Saw the Bose Personalized Amplification System salespitch today...

[Drumr]

you only know what it sounds like where you are onstage

 

That's true, and that is what is so great. It sounds really good to ME...that's what this is all about. It's like being on your very own CD.

 

I played for years listening thru crappy monitors and getting blown away by screaming guitars, never, ever knowing how we sound out front, and having to put up with it sounding bad to ME.

 

Now the audience; yes, it is not EXACTLY the same for them. It is a bit quieter, but the fall-off in sound pressure level is very gradual. We have done SPL readings. This system throws a long way. If you are in a bar band, believe me it's enough.

 

Audiences tell me over and over, all the time how great it sounds at different positions in the room, and how clean and clear it is. But even if they weren't so enthused about the sound, I personally would still use it because it sounds good to me.

 

Yeah, they're all pretty much in denial about that. They have probably never studied acoustics

 

Exactly right! I haven't studied acoustics more than what I need in my recording studio environment. I just want to play and have it sound good to me. My audience isn't complaining either.

 

This might go a long way toward explaining why they sound very thin out in the audience compared to onstage.

 

We don't sound thin...probably the one thing audience folks had mentioned in the beginning was that our bassist was playing a bit too loud. He has since learned to control himself.

 

I can't really tell you in words what the Bose PAS system has meant to me (nor would a graph explain it). I had all but given up playing out live due to the weight of my gear, and not knowing how we were sounding when I was having to run the sound myself from the drumkit. I have been reborn unto this approach, it works for me, and that's all that matters to me, so I probably won't be responding to you much more about it.

 

If you are young, and strong, and love to spend lots of time tinkering with all your gear, and playing as loud as you want and not worrying about your audience being able to chat during your set, well, the Bose is NOT for you. If you are playing really big venues...the Bose might not be for you.

 

I could go on, but you probably are tired of reading and think I'm nuts. You aren't too far off

[Drumr]

 

BUT, you only know what it sounds like where you are onstage, not in the middle of the audience

 

 

Does the soundman sitting in the middle of an audience know what kind of pain the guy is in who is sitting 10' from a pair of 18" topped with two dual 15" cabs with horns?

[blue2blue]

 

Originally posted by Duck King Bose buyers = idiots

 

 

I'm among those who have been skeptical of Bose marketing claims for many decades.

 

But a statement like that is just bloody stupid. The sign of someone who's spoiling for a fight and doesn't care how low he has to stoop to find it.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by Drumr Does the soundman sitting in the middle of an audience know what kind of pain the guy is in who is sitting 10' from a pair of 18" topped with two dual 15" cabs with horns?

 

 

Sure. We walk around for just that purpose, something the musicians aren't at liberty to do unless they run wireless.

 

I guess whether the guy in front is in pain or not depends on how loud the overall level is. Personally, I don't like to work bar shows that loud. In an auditorium sort of show, or an outdoor show, you have flown speakers and the front row sonic "sunburn" isn't an issue. Outdoor shows often have satellite speaker stations that are time aligned to the stage, which also helps even out the volume vs. distance thing.

 

In bars, at rock shows, what I see is the opposite of what you suggest. People crowd forward to get right up against the stage. They're not getting barbecued in that position because they're inside the coverage of the main horn drivers. Being an experienced soundman, I have front fills to cover that dead zone. They're not that loud at all, it's more an issue of how loud the bands' backline is. People generally vote with their feet and I'm always watching to learn from that.

 

Speaking of backline, I'm all for the sound being at a reasonable level onstage. It's not up to me, since the musicians need to get their tone and be comfortable, but small guitar amps with good tone seem optimal. It's much, much easier to get a good mix at a reasonable level out front if the onstage sound is kept moderate.

 

And this is really where the PAS gets a lot of its effect from, the elimination or minimization of backline.

 

Honestly I'm cool with whatever the musicians want to play through, though big guitar stacks on a small stage make my job next to impossible. PAS is fine, whatever floats your boat. Really, I only ever post about the PAS when a proponent makes a claim I consider exaggerated, and only then to try to present both sides of the case.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by MrKnobs Yeah, they're all pretty much in denial about that. I think that might be because they haven't studied acoustics.

 

Well I don't need to study acoustics to know what the mix sounds like onstage vs. in the audience... since I can walk around and find out. And we've also done recordings from out in the audience to ascertain whether we could trust what we were hearing onstage.

 

Although the sound of the overall mix changes a bit as you gain distance from the stage, we have determined that we can indeed trust the balance that we're hearing onstage and know that it's translating to the audience the way we intend it. And for our purposes as performers, that's all we really need to know.

[Lee Flier]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs And this is really where the PAS gets a lot of its effect from, the elimination or minimization of backline.

 

 

Well if that were the case, one could minimize the backline with a conventional PA and it would sound similar. It really doesn't. So far as I'm concerned the main "effect" of the PAS that makes it different is the way it throws, the use of one source per player, and the fact that you don't have to use conventional monitors.

[Drumr]

Mr. Knobs,

 

Thank you for that thoughtful and kind reply. I see your point, and agree that what works for us is what matters.

 

Bose claims about fall-off of sound aside, the systems work great for my band. We are not using them as bose would have us, one per player, but share two among 4. This diminishes its full usefullness a bit, but still, it gives us all WE need. I like to play quietly.

 

I have also DJ'd with it to great results and flowing compliments. It's very nice as a PERSONAL AMPLIFICATION SYSTEM, as its name implies.

 

I love the damn thing and would do most anything I could to further Boses contributions to live music. The PAS camp is a devoted one even though we do all face challenges with the system. Bose is a company who is right there in the field with us, listening and helping us out with our problems in making the transition.

 

In the end...The Bose PAS is intended as an "acoustic" instrument in itself and must be learned and used where it's intended. What it does for an acoustic guitar is nothing short of amazing. What it's done for my bass drum is...quite adequate for my situation.

[Drumr]

 

Sure. We walk around for just that purpose, something the musicians aren't at liberty to do unless they run wireless.

 

 

That's why it works for us..we aren't at liberty.

 

Also...you are a soundman, and from your point I would not want to hear about the Bose approach, because it precludes the use of a soundman. Bad for you.

 

But it is like the Drum Machine scare of the '80's. Drummers will be out of a job! Didn't happen did it?

 

There is a place for soundmen and big shows, and the Bose system and little shows.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Drumr That's why it works for us..we aren't at liberty. I understand your point of view very well! I'm an ex-soundperson, having opted to be a performer again. So now it's ME who gets to worry whether it's sounding good out front! Also...you are a soundman, and from your point I would not want to hear about the Bose approach, because it precludes the use of a soundman. Bad for you. Nah, not bad for me. I don't do sound for a living anymore, and even when I did it was big venues that the PAS wouldn't work in (10,000+ seats). Whatever is good for music is good for me. But it is like the Drum Machine scare of the '80's. Drummers will be out of a job! Didn't happen did it? They aren't? It didn't? Hmm.... it's currently pretty hard here in Austin to get a really good drummer, I suspect they're all too busy making big bucks cutting those drum loop CDs so all the songwriters and bedroom musicians can make even higher quality demos nobody will ever hear. There is a place for soundmen and big shows, and the Bose system and little shows. You might be surprised, but I agree with you. In fact, Julie & I do a lot of duo stuff without the band where the PAS would be just perfect, I suspect. You know, the kind of show where you use a couple of PA on a stick boxes and put them a little behind you so you can monitor through them as well as having an idea what kind of mix you have going out. I'm sure the PAS would be far superior doing that job. Like I mentioned earlier, and Lee just mentioned, there is a certain quality of sound that they get that a full range system doesn't. I'm sure it is partially the spatial cues like BOES says, but I think it also has a lot to do with not using any horn drivers for the high frequencies. Horns just don't sound like speakers, speaker always sound smoother and more "real".

 

Terry D.

[where02190]

there's already a tried and true method of both eliminating the effects of onstage amps and preventing the pain fo bad wedge mixes...IEM's. However many musicians won't take the time to learn about them, and thus have a bad first expierence, so they think they don't work for them. I've yet to have a musician go back to conventional wedges once they heard a proper IEM mix.

 

And I'm not too worried about the PAS ttaking any work from me either.

[franknputer]

IEM's are great, if you have a sound person to run them.

 

Otherwise, the PAS offers an alternative.

[Lee Flier]

 

Originally posted by franknputer IEM's are great, if you have a sound person to run them.

 

 

Yes, and if you like them. Not everybody does even if they do take the time to learn about them. It's just like with any piece of gear (including the PAS) - some people are going to like them and some aren't, and that's why choice is good.

[Phil O'Keefe]

You know, I've heard the Bose PAS exactly one time... and played through them exactly once. So take that into consideration... with so little experience hearing / using them, I can't make any hard and fast judgements...

 

I found the sound of them, out in the audience (location: my fairly large backyard, with the "stage" up aganst the cinderblock exterior wall of my studio, and under a patio overhang) to be just a bit on the bright side. Nothing really overly objectionable. Vocal clarity was quite good, and the blend for Lee's band was also very, very good... but they did seem to lack a little "thump" IMO.

 

The strangest thing, for me personally, was singing into them. Again, I only did that once, on one song, but when I pulled off of the mic on a part when I was singing louder (trying to "work" the mic a bit), I actually perceived my volume increasing, which really kind of threw me for a loop. For some reason, when I moved away from the mic, my head position put me into a spot where I heard myself better somehow. I was able to hear myself fine when right on top of the mic, but I got even louder when I increased the mic to mouth distance. It really confused me. I don't know what caused it - maybe it's how they "throw", or maybe it was user error on my part and lack of experience with the system, or maybe it was how they were set up and how things were reflecting off the back wall or whatever... but for me, that part would take some "getting used to".

 

Has anyone else experienced anything like that when using the PAS?

 

I don't want to say "they suck", because IMO, they don't. I greatly enjoyed hearing What The...? (Lee's band), and the sound was better than I was expecting to hear from that system with a rock band playing outdoors. Are they for everyone? Nope... I don't think they'd work well (nor were they designed for) a loud band in a very large venue... but for the right band (in the right venue), who knows how to play together and balance themselves (and who listen to each other), I think they can work well.

[Hanshananigan]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe The strangest thing, for me personally, was singing into them. Again, I only did that once, on one song, but when I pulled off of the mic on a part when I was singing louder (trying to "work" the mic a bit), I actually perceived my volume increasing , which really kind of threw me for a loop. For some reason, when I moved away from the mic, my head position put me into a spot where I heard myself better somehow. I was able to hear myself fine when right on top of the mic, but I got even louder when I increased the mic to mouth distance. It really confused me. I don't know what caused it - maybe it's how they "throw", or maybe it was user error on my part and lack of experience with the system, or maybe it was how they were set up and how things were reflecting off the back wall or whatever... but for me, that part would take some "getting used to". Has anyone else experienced anything like that when using the PAS?

 

During the demo I saw, the pitchman had us stand on a stepladder to show that the sound level drops draumatically if you are close to and above the level of the tower. It seemed rather odd to me that they could develop a system using round speakers that could deliver 180 sound horizontally but not vertically. That got me thinking that the "brightness" of the PAS's sound might fill a space better by bouncing off walls and people and such, but that this coverage is somewhat reduced in an open outdoor venue like a back yard? That might explain why "dead spots" would be on stage- what you hear in a club is sound from the speaker plus reflection, but there is little or no reflection outdoors?

[Lee Flier]

Phil,

 

I know you told me on the phone once how that had happened to you (that your level increased as you stepped away from the mic), and I think that's very odd. I've never had that happen! If anything, in our experience the sound drops off a little quicker as you move away from the mic than with a conventional speaker. It's possible that the guy who brought the PAS's had prototype systems which behaved a little oddly... we had prototypes for a few months and they did a few weird things that the production models we got later, don't do.

 

And we didn't have as much low end at your party as we normally do, either. We usually have more subs than we were using at your place.

[where02190]

Phil, they also have a pretty hefty compressor that is active almost all the time, and a major limiter built in. The limiter has a very high threshold, but even at modest volume the compressor kicks in, and there's no way around it, it's part of the electronics, with no user controls. It's pretty good sounding, and not a big squash (the limiter has that covered) so that was probably what you heard was the compressor opening up when you backed off.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Hanshananigan During the demo I saw, the pitchman had us stand on a stepladder to show that the sound level drops draumatically if you are close to and above the level of the tower. It seemed rather odd to me that they could develop a system using round speakers that could deliver 180 sound horizontally but not vertically. This is what makes a linear array work. A single speaker radiates in every direction, including up and down. Because the height and width of the area covered doubles every time the distance from the speaker doubles, the same amount of power must cover four times the previous area (doubled vertical dispersion times doubled horizontal dispersion). Thus, the inverse square law where sound pressure falls off with the square of the distance. In acoustics, as in every other part of life, there's no free lunch. The PAS restricts the dispersion in the vertical direction so that more power can be preserved as the sound travels in the horizontal direction. This is somewhat akin to cupping your hands over your mouth when you yell, or using a horn in front of a driver, in the sense that all those methods restrict the dispersion area in order to get better throw in the desired direction. Unlike horn lenses, a linear array uses the sound pressure from the speaker(s) above and below to restrict the vertical dispersion. There are problems with this approach, just as there are with using horn loading, but the problems are different. In the case of the PAS array, there is comb filtering to overcome. But the PAS is an active array, so I would presume that a great deal of effort has been put into the EQ section to overcome this problem to some degree. (This is somewhat of a simplification, and I could go into great detail here, but I think I'll refrain - unless BOSEENGINEER shows up). One problem that cannot be overcome is the fact that in every linear array the inverse square law still kicks in after some distance from the speaker, which is entirely dependent on the height of the array and the frequency of the sound. The graph I posted earlier shows my estimation of the transition distances for the PAS, according to my own rough calculations. If I had access to measure the actual field, I would love to do so as I have some excellent tools for the job. My personal, non-instrument observations at a couple of shows have reassured me my calculations are in the ballpark. That got me thinking that the "brightness" of the PAS's sound might fill a space better by bouncing off walls and people and such, but that this coverage is somewhat reduced in an open outdoor venue like a back yard? That might explain why "dead spots" would be on stage- what you hear in a club is sound from the speaker plus reflection, but there is little or no reflection outdoors? That is exactly right, and affects every sort of PA. Much of the sound heard on stage is reflections from the nearby walls and ceiling, what I call the "fog of jam." Usually pretty confusing and less than high fidelity! Outdoor concerts require considerably more power from the sound reinforcement and the monitors to pull off, because the reflections indoors were providing a sizeable portion of the sound pressure level to both the musicians and the audience. In return for this penalty, though, the sound engineer gets a huge benefit of being able to "paint" on a clear canvas, meaning any reverb you apply is what you get, you don't fight the room or hall reverb and early reflections. Also, the sound of the backline is very small compared to the mains, so again it's a clean canvas to work with. Indoors you find yourself generating "correction" signals to the stage sound (adding treble, boosting vocals, adding lows to the kick, etc) whereas outdoors you are generating the total sound the audience will hear. Of course the "clean canvas" is a big problem for the monitor engineer, but that's (usually) not my problem. Outside board tapes, assuming the system is EQ'd fairly flat, are a true representation of what the band really sounds like. Whenever I work for a band outdoors, I make a stereo recording to my laptop and immediately play back a cut through the system, whenever possible. The musicians are generally stunned at the result since they (generally) have never heard themselves from the audience perspective before. That's always a great moment for me as a soundman since at that moment all trust issues are resolved. Now if it wasn't for that damned WIND thing outdoors......

 

Terry D.

[Drumr]

 

but they did seem to lack a little "thump"

 

 

For those accustomed to big PA, big SUB thump, yes, it's a change and takes getting used to. My own kick drum now sounds like a real kick drum only louder. The Big PA sound is actually artificial, in that a bass drum in a room doesn't really sound like the sound a monster PA can give them. And we have all come to expect that...even little old ladies listening to the country bands at our yearly Fun Festival here in B-town.

 

It's an adjustment thing and has been a problem for me, but I am finding ways to get more from my kick as time goes on.

 

The PAS is an instrument, it takes practice.

 

As for the bright sound, yes it is, and we just trim down the treble on the remote a bit and everything is fine. Presets for given vocal mics will do the same thing.

 

I prefer turning down brightness over trying to add it and getting brittleness.

 

MHO only.

 

Pete

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by Drumr he Big PA sound is actually artificial

 

 

Not if it's properly tuned it's not.

[Drumr]

I didn't say it sounds "bad"...it's just not really real in the true sense of a real bass drum. And I'm not talking about the (tuning of the) BASS DRUM ITSELF, you can mic a cardboard box thru a great PA and make it sound awesome. I'm talking about the Big PA processed sound INTERPRETATION OF the kick drum thru a BIG system. Don't get me wrong, I love that huge kick sound, dearly! And I still want to hear it at big concerts.

 

But that sound that I love, is not the same sound as walking in a room and listening to a bass drum being hit. Sure, adding more click to the top and some boom to the bottom while controlling the sustain makes for a great sounding kick. I am just saying that for me the Bose system cannot duplicate "that" sound, it can add any frequency you want, but I've come to enjoy the Boses more "acoustic" picture of the drum itself.

 

Whew. I'm almost sorry I started all this. It's really hard to get thru to non-believers. And it's hard for me to explain what I really feel on a keyboard.

 

Bottom line, don't knock it till you try it. (You can try it for 45 days, money back guarantee.) Why not?

 

 

[franknputer]

 

Originally posted by Drumr The Big PA sound is actually artificial

 

 

 

Originally posted by where02190 Not if it's properly tuned it's not.

 

 

Oh come on - yes it is! 99% of the time, a mixed rock drum kit does not sound like what the actual drums sound like.