hey Anderton - what's your take on the DIY resurgence

[Ed A.]

Originally posted by Mr. Donovan Whatchoo talkin bout? The amplifier repairman in Des Moines that I mentioned charges $65 an hour for his services, and he just has a 2 year associates degree.

 

Yeah, but how many hours does he charge in a week, 5 maybe? $325 isn't too much for a week's work. I'll bet there are some weeks where he has no customers.

[Deef]

Originally posted by fantasticsound OT - Hey phaeton , an acquaintance of mine has a show on Spike TV called "Trucks!" I don't have cable, so I hadn't seen it. He sent a promo pack to my work that included an episode that dealt entirely with biodiesel. After Lee mentioned it on a thread at SSS, I was thrilled to see exactly what is involved in making your own. He claims the cost per gallon (after buying the apparatus) is about 70 cents per gallon! Aye, caramba!

 

 

Anybody here subscribe to Make?

 

It applies the DIY approach to everything.

 

Volume 3 (the latest) has an article on how to make your own biodiesel. And, uh, cold fusion, too.

 

Volume 2 has an article on restoring old transistor amps.

 

Deef

[Mr. Donovan]

Hi Guys! I hope I didn

[phaeton]

Deef

 

Thanks for the reference to MakeZine...

 

What an awesome publication!

[protues9]

Well i'll tell ya... the internet does make it easy with little or almost no overhead. Coming from a variety of backgrounds myself, halloween, sci fi, music ect.. there are tons and tons of DIY home brew websites out there. About .0001% offer legit and worthy products.

 

The people behind most of these things are crude, vile people. They refuse to do legitmate work (circle K for instance), steal their ideas, back stab ect. At one time I was selling custom made halloween CDs with a guy who had a website. We ended up doing about 4 times the volume we had planned on and I had put through a few emergency orders at a CD duplication business. Well, this guy help up several orders that were worth 1 - 2k for a 10$ CD. The companies got pissed with him and yanked their accounts. He blamed me, since I couldnt keep up with demand, said quite a few choice words (well several hundread actually in a ew emails) and turns out he had another guy he was having work for him on the side that was going to produce knock offs of my CDs for cheaper.

 

Well, any good sales person would have shipped the order without the CDs and offered a refund, discount or a few freebies until it was avabile for backorder. He wasn't.

 

You may say that just may be one bad experience, but i've got about 10 years in the home brew field which i've quit other than for personal use only.. heh heh. I just couldnt take being in the same circles with people that went to halloween trade shows to spy on other peoples prodcuts and to do such things as make direct casts and molds from various props and then sell resin casts of them or things like that.

 

To come back to the music side, why should you pay 800 - 1000$ for a cloned TB303 which was made off of rolands repair shcematics (which doesn't strike anyone as being illegal?) when you could buy the real thing for 800-1,200?

 

You can do what you like.. i just have a hard time giving cash to people that have ripped off their ideas and want to take the easy way out of life. Dont get me wrong, someone who offers a service or product made up by hobbyists for hobbyists (or musicians or what ever) is a great thing. Without them , we'd be mising tons of great things that other wise wouldnt be created because the market is too niche.

 

And I read make magazine too. I welcome the trend back to home brew hobbies. Somewhere in the course of the late 80's and 90's it dissapperaed when consumer culture went high tech. i used to be part of quite a few hands on type hobby clubs when i was a kid and I think youth today really could use and is missing out on the experiece. heh.. I still think sitting around a table cracking jokes with your buddies playing D&D is way more fun then sitting in your living room alone playing socom online. Kids today are missing out on the experience of real friends and are trading them for a mutual interest. i could go on.. but i'm glad it's coming back

[Ed A.]

 

Originally posted by Mr. Donovan Ed A, are you familiar with Analog Man guitar effects? http://www.analogman.com/ They

[phaeton]

I know where that is in Danbury. I'm not familiar with their pedals, but they do seem to have a really distinctive DIY look from the photos.

 

I've seen pics of the inside of some Analogman pedals. They look pretty nice- silkscreened and etched PCB, perfect solder joints, good layout and well-thought out. All the stuff that separates the men from the boys and the serious guys from the hacks. And while there's nothing wrong with building stuff just for the sake of building it and enjoying it *this* is the sort of attention to detail you've gotta have if you want to build stuff to sell. It has to be top notch and perfect throughout.

 

But hey, fortunately for home stuff you can go right on ahead and mount stompbox circuits in PVC, stuff theremins in soap dishes or build guitar amplifiers out of Rubbermaid™ tubs...

 

In a way it's kind of fun to do things without that sort of 'need for professionalism' hanging over your head. Sure, you still want to make your projects as good as they can be, but it's also nice to have the boundless creativity to build something as beautiful or hideous as you want.

 

protues9

I've never really known a world without a 'DIY' perspective. All my existence i've been the sort to packrat stuff and build bizarre and useless contraptions out of them. I always enjoy sharing my stuff and seeing other people's stuff, but up until the WWW seeing anyone else doing this sort of thing was really really rare for me. But now i think that the internet will bring DIY types together a lot, and that will be good.

 

 

(sorry to ramble again)

[protues9]

Oh i havent either. In fact my 3 year old son is getting into the habbit! he already keeps talking about a few ideas I had for stuff for halloween. I just noticed it sort of died in the late 80s and 90's and made a comeback with computer case customizing. Of course, keep in mind that were just in 80's part 2 right now and given with kids that emulate what their parents did when they were younger, it may not last too long! ha ha. I'm curious to see how long it hangs about.

 

And actually www.hackaday.com is a much better site than make zine, which seems to discuss the same topics after hackaday gets them (which is updated daily). check it out!

[phaeton]

Hack a day is cool too! A little warezy maybe, but still cool.

 

Thanks for the link!

[Scodiddly]

As somebody who's found himself hanging out the boutique sign, I can definitely say that the Internet has made a huge difference. I've been fixing and soldering and such since I was a kid, but maybe a two years ago I started fooling around with microphones, specifically the little Panasonic condensor capsules and the "TapeOp $20 omni" article. Then I started hanging out on a forum here and there, and subscribing to a micbuilding email list. Then somebody on the email list managed to contact one of those Chinese mic factories and arrange a group buy of more professional capsules... and by last fall I found myself with something worthy of the term "product".

 

Now from there to actually selling stuff is another big step, and that's where the herd gets culled, you know? I already had a little business doing repairs, so I had some sense of how to handle money, sales tax, inventory, customer relations, etc. Having worked in the past for a tiny little PA speaker company taught me a lot of that stuff too. But you have to have the ethic that you're going to be a professional, that everything you sell is going to be 100% solid, and that all your customers will be happy customers.

 

Overall I'd say that I'm still doing this because I love doing this, not because I'm expecting a lot of money. I have managed to make enough money to break even and a bit beyord on the original "hobby" of building mics. And if I keep at it and my customers brag enough to their friends maybe I'll be able to make a living at it. But I'm not turning away repair jobs or other work at this point.

[MorePaul]

so anyone here moved over to the DSP world?

 

I know there are a few dev guys on the keyboard forum

[philbo]

 

Originally posted by Anderton Well funny you should bring that up. I just moved to Santa Fe and in the process had to leave most of my lab and old parts behind. But I thought about it...hadn't revised Electronic Projects for Musicians forever...it was time to start over using today's parts, today's techniques. Maybe it's time for EPFM 2006 or something!

 

 

Hey, Craig, if you follow up on this idea, take a look at THAT Corp. - they make some really awesome building block chips:

http://thatcorp.com/icprod.html

 

(High dynamic range / low noise Preamps, dynamics processors, VCAs and the like.)

[Anderton]

Indeed, the THAT stuff is cool and it looks like Analog Devices isn't slacking off either...maybe it is time for EPFM 2006.

[Mark Hammer]

Is it time for an EPFM III? Dear lord, yes. With the death of just about every domestic hobby electronics magazine, the virtual departure of Thomas Henry and Jules Rykebusch from the scene, the apparent non-existence of Nicholas Boscorelli, and the incredible change in materials, components and construction techniques available to the hobbyist, yer damn right it's time.

 

When the last edition came out, the world of ICs was different. The availability of multi-pole stompswitches was different, press-n-peel was but a mere glimmer in someone's eye, layout software was only for big ticket commercial production houses, 16mm pots (and smaller) were special order items available for only manufacturers, 3080 OTAs could actually be bought, the 3PDT stompswitch did not exist, and Hammond chassis were known and available to only a few.

 

From a marketing stance, the question is whether, with the plethora of resources available electronically (such as the diystompboxforum), there is sufficient need for such a book. IN one sense, the answer is a sort of "No", because of the plethora of online resources, and the ridiculously low prices that some gear can be had for these days (the new Danelectro distortion pedals are cheaper than anything Mike Matthews could *ever* offer, and when you convert 1981 dollars to 2005 dollars...well, why build?). On the other hand, having a huge warehouse of bits and pieces here and there scattered over the electronic planet is not the same as having an *integrated* book.

 

Certainly one of the older Anderton books I appreciated, even years after its publication, was the "Guitar Gadgets" book. One of the things it did nicely was provide a systems approach to effects, which I personally found useful in guiding my thinking. The types of features and effects categories that have emerged since that time are not dramatically larger, but large enough to warrant some sort of restatement.

 

Here's an idea that might expedite production of such a book. How about an editted book with chapters by different people? My model here is something like Ballou's Audio Cyclopedia. RG Keen has a fabulous book on PCB layout for musical effects. A distillation of that would make a great chapter. Maybe Robert Keeley could contribute a chapter on modding commercial effects. Jack Orman has a number of interesting technical explanations and voyages on his site. Extending the life of Thomas Henry's mini-books on using certain (still available) chips like the NE570 and OTAs would be a community service. John Simonton's views on interfacing non-synth instruments with analog synths would be worth the price of admission. Kevin O'Connor has to have something to say. Certainly some of the folks in the boo-teek business have to have something to say about packaging challenges and best practices. What about a chapter on adapting/designing effects for bass, acoustic instruments, keyboards, voice? And how DO us mere mortals work those SMT chips into our projects? And though it may be reaching for the moon, we absolutely need to hear something from Bob Moog while we are still blessed with his presence.

 

In short, what we need is not necessarily an EPFM III but an Audio Cyclopedia of FX. A vast survey of design, fabrication, and packaging techniques, materials and tools available or use, how to integrate design and packaging with use context (e.g., studio vs hobbyist vs gigging musician), a pedal-oriented semiconductor data library (on CD of course).

 

On the diystompboxforum, the question intermittently comes up once or twice a year "I'm a newbie, and was wondering what books you folks would recommend?". Invariably, all fingers point to EPFM (and Horowitz and Hill), but as time marches on it becomes harder to do so. Not because the book was not a lifesaver at the time, but because it addressed 90% of the things we had to think about at the time of its publication, and only 10% of such concerns now. There is so much more known and so much more to think about.

 

So, the short answer is that simply another EPFM with a fuzz, phaser and compressor using 2005 chips might be of interest to some. A one-stop-shopping encyclopedia of effects-related knowledge in tandem with some canned designs would be absolute killer - the book that EVERYONE would unhesitatingly recommend.

 

There. Persuasion enough?

 

Oh, and thanks for the thank-you letter you sent me some 20 years ago, Craig. I had an article in DEVICE, way back when, and you popped me a note shortly after moving on to EM to offer a belated thanks. I still hav that letter somewhere.

[DRHDRH]

 

Originally posted by Anderton Indeed, the THAT stuff is cool and it looks like Analog Devices isn't slacking off either...maybe it is time for EPFM 2006.

 

 

 

Way back, I believe I was in college and bought the original EPFM. I lost it in one of my moves, if you ever came out with an update, I would buy it immediately.

 

 

DRHDRH

[Robert Keeley]

Thanks Mark for the mention! Great to see you here! I would be honored to give a look into the modding business. With 18 people now at Keeley Electronics.... It is WAY more than a simple EE like me would have ever imagined. I think I could provide a look into maintaining customer service over periods of time and how to limit what you do as much as how to control growth. Not that I've managed any of that, just that I've given it a good try!

rk

[Mark Hammer]

My pleasure, Bob.

 

I think one of the things that people would like to learn is what one might call the "decision-making process" when it comes to after-market mods. As I've commented in other places previously, it's not like these commercial pedals are pieces of crap. Indeed, the very reason you can HAVE 18 people on the Keeley payroll is because a lot of folks have bought these pedals, like just *about* everything, but want just a little more ketchup ont heir fries, just a little more syrup on their pancakes, and just a little more stuffing with their turkey. Sometimes that involves a sort of universal "fix" to a circuit that was initially well-conceived, but j-u-s-t didn't go the whole distance. Sometimes that involves custom solutions for players with specific circumstantial needs.

 

So, how DOES one go about examining a commercial product for aspects that are capable of being "rehabilitated" or hotrodded? Certainly, it is not always the same default strategy of yanking out the op-amps and replacing them with JRC4558DD's , or just sticking in a bigger value cap on the input. It is the "zen" of how all the parts and circuit fragments fit together, the impact of things upstream on things downstream (or is it the opposite? I always get those two confused:o ).

 

It's not just after-market mods, that prompts this query. It applies similarly to back-to-the-drawing-board redesigns. I recently threw together a bass fuzz just because the mood struck me. It sounded alright, but not...perfect. Okay, so how do I go about a rethink of this project and make it behave as conceived? *THAT'S* the thought process I'm interested in assisting others acquiring. Certainly the list of possible mods that became part of EPFM II helped to facilitate that for myself, because it provided choice-points and rationales for those choice-points.

 

Now that players have access to and knowledge of so much stuff, both in-production and vintage, the desire to turn sows' ears into silk purses, or to score ones self vintage pedal X at low cost by simply changing a few tactical components in pedal Y is that much stronger. The belief that it could be better, or louder, or more intense, or more surprising, or just more unique, permeates the pedal universe, and somehow, swapping a cap seems just that much more satisfying than spending a couple of hours with Pro-Tools, tweaking the tone.

[phaeton]

Okay, so how do I go about a rethink of this project and make it behave as conceived? *THAT'S* the thought process I'm interested in assisting others acquiring.

 

Fwiw that's just the sort of thing i'm looking for- I can usually figure out how stuff works, but i'm not quite there yet on the "for result X change the value of Y to [number]" stuff. EPFM has a few mentions of this but i'm sure there is so much more to do. There is lots of really dry straight-ahead electronics study material that explains what happens to current and voltage oscillations when you swap capacitors or change transistor bias, but very little of it describes it in the terms of an audio or musical application.

 

There is some stuff out there but it's few and far between. Lot easier than about 10-15 years go, tho. Seems like "music electronics" is almost its own science apart from just "electronics". Same rules, same theory and same parts, but different applications, goals and expectations- sometimes "music electronics" circuits are designed to encourage the very same things that the usual electronics folks are trying to suppress in their circuits, and verse vica....

 

It's still fun though!

 

And i toadilly agree that EPFM is a great book but it's about time for a revision. Very little wrong with the circuits themselves other than they use a lot of opamps that are either obsolete or have been replaced by cheaper, better performers.

[Gabriel E.]

Great thread.

 

I am one of those "home built" guys starting a "boutique" cottage operation about a month after buying a soldering iron.

 

Actually, it's been 16 or 17 years since I first bought a soldering iron as a teenager. I messed around with guitar circuits for years before getting into tube amps 5 years ago.

 

I don't have any formal training but I'm really good at figuring out how stuff works and I've done a lot of reading.

 

As of right now, I'm finishing a prototype amplifier and I just started an LLC. I should have a product for sale by early 2006.

 

I don't expect to get rich doing this but I know how to run a profitable business and I figure if I'm gonna bust my ass, it may as well be doing something I love.

 

There are a couple of things going on here:

 

1) The internet. Research is easy. Access to parts and services vendors is easy. Communication with others who share your interest is easy. Most importantly, access to potential customers is easy (or at least easier).

 

In the past there were magazines and books but those represented a one-way vertical movement of information. Now information moves horizontally as well.

 

2) Because of #1, musicians are a lot more knowledgeable and picky about their gear. There are a lot more niches than there used to be. Or maybe the niches always existed but now they're easier to recognize.

[phaeton]

As of right now, I'm finishing a prototype amplifier and I just started an LLC. I should have a product for sale by early 2006.

 

 

Cool. Please spam my PM box when you release this. I'm curious.

[C. Bradley]

Originally posted by phaeton Bluestrat is a badass.... Ever listen to those amps he built?

First time I've ever been accused of that..... I just read and tinker and find out what works and what doesn't.

 

I couldn't get the Bluestrat moniker on here.

 

I do the DIY thing for two main reasons:

 

1) I'm cheap

2) I like to experiment and have unique items that I made myself.

 

I've thought about making pedals for money, but I work a full-time job and don't believe that I want to spend all of my spare time fitting effects into enclosures and soldering components onto boards. Amplifiers would be easier for me, but I don't want to have the legal issues involved if some dip-{censored} opens up the chassis and sticks his fingers on the connections to the big blue cylinders.

 

If I do anything, I'll write a book with several projects. I started doing just that, but I've stalled.

[Anderton]

 

And i toadilly agree that EPFM is a great book but it's about time for a revision. Very little wrong with the circuits themselves other than they use a lot of opamps that are either obsolete or have been replaced by cheaper, better performers.

 

 

I'd be the first to agree. The problem is I don't really have a lab setup any more, and no real way to come up with the board prototypes and such. One of these days...

[phaeton]

I'd be the first to agree. The problem is I don't really have a lab setup any more, and no real way to come up with the board prototypes and such. One of these days...

 

Yeah i know Such is life! That's why I thought maybe a collaborative effort would be the ticket, but it's your book and your baby so it's your call

 

I had a nice little setup, myself, but a somewhat unexpected move has upheaved all that. I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel now though...

 

First time I've ever been accused of that..... I just read and tinker and find out what works and what doesn't.

 

You know which amp I'm talking about Sorry bout the "bluestrat" moniker not being available, but welcome over!

 

(Dumb) question for Craig or whomever- Looks like i'll be moving in with the gf soon. She's got a couple of birds- a cherry-headed conure and something else (I'm not really a bird person, sorry). Anyways, does this automatically mean "no soldering in the house"?

[MorePaul]

Just in a different room (door closed) with evacuative ventillation - though that's good for you too

 

The biggest problem I found is that hey can be curious and like to pull all the pretty colored wires out of a breadboard.

Seriously, they like to manipulate things...esp "interesting" things that their friends (you) are interested in

I used to go through drafting pucks decently regularly b/c of a Blue front Amazon and a coackatiel

[phaeton]

Just in a different room (door closed) with evacuative ventillation - though that's good for you too

 

The image is huge so i'll just post the link to it:

 

http://home.mia.net/~phaeton/Anklebiter/fumefan.jpg

 

That's my makeshift fumefan. I actually drew up a design for a real, honest to goodness evacuative ventilation system that would blow the fumes outside, i just never built it. It's on the docket though, i think on page 72

 

The missus says that we can't use teflon pans or let anyone smoke in the house. Although birds are little shells of pure evil and they hateses me forever, i don't want to make them sick or miserable

 

The biggest problem I found is that hey can be curious and like to pull all the pretty colored wires out of a breadboard.

 

I don't know how if they'll get out much, at least not for awhile. They're kind of in a bad situation and it has made them a little unruly. It will take some time for them to get re-accustomed to handling and stuff. She's also talking about pet rats and stuff. At least she understands when I say I want to put a self-closing screen door on my "science room" with a metal kickplate on the bottom I don't mind the fish at all.

 

What can I say? I got hooked up with the woman that digs animals.