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Cameras and large screen monitors as replacements for C/R windows?


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Am I the only one who has been considering the viability of cameras and large screen LCD / LED monitors in place of the traditional control room / studio "glass"? Acoustically, it makes a heck of a lot more sense - you don't have to compromise the acoustical integrity of the wall with the glass. Considering how inexpensive even high-quality cameras and large screen monitors are today, financially it's probably cheaper than doing larger sized, traditional control room windows... but still, I'm not seeing a lot of new rooms with large screen or multi-panel C/R and studio LCD / LED monitors in place of traditional glass. Is there a flaw in the idea that I'm overlooking? idn_smilie.gif

What do you think? Are cameras throughout the studio, and large screen control room monitors, dialed-up to display whatever areas of the studio and auxiliary rooms (iso booths, etc.) you want, a reasonable alternative to "real" glass? Of course, you'd also need cameras in the control room and similar displays on the other "side" of the wall so the people in the studio and iso booths could see "into" the control room too...

One advantage that real glass can't compete with is that cameras and monitors don't have to be in adjacent rooms with traditional lines of sight in order to work. That has further advantages in terms of acoustical isolation too...

Anyway, if any of you are using a similar system, I'd love to hear about it. I suspect that eventually this will become more popular and common. What do you think?

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I have no expert opinion, but what the heck. It sounds like a good idea. I wonder if there would be too much of a disconnect between rooms as far as communication. Eye contact can be important for that, but if you're used to skype, etc, (I'm not) maybe it wouldn't be a big deal.

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I don't have a separate control room, so it's not an issue for me, but it sounds like a really good idea. I suppose camera placement would be something of a factor, making sure you could see everyone. And it would help if the musicians could see the cameras clearly so they'd know which direction to look if they need to get your attention.

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Quote Originally Posted by Lee Flier View Post
I don't have a separate control room, so it's not an issue for me, but it sounds like a really good idea. I suppose camera placement would be something of a factor, making sure you could see everyone. And it would help if the musicians could see the cameras clearly so they'd know which direction to look if they need to get your attention.
Good point about needing to make the camera positions known to the musicians... my initial thought was to place the cameras centered right above the video monitors. That way, it's a high-tech "window" - you're looking directly at them while watching them simultaneously.

Of course with multiple input sources available on many flat screen TVs today, you could probably connect more than one camera and switch between them as the need arises, or have picture within a picture to display the studio and iso booth simultaneously. Or connect it all to a wifi LAN and anyone with a laptop with a built-in camera and the network password can open it up and join in.
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Quote Originally Posted by Telestrastic

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I'm in the planning stages of a studio construction and that's always been in my plan. Way, way, way cheaper then putting in a window, and I won't have to deal with reflection issues and sound leakage. I've seen a few with video systems, it just seems like a no brainier.

 

Have you given any thought to how large you're going to go on the flat screens?
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Quote Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe

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Have you given any thought to how large you're going to go on the flat screens?

 

I have a old 42 that I'm planning on using in the control room mounted to the front CR wall and I was planning on a camera hi in a corner to watch the whole LR. I wasn't planning on doing a two way system. I've been using two rooms with out any visual for years, just talk backs... So just seeing the LR will be a huge step up for me. I have an only lap top and an iPad. I was thinking about using Skype with those to run a two way if its an issue for the talent.
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The music academy I teach at was considering doing that, but right now expanding into a recording studio just isn't an option. Down the line we still hope to do so and this is definitely something we're open to trying. I use multiple monitors in my lessons too!

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The CR at Mercenary doesn't have a window and, for a long time, didn't have a camera either. It was a lot less of a bother than you'd think. At one point, we installed a camera to watch the meters of the tape machine, but after the tape machine started seeing less use (post-Fletcher, IIRC), we moved it into the live room.

Depending on how much you want to spend, you can get into some pretty sophisticated multi-camera/multi-input systems like you'd use for either security monitoring or high-end video conferencing and have multiple images up on one screen.

I'm definitely in the windows-are-stupid camp.

-Dan.

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Windows are just such a compromise in terms of the STC / STL integrity of the wall. You build this huge, massive, air-tight wall, and then put a big hole into it with a few sheets of multi-laminate glass. With the large sizes available, you could pay for a pair of 48"-60" screens for way less than the cost of installing a large window, and the isolation between the rooms is going to remain better than if you put in the glass. No worries about it fogging, or cavity resonances, reflections, or any of the other concerns that typically come with actual glass.

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I tackled this debate a year and a half ago when I built my new studio. I opted not to do it. I would consider a video system as a last resort where cost, or existing structure is a limiting factor making it unrealistic to have glass. I've worked in studios where there was only video and while it works, as a producer I always felt somewhat compromised trying to get performances out of the artist. It's not a horrible problem, but is does affect things somewhat. It's bad enough being forced to use the talkback mic, adding another virtual communication by sight is like a double whammy. In fact, I went to great pains to set up my talkback to sound as clear as possible, because as a producer, it makes a difference. Anyway, there's a noticeable difference between being able to see each other very clearly vs. seeing each other pixelated. Again, not the end of the world, but definitely not my preference unless there isn't a realistic way to do glass.

BTW - I've never really felt that glass, when done well, is a problem with sound leakage.

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Quote Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
Windows are just such a compromise in terms of the STC / STL integrity of the wall. You build this huge, massive, air-tight wall, and then put a big hole into it with a few sheets of multi-laminate glass. With the large sizes available, you could pay for a pair of 48"-60" screens for way less than the cost of installing a large window, and the isolation between the rooms is going to remain better than if you put in the glass. No worries about it fogging, or cavity resonances, reflections, or any of the other concerns that typically come with actual glass.
Plus, you can put it somewhere you can actually see it. "Seeing the performer" is a great idea, until you put the window on the back side of a console, so it's obstructed by a 5' wide meter bridge, a couple pairs of nearfields and a half-dozen lava lamps. Now you've got something that compromises the acoustics of your room AND doesn't afford you much of a view anyways.

-Dan.
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3D versus 2D idn_smilie.gif

My rehearsal (/recording studio, again at some point hopefully!) hasn't got glass but I was thinking about getting it fitted one day, or doing a cheap camera system. I don't know...!??

I kind of like being able to peer through the windows and, maybe some of the performers need that too??

Both might be the best option? Certainly if you're lucky enough to have a couple of performances rooms you can't actually see in to!!

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In a pinch you could simply whip out an old pair of unused laptops and use their built-in webcam and display!

If you want bigger, I know Asus makes computer monitors with integrated webcam. Much simpler to set up than it looks!

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I wonder what you could do with a couple of Flip cameras? Jeez, you could port the studio floor's Flip right to your DAW PC. Then set up a 20" flat screen from Best Buy for the performers and aim the second Flip at your mug. That's a pretty cool and very cheap solution. I wonder how bad of an idea routing the 1st Flip to the DAW PC is?

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Quote Originally Posted by Badside View Post
In a pinch you could simply whip out an old pair of unused laptops and use their built-in webcam and display!

If you want bigger, I know Asus makes computer monitors with integrated webcam. Much simpler to set up than it looks!
I missed that! That's good!
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Quote Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe

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Windows are just such a compromise in terms of the STC / STL integrity of the wall. You build this huge, massive, air-tight wall, and then put a big hole into it with a few sheets of multi-laminate glass. With the large sizes available, you could pay for a pair of 48"-60" screens for way less than the cost of installing a large window, and the isolation between the rooms is going to remain better than if you put in the glass. No worries about it fogging, or cavity resonances, reflections, or any of the other concerns that typically come with actual glass.

 

But would it look as cool as real windows?
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Quote Originally Posted by TBush View Post
But would it look as cool as real windows?
IMO, it looks better. Most studio windows I've seen offer somewhat limited visibility due to size and placement constraints as well as the placement of other studio equipment and furniture. They often seem to me to be less useful than one would think.

-Dan.
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Quote Originally Posted by IsildursBane View Post
The CR at Mercenary doesn't have a window and, for a long time, didn't have a camera either. It was a lot less of a bother than you'd think.
Quote Originally Posted by chris carter View Post
I tackled this debate a year and a half ago when I built my new studio. I opted not to do it. I would consider a video system as a last resort where cost, or existing structure is a limiting factor making it unrealistic to have glass. I've worked in studios where there was only video and while it works, as a producer I always felt somewhat compromised trying to get performances out of the artist. It's not a horrible problem, but is does affect things somewhat. It's bad enough being forced to use the talkback mic, adding another virtual communication by sight is like a double whammy. In fact, I went to great pains to set up my talkback to sound as clear as possible, because as a producer, it makes a difference. Anyway, there's a noticeable difference between being able to see each other very clearly vs. seeing each other pixelated. Again, not the end of the world, but definitely not my preference unless there isn't a realistic way to do glass.

BTW - I've never really felt that glass, when done well, is a problem with sound leakage.
Glass is nearly always a weaker area in terms of studio construction and design. I think most acoustical designers would agree... it's not that it can't be done well, it's just difficult, and nearly always the "weak area" in terms of the wall's overall STC.

However, I do think I would have to agree with Chris at least about the importance of visual contact. I've worked in situations without any glass or video, and hated it. For me, as a producer, I need visual contact too. I like to conduct, to cue things, etc.

As far as the pixelated image, if it's a low resolution video system, I could definitely see that being a distraction, but I'm not sure how much it would bother me (if at all) with modern, high resolution cameras and monitors. Also, I'd think that a camera setup would also have the potential advantage of allowing you to "zoom in" on the areas of the studio that were in actual use, or the specific things you needed to be able to see for that particular overdub or whatever. If the guitarist in the C/R needs to see the drummer's face better for the cue (or whatever), you could zoom in tighter on that and give them a better view than glass might provide. idn_smilie.gif

There's always wireless remotes and a short walk down the hall and into the studio. I'm not unaccustomed to walking into the other room to interact with the musicians as needed... but I certainly want to be able to stay in contact with them when I'm working in the control room too. IMHO, clear bidirectional visual contact is essential to that.
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I would just be careful when buying cameras and displays for this purpose, as the camera and/or display may have digital processing that creates latency in the display, which would mean you'd be seeing/hearing things out of sync - especially an issue if you've got a musician tracking in the CR along with the band in the live room. I work at a multi-studio facility that has video ties among the various rooms that rarely get used, but last time we had a session that rented the cameras/displays, we had this issue.

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Quote Originally Posted by betamatt

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I would just be careful when buying cameras and displays for this purpose, as the camera and/or display may have digital processing that creates latency in the display, which would mean you'd be seeing/hearing things out of sync - especially an issue if you've got a musician tracking in the CR along with the band in the live room. I work at a multi-studio facility that has video ties among the various rooms that rarely get used, but last time we had a session that rented the cameras/displays, we had this issue.

 

Excellent point, and definitely something you'd want to check into before buying anything. Thanks for the warning!
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