two bus. That's why I chose the Zoom in the first place. CME and raagam's suggestion was also offered by an amp tech musician friend of mine. It might be worth that small investment for a little more peace of mind regarding reliability of the connection. We determined that there is a second set of stereo line outs coming off the electric drums controller (via stereo micro plug), so with we can send those direct to the Zoom. Now that we've licked that problem, it's back to the very most important task: working hard to make sure what we write and play is worth recording.

 

*Ahem* Post #5.

 

You can patch a compressor on an individual track and bounce that to another V-Take on the same track. Look in the manual under Bounce. If you're not using the mastering processor on the stereo buss, you can use the 8xComp on the tracks. That'll give you individual compression on each of the tracks. You can bounce the mix of that to a stereo track (not the Master), and then bounce the result of that through the mastering processor to the Master track.

[raagam]

 

... Mixing down 7 track recordings from our last gig and a few practice demos. ...

 

 

If you have any spare channels left on the Zoom, you could experiment with putting up a mic to capture the room and audience, if you wish. It may need to be nudged in time relative to the stage mics / direct instruments, esp if the room mic is far from the stage (due to the delay in sound arriving to the mic).

[surferbeto]

 

If you have any spare channels left on the Zoom, you could experiment with putting up a mic to capture the room and audience...

 

 

Yes! We discussed doing this, but then kind of ran out of time setting up. Next time. But when our rhythm guitar player gets back from vacation he'll use up input #8 and we'll be maxed on the Zoom. Could make the drums go mono to free up a track. But Seems like we should also be able to record the room and audience with a separate recorder and sync them later. Or (best solution) add my bass player's Zoom R24, sync with my Zoom R16 (they have a USB for syncing up), and record up to 16 tracks simultaneously. Woo hoo!

[surferbeto]

 

*Ahem* Post #5. You can patch a compressor on an individual track and bounce that to another V-Take on the same track. Look in the manual under Bounce. If you're not using the mastering processor on the stereo buss, you can use the 8xComp on the tracks. That'll give you individual compression on each of the tracks. You can bounce the mix of that to a stereo track (not the Master), and then bounce the result of that through the mastering processor to the Master track.

 

 

Thank you. Yes, that would do it. I guess with digital recording I can bounce and bounce and not lose any fidelity?

[Flogger59]

You'll lose less fidelity than with an analog bounce. Try to record and bounce your tracks so that the level peaks around -6 db.

[onelife]

I too use a Yamaha MG series mixer for lots of stuff including some recording.

 

What I have done is made up a bunch of mono cables with a 1/4" TRS connector on one end. By connecting the tip and ring together to the hot lead I can plug the connector fully into the insert jack without breaking the chain.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I too use a Yamaha MG series mixer for lots of stuff including some recording. What I have done is made up a bunch of mono cables with a 1/4" TRS connector on one end. By connecting the tip and ring together to the hot lead I can plug the connector fully into the insert jack without breaking the chain.

 

Smart!

[onelife]

I connected one of the above mentioned cables to a push on-push off footswitch and used the switch to short the Tip-Ring hot lead to ground.

 

The active DI that I use for acoustic guitars has an insert jack for effects. By using the cable with the footswtich I can effectively shut off the signal through the DI when I want to change guitars quickly on stage.

[surferbeto]

I got out a magnifying glass and referred to the microglyphics of the block diagram in the way back of the manual. It appears that the effect inserts on the Yamaha mixer are in fact post-compression, post-EQ, and pre-fader. So that's all good.

 

The pretty-good-for-the-money compressors are one of the reason I chose the Yamaha mixer in the first place. It's nice to be able to use them for this application as well. Thoughtful Yamaha design serves me well yet again!