Should sound engineers learn the theoretical aspects of sound?

[skunky_funk]

I studied EE a few years back and I obtained a good number of units in DSP or digital signal processing. While I still regret not to have graduated from the EE program, I realized that the theories behind digital technology is very essential in sound engineering. Essential but not necessary.

 

Imagine, how can you discern what a good A/D converter should do if you do not know how A-D conversion is in the first place?

 

How can you butt in to these 24-bit vs. 16-bit arguments if you do not even know what a bit/byte is and how it represents an audio sample?

 

How can you differentiate the quality of 96KHz vs. 44.1KHz if you do not know anything about Fourier's transform/theorem and the Nyquist theorem?

 

How can you discern what a good "flat response" speaker is if you do not know how to do bode plots?

 

A little knowledge in Physics and Differential Equations can help you understand sound.

 

But don't be mistaken, a lot of electrical engineers can be bad sound men...

[MrKnobs]

Well, let's see.

 

I used to tour as a live sound guy, I made pretty good money. I'd say that job didn't require much theory, just a good ear and good troubleshooting skills.

 

Now I'm a research scientist studying pavement acoustics, which is better money, health insurance, vacation, pension, etc. Those things are hard to come by working bands. The new job is almost ALL theory, but when you get out in the field and measure things you still need the troubleshooting skills, and sometimes even a good ear, believe it or not.

 

I can LOOK at a pavement noise waveform on the Larson Davis controller and *maybe* spot a few kinds of trouble in the field, but I can immediately hear if one of the windscreens came off, if a trailer bearing is going bad, if some idiot yelled or screeched his tires when our trailer went by, etc.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Knight]

I think the knowledge is necessary. How you get it can be as varied as the anything. I studied acoustics, electronics, music theory over the years and have never regreted any the knowledge I've picked up. It's been tremendously helpful and many times has guided me in the right direction.

 

But... I've met guys don't have an ounce of understanding of the underlying priciples of sound and audio and are amazing.

 

I guess I need to understand the principles to tie it all together in my mind. I think we all use our brain in diferent ways.

 

I don't think you have to understand how digital works to be able to pick out which converter sounds better.

 

I could contridict myself all day on this one... good question.

[cyanhue]

actually I think for reconding and sound engineers acustic theory is probably more important than signal processing theory.

but in any case you can do fine with very little theoretical knowledge.

[Prog]

"Engineer" should be used with a degree in hand.

[boosh]

To stay in my line of Biz,.....

 

I know cooks who can tell you everything about the chemical things that change when you cook an egg.....

 

Those are the same guys that CAN'T cook the bloody egg themselves.

[blue2blue]

 

Originally posted by skunky_funk ... How can you differentiate the quality of 96KHz vs. 44.1KHz if you do not know anything about Fourier's transform/theorem and the Nyquist theorem? How can you discern what a good "flat response" speaker is if you do not know how to do bode plots? ...

 

 

 

Use your ears?

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with your general conclusions. I'm all for people educating themselves inside and out of school. And I think a good understanding of theory can certainly help one understand and improve his/her practice. Not to mention figure out why things go wrong when they do...

 

But I have to say, from banging around a log of BBs, a lot of folks who think they have a good tech understanding, don't. Yet some of them continue to make good music (and some don't -- just like the folks who actually do have a good understanding). Just as you suggest.

 

 

[Scodiddly]

 

Originally posted by boosh To stay in my line of Biz,..... I know cooks who can tell you everything about the chemical things that change when you cook an egg..... Those are the same guys that CAN'T cook the bloody egg themselves.

 

 

OK, so if you read up on the chemistry and learned all that stuff, would you lose your ability to cook eggs properly?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Would learing traditional music theory and how to read / write music notation screw up Paul McCartney's songwriting abilities? He seems to think so... and who am I to argue with him?

 

IMO, it's very important to know as much as you can, but at the end of the day, it's all about your ears and your musicality. Theory and scientific knowledge is fine and good, and IMO, quite important, but NOTHING over-rules the ears.

[KB Gunn]

Pavements have acoustics? I have to assume that you are talking about road noise when driving a car on a highway. Some roads are noisier than others. Is that what you mean?

[Bruce Swedien]

Well, I don't know if sound engineers should learn the theoretical aspects of sound or not..... Will that really help? However, I do think the industry would definitely benefit if sound engineers would make an effort to learn what music sounds like!!!

 

To take that line of thought a step further I think I should say that I feel that the best way to develope your ears' 'benchmark' is to hear good acoustical music in a fine acoustical setting. How many of you get out and hear

[boosh]

Sadly Bruce,....most of the live music venues I attend are amplified and mixed by tone-def weirdos.

 

Once in a while,....maybe twice a year I see and hear a live performance that gives me :

 

The pleasure and taste in my mouth I get when my mother cooks me a meal,

 

The warmth and glow I get when my wife tells me she loves me by just looking at me

 

and the overwhelming feeling of love that overcomes me when I hear the laughter of Skippy my son.

 

 

Edit : Music to me is : all that and more,...... you can hear it,feel it,taste it,see it,live it,enjoy it but most of all,.......Love it.

[Bruce Swedien]

boosh wooshi sez-------->Once in a while,....maybe twice a year I see and hear a live performance that gives me :

 

The pleasure and taste in my mouth I get when my mother cooks me a meal,

 

The warmth and glow I get when my wife tells me she loves me by just looking at me

 

and the overwhelming feeling of love that overcomes me when I hear the laughter of Skippy my son.

 

 

Music to me is : all that and more,...... you can hear it,feel it,taste it,see it,live it,enjoy it but most of all,.......Love it.

 

Brucie sez-------->Wow!!! booshi-wooshi - you are the greatest!!! Now you must say - Famous words by Bruce Swedien as posted on the musicplayer's forums:

 

"booshi-wooshi.....a musical gem from Holland..."

[Jeff da Weasel]

I have a bachelor's degree in music, specializing in audio engineering. It's nice to have some of the specific tech knowledge of electronics and the physics or acoustics I acquired along the way.

 

When I work in audio, be it live sound or studio engineering/production, I'd say it's still roughly 95% ears and 5% tech knowledge that I rely upon. Different people will get different results, I'm sure. If it was a matter of getting the knowledge versus not, I'd certainly advise anyone that knowing a little more won't hurt them, while knowing a little less may.

 

- Jeff

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by KB Gunn Pavements have acoustics? I have to assume that you are talking about road noise when driving a car on a highway. Some roads are noisier than others. Is that what you mean?

 

 

Yes.

 

It ranges from very simple to very complex.

 

Examples:

 

Concrete roads are usually tined / grooved to give better traction in wet weather and prevent hydroplaning. But guess what happens when you drive 70 mph over evenly spaced grooves. That's right, a very objectionable tone right in the range where your hearing works best. Since white noise is less objectionable than tones, we've learned to randomize the spacing of the grooves. But it's still pretty bad.

 

In urban areas, federal regulations require building noise barriers when the traffic noise exceeds certain levels for specific periods of time (Leq). Noise barriers are very expensive (ranges from $1 million per mile to $8 million per mile in LA) and don't help many businesses or residences due to distance considerations and openings in the barrier for side streets. State agencies would very much like to reduce the noise at the source, i.e. the pavement / tire interaction. This is done by designing quieter pavements.

 

Porous friction courses (asphalt with air voids) are catching on all over the country. People like them because water flows through them making wet weather driving safer by eliminating hydroplaning and splash and spray. They're also extremely quiet because the air voids absorb a portion of the vehicle noise. Unfortunately, they have some associated problems. One of the biggest is the formation of black (clear) ice caused by water inside the pavement structure. I have a two year project to study the formation of black ice and find ways to detect it and mitigate it. In the meantime, a lot of states have stopped using it due to cold weather issues.

 

In Europe they're even more serious about controlling traffic noise than we are here. There have been many insanely expensive pilot projects to develop whisper quiet pavements. The most expensive and elaborate one I've seen so far involves a pre-built pavement that unrolls from a truck to be glued down. The structure includes an integrated Helmholtz resonator under the surface tuned to the worst frequency of noise expected. I don't think this idea will ever be commercially viable.

 

In the field, I have a purpose built noise trailer and a special car with a sound intensity probe to measure existing pavement noise. Turns out the porous pavements tend to get clogged up with time and more noisy without the air voids. That's not making the FHWA happy or inclined to let us handle noise with pavement design. So we have to figure out some way to measure the air voids at intervals and clean them out when needed.

 

In the lab, I use a specially made impedance tube that measures test molds and field cores to predict how a new design will absorb sound. If we can correlate offending noise characteristics to design parameters like percent voids, use of crumb rubber, aggregate size, binder type, etc. perhaps we can optimize design for noise abatement.

 

Of course the pavement still has to bear the loadings, resist rutting, cracking, delamination, stripping, etc. Noise will never be the main concern, that would be safety followed by performance.

 

It's a fun job from which I will retire August 31st. I have a tentative agreement to come back as a consultant, but who knows. The politics at this place are treacherous.

 

Terry D.

[cyanhue]

wow who ever though this musch effort was put into the acustics of pavement.

thanks for the leacture it was really intresting.

[KB Gunn]

 

Originally posted by cyanhue wow who ever though this musch effort was put into the acustics of pavement. thanks for the leacture it was really interesting.

 

 

I agree.

 

It is fascinating that so much effort is put into something as basic as pavement. I drove from Raleigh the Jacksonville, NC yesterday and was amazed at the different volume levels of the roads as pavement changes occurred. The quietest were the touch up areas that were filled with blacktop. They were almost silent by comparison to the cement.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by KB Gunn I agree. It is fascinating that so much effort is put into something as basic as pavement. I drove from Raleigh the Jacksonville, NC yesterday and was amazed at the different volume levels of the roads as pavement changes occurred. The quietest were the touch up areas that were filled with blacktop. They were almost silent by comparison to the cement.

 

That's right. And the concrete industry is currently paying millions of dollars to anyone and everyone who has an idea how to make concrete as quiet as asphalt without making it too smooth to be safe.

 

The states and feds are having trouble keeping their experienced pavement noise people. They're all retiring and jumping over to industry to cash in.

 

Sometimes it's almost comical. I know a certain unnamed guy who recently worked for a southwestern state on their noise mitigation effort. At the time, he recommended immediately covering every new concrete pavement with asphalt, which totally freaked out the concrete industry as it would virtually eliminate them in that state.

 

Then the concrete people (must also go unnamed) hired him for big bucks. Now the guy is at every big national meeting saying how great concrete is and how easily it can be made quiet.

 

Ah, I love the stench of research in the morning!

 

 

Terry D.

[KB Gunn]

 

Originally posted by Bruce Swedien Well, I don't know if sound engineers should learn the theoretical aspects of sound or not..... Will that really help? However, I do think the industry would definitely benefit if sound engineers would make an effort to learn what music sounds like!!!   To take that line of thought a step further I think I should say that I feel that the best way to develope your ears' 'benchmark' is to hear good acoustical music in a fine acoustical setting........   (splice)   ......An engineer, or producers