August 2005 Editorial - The Wrong Kind of Copy Protection

[MorePaul]

 

And will this protection prevent music theft? Of course not. Music thieves will use a CD player

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger The argument that digital copies are more of a problem because they don't degrade like magnetic tape is also a bit of a crock, because MP3 quality is about as crap as tape.

 

 

That might not always be the case one thing to consider is that "digital" != mp3. Mp3 is only one data format and it's lossy

 

A problem with analog copies is that they are generation dependent...a 5th gen is generally just not as true as a 2nd gen

 

with something like a lossy compression scheme, the loss only happens at the front end and successive gens don't suffer

[Alndln2]

Originally posted by Anderton At least with dongle-based copy protection, you can run the software anywhere you like as long as you have the dongle and the installation disc.

True,but if the dongle gets damaged you could be in worse shape trying to get another one and re-authorizing,and if the companies try to take advantage of that via planned obsolesence(as it seems their doing in some cases) they will suffer quite a backlash eventually.I personally think the only solution is to drop(or re-write) the current software liscense terms and sell the software to their customers rather than restricting their purchase,and limit it to indivual serial numbers with indvidual encryptions actually inserted into the code string,this way when software gets distributed illegally,they can trace the source making it a lot riskier to distribute.Even though there will still be piracy, I believe this solution to be more effective than the current ones.At the moment,software companies are paying companies like Syncrosoft or Pace for solutions that either don't work outright ,or stall the piracy for a couple of months at best and even then,that was only once and Pace has no victory's to speak of whatsoever.and actually introduce performance and stability problems by and large,hurting the companies even further.I'd be willing to pay more for software if I could "own" it and knowing full well if I distributed it illegally,it could be traced directly to my purchase via personal encryption.I could live with that type of copy protection quite easily,and I think the company's would be better off as well in the long run.

[MorePaul]

I'm a little unclear on the implementation

Seems like inserting a key directly in a core exe or statically linked require recompile for each copy? (and I suppose a different maser for each CD if that's the distr. model)

If js stored in a resource file or a dynamically linked file -- the pirate cold just tumble that.

for lesser priced SW at least the old "cash copy" could be distributed

I guess there are a few advantages for a company to play the "license, not sale" game, but that hasn't been holding up particularly well in the courts


I may be very well misunderstanding the implementation or not seeing a hole somewhere - just my initial impressions of a couple of potential problems

[ZenFly]

I agree with Craig's post.

I'd like to add: tell the manufacturers of DVD's to take the stupid "FBI...don't steal this .." warnings off all DVDs.

This warning is moot to the pirates out there and insulting, annoying and timewasting to everyone else.

On the Bewitched season 1 set, if you choose individual episodes, that stupid warning comes up every time.

amazing.

As for CDs fair use should be enough. The pirates will find a way through P to P or whatever. For me that has allways been to much of a hassle and again time wasting.

Here's another newsflash...ripping mp3's to an iPod (from the net or anywhere else) does not sound as good as ripping the original CD.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by ZenFly As for CDs fair use should be enough.

 

 

I'm not understanding this part

[ZenFly]

Originally posted by MorePaul


I'm not understanding this part [/quote

Fair use laws as applied to copywrite..If I buy it, I can use it (make a copy) of it for my personal use.

Not to distribute on the internet.

[MorePaul]

Ah, that might actually fall under the enjoyment of property rights as a purchaser (more along the lines of First Sale Doctrine - though that has more to do specifically with your ability to resell, it is a good conceptual benchmark for "copyrighted material as sold goods" and points to the users rights as purchaser of property)

Fair use mainly covers use of a copyrighted material (without license) for commentary or criticism and is generally transformative in nature

[kevinnem]

I must asay that I knwo of few topics that stir up as much debate as the copy protection thing.

I am not sure if it is a agument about something that is a real problem, .. or like the goverment - everyone loves to bitch about the goverment.


It is my opinion that is most cases I think the cons of copy protection out way the benifits. I would be interested spcifically in how many copyies of something where bought, because the copy protection worked.

Prehaps you can't justifi it on a case by case basis, but rather on teh ulteristic motive of just protecting your stuff so that your industry as a whole survives?

I work as a survey engineer, and there are parts of our bussiness that you simply don't make money at - we do them for teh good of the survey profession, just like everyone else.


Why do you guys think that copy protection is such a high debated topic?

My last comment is just a passing thouight about how record companys can "make" a star these days, and have all this creative genius - and money- why is it that they cann't come up with a great system that is both secure and embrased by the pubic?

A "music disc/tape ect" has not really changed in the last 20 years. And yet video has evolved. I am not saying we need the out takes on the CD, BUT maybe it would be cool to have a interview with the band giveing a short history of each song - where it come from and why it ended up like it did in teh CD jacket. OR some other creative thing that would add value to the whole system , and get people excited about going out to the music store again...


so yea, .. that is just some thoughts about copy protection of cd's on the consumer front.

AS for software - I have been screewed by stienberg so many times I no longer user there software, and advocate others not to as well, to many problems with there copy portection , and stablity issues.

[MorePaul]

Interesting questions...some thoughts..



I am not sure if it is a agument about something that is a real problem, .. or like the goverment - everyone loves to bitch about the goverment.


Some of it depends on our use (what industry you are working in, how you personally use something) and the nature (in terms of transparency) of the copy protection


I would be interested spcifically in how many copyies of something where bought, because the copy protection worked.


Like a lot of econ and scio-econ , the observations aren't really controlled so we get correlations, etc but "hard numbers" are going to be much more difficult.

Some areas (like dongle protected "gotta have it" applications for a biz ) would probably yield different conversion rates than, say, a lightly protected piece of entertainment



Prehaps you can't justifi it on a case by case basis, but rather on teh ulteristic motive of just protecting your stuff so that your industry as a whole survives?


Tough to say, some cases may be able to individually justify more easily than others, but yeah - we're back to the problem of good hard numbers

Interesting note - American copyright philosophy tends to emphasize (almost soley) the economics of copyright (similar to patents) whereas other countries (much of Europe) can tend to weight pure ownership (artistic integrity, etc) a little more



Why do you guys think that copy protection is such a high debated topic?


I guess for a couple of reasons

-IP is an intangible, so applying traditional concepts of property becomes complex (though that's really more about piracy I guess - so that may be a bit tangential)

-Copy protection is difficult both technically and from a theory standpoint-- I mean, you are trying to make something accessible AND inaccessible depending on a context
The solutions can be less-than-transparent (cause inefficiencies, compatability problems, etc), there may be noninfringing uses that are also blocked...thing of this nature

But I think many get their hackles up because it is an attempt to protect one party by abridging a freedom of action of another party...which is going to cause misgivings


My last comment is just a passing thouight about how record companys can "make" a star these days, and have all this creative genius - and money- why is it that they cann't come up with a great system that is both secure and embrased by the pubic?


I think it goes back to the technical difficulty problem -- you are trying to make something accessible and inaccessible based on a context (basically security) which is just tough (esp with something like music which is designed to be "human readable")

To compound the problem, you have adversarial intelligent agents (the pirates) specifically trying to defeat your system


A "music disc/tape ect" has not really changed in the last 20 years. And yet video has evolved. I am not saying we need the out takes on the CD, BUT maybe it would be cool to have a interview with the band giveing a short history of each song - where it come from and why it ended up like it did in teh CD jacket. OR some other creative thing that would add value to the whole system , and get people excited about going out to the music store again...


Additional content is something that may help interet, but sometimes that content is copied as well (album downloads will often have scans of at least the cover art and "extras" such as videos can be copied as well)

[kevinnem]

I have been thinking about it some more.


What really is the problem here... like lets really think about it really deep down root cause what is the issue???

We all look at a lot of sysmptoms and call them the problems, but really I can't say that I know enough about the record industry to be able to figure it out!

I think the Ipod is the next step in the whole drive of humanity to get stuff cheaper - faster- better - smaller (or bigger, depending on what your after).

Is there a break down in the econimcs - is the issue that priacy is putting company out of bussiness - or is it just a we are not makeing enough money thing.

I think - that the piracy thing has to do with 2 things with in the music industry. 1) we have these SUPER stars now. So now we have a consiolidate of the interest in to a small postion of the artists.
ex
assume 10% of the music is stolen
- if you sell 1000 cd , and the next guy does and 1000 other people do - we have a total of 1 000 000 cd's and 10000 of them stolen. thats is a lot but each person is only loseing 10% right so that is 10 per! not worth the effort.

However- and getting to the point.
the same 10% - when you sell 900,000 and a bunch of other guy make up the remander - you lose out on 9000 cd - now that is worth the effort.

SO what I am trying to say is that as the companyies have consoilidated, and the record sales have become disportortionate accross generas and artistis - it has changed the balance point as to what level they wish to go after.

I don't supost andone followed that - but anyway-

point 2 is that I think that people ave lost interst in the arts - I hear a lot less about the local bands these days. They can't fill concerts, the only local group haveing any success is the rave comunity. How did this happen??? Maybe the issue is that te music industry is not offering something people WANT to buy - I know that there is no main stream CD put out in the last 2 years that I have bought - just have not been interested.

- no that is not true, I bought the sting cd - don't like it.




one thing that popped in to my head - could you set it up as a streaming system? so that you have a "ipod" type unit with basically a radio station just for you , .. can rather then buying CD , .. you would buy songs/stream time. Hell you could even have after market play lists creaters. - if you like these songs, .. you will like these too -.

I am thinking that this is "way out there" but I think the band width is getting there.



What will save the recording industry is not laws regulations, and lawsuits - it will be a new inovative delivery format that provides MORE conviance and options and all that stuff, then the current offerings do.
And people will pay to use it!

PS any idea how the pay for sat radio is working out??

[Anderton]

Satellite radio is growing fast, both XM and Sirius. Interestingly I never bother to record anything I hear on XM because I know more is coming along...

 

I think it's important to differentiate between copy protection for professional programs, like music software, and consumer-oriented CDs. Where they're similar is that theft is theft, and lost income is lost income, whether to an artist or a developer.

 

But with business software, if there's a copy protection problem (e.g., lost dongle), you could be in real trouble if there's a client with a deadline. With music, okay, you don't get to hear the song you want.

 

I think, though, that you hit the nail on the head. Once someone comes up with a delivery system that works and meets a demand, people are willing to pay. iTunes proved that, I think.

[MorePaul]

one thing that popped in to my head - could you set it up as a streaming system? so that you have a "ipod" type unit with basically a radio station just for you , .. can rather then buying CD , .. you would buy songs/stream time. Hell you could even have after market play lists creaters. - if you like these songs, .. you will like these too -.

 

I think a few, like "napster radio" are doing those sorts of things.

 

streaming doesn't really stop copying though...streamrippers are in common use - they can even grab faster-than-realtime

In terms of copy protection it isn't really effective

 

my concern with the "build it and they will come" approach is that there can be parallel pirate distribution systems (torrent communities, etc)

I'm just not sure (as in "I don't know") that those wanting content won't use those parallel systems as well (Q : are those using iTunes also using priate systems?)

[Dogfur]

Since a rant on the evils of copy protection was my first post on the old SSS it is fitting I recapitulate that same message several years along:

I help administrate several staff members workstations in a large corporate environment - The idea that any copy-protection scheme is too fragile to allow me to update hardware/software in a timely fashion is one of my paramount factors of selecting products to be used. But the industry at large wants to continue to punish me for trying to use their products - I can name several software-based companies who's problematic copy-protection have slowed our use, and purchase of their products:

Tascam (Jeff the weasel worked for them when I initially ranted on the subject - I was happy for an open ear!), Waves, Sony, Digidesign come to mind as areas where the amount of time to maintain/upgrade systems was problematic enough for me to make decisions to lessen our use of their products and seek alternatives. On some level at some point you would think this may have an impact, but apparently not. I don't read anything more into it than the manufacturers' decision to protect their property at my expense. I figure robust hardware products will soon be making a resurgence if the software industries' lack of ingenuity in addressing this problem continues, at least at our facility.

As far as 'consumer' based music delivery - ie: downloadable music, CD copy-protection, etc... I think that Craig has hit it on the head - the paradigm shift in from the consumer side has created new needs, but the traditional industry is not answering the call realistically. It is an interesting time these days, watching the pop marketing machine consume itself...From a consumer perspective I think it is more of a "optimize the new horizons" than a "deal with the old guard" thing. My most recent music purchases have been digital downoads - my traditional CD purchases have slowed tremendously, and the usual outlets for that are unfortunately going to have to suffer will be challenged.(my local independent CD place is trading some of its usual music product floorspace into novelty gifts, cards, games, etc...)

I am somewhat doggedly optimistic about satellite radio and went ahead and subscribed, but I kind of watch it the same way as an independent magazine, or film company, etc... To be competitive they will have to market to a broader band of public, which usually loses me in the transistion. How long until Sat radio just becomes another "corporate media provider"?


My $.02,

Dogfur

[MorePaul]

I guess that's one extremely important issue that hasn't been raised

as trad media outlets are challenged....Is there going to be enough room for the bookish art-hotties that seem to staff those establishments.

In light of that, I think online sales, streaming, etc should be forbidden

a support email just isn't as pleasant as watching the horn-rimmed cutie bounce down the aisles in a peasant skirt

[amplayer]

My guess is that copy-protected CDs will seriously damper sales of CDs. I will definitely NOT purchase CDs if I can't rip them to mp3 files.
The funny thing is, I think that would ultimately boost sales of online music distribution services like Apple's iTunes store. Why? People like myself will ONLY buy songs at $.99 a pop and NEVER buy CDs if I can't rip them to mp3 files for use with my computers and mp3 file player devices. However, I must say that I usually do NOT buy music from iTunes, because they don't give me mp3 files. The files they provide will not work on my 40 Gbyte iRiver mp3 player, so companies like Apple still have some work to do to make it convenient for us.
As a musician, I find it much more useful to have the files (mp3) on my hard drive for instant usage than having to search through my CD stacks. Plus, software like "Amazing Slow Downer" works much faster with computer files than with CD drives.

I have a large collection of CDs already ripped to mp3 files. I'll bet many of you do as well. I think a great protest would be to start aggressively posting our mp3 files to the file sharing networks if the big companies implement CD anti-ripping. Who is with me?
By the way, I don't see how the big labels can get so upset with file sharing when they in turn are using illegal and immorale tactics such as payola. Sony recently got busted for bribing radio stations to play their own artists. Ever wonder why flipping stations on your radio dial doesn't net you very much difference? Sony doesn't wonder!

[Anderton]

 

I think a great protest would be to start aggressively posting our mp3 files to the file sharing networks if the big companies implement CD anti-ripping. Who is with me?

 

 

I understand your thinking, but two wrongs don't make a right. I say that a noisy, public boycott of copy-protected CDs is the way to go. This editorial is my own attempt to bring attention to the problem. We truly ARE dealing with the wrong kind of copy protection here, because it's going to make it harder for LEGITIMATE buyers to listen to music they BOUGHT.

 

What a mess.

[Rodney Gene]

With the advent of music downloads (song purchases) does it really make any difference?

How many albums even went platinum amongst the mega-stars last year?

Who is buying CD's on a regular basis?

I traveled recently and nearly every person on the plane who was listening to music was clicking through thier iPod.
The artist I am producing is researching an intensive Internet 'per' song download campaign...He doesn't plan on printing any more than 2000 CDs to start as we expect his primary 'sales' to be from downloads.

This is based on his last record and current download record for the year.

Direct downloading, pod casting, Internet radio...That is the future of music sales IMO and that is where i want to be prepared. I would like to plan to learn good strategies to manage that market..


Leave the CD's to the touring bands to give away or sell as souvineers..They almost seem novel now...(As I type I can browse .wav files on my system for songs I have loaded...

Peace and Respect,

[soapbox]

Originally posted by Dogfur: Since a rant on the evils of copy protection was my first post on the old SSS it is fitting I recapitulate that same message several years along

Dogfur, I remember it well - it was in a thread I started in 2001 called Nightmare Experiences with "Copy Protection".

It's good to see you here, Dogfur.

Best,

Geoff

[MorePaul]

Rodney has an interesting point

speaking to that -- what about DRM schemes attached to downloaded content?

how do you guys feel abt that whole thing?

[EugeneBr]

Just a thought: any strategist will tell you that no 'protection' approach will ever help anyone to win.

[MorePaul]

ceptin epee guys (but we know they are all dorks...wait I mean we are all dorks) - well technically I guess that's being a tactician


but all kidding aside, do you figure maybe that's why there are the fillings against "sharing" (ie trying to move to a more offense posture, maybe using a protection as the parry and then the legal action as reposte)? [or not - it's a real question]

[Anderton]

Thanks, everyone, for all your comments. I'm going to "unsticky" this thread and let it sink off the page...and on September 1st, the next editorial will go up.

 

Thanks again for your participation!!

[Base]

Can these be archived somewhere or some direct links kept in one of the sticky's at the top??

[MorePaul]

damn fine idea