How loud should the drummer play in the studio?

[gibsg]

Many drummers that i jammed with like to hit so hard that when i stepped out of the studio, i'm half deaf. One would tell me that the he gotta hit the cymbals hard enough so as not to get a 'metallic' sound instead of how the cymbals should sound like.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm going to hedge and say... "it depends".

 

Dynamics are important, and many drummers don't seem to understand that, and they only have two settings: off and ohmygoodnessthat'sLOUD!

 

OTOH, drums are a resonating instrument, and as such, you do have to hit them a bit to get the best tone out of them. I personally don't prefer super-quiet drummers, but OTOH, you don't have to bash them within an inch of their destruction point either.

 

Drums and cymbals are capable of an incredibly wide dynamic range (from soft to loud), and offer a wide range of tones throughout their range, depending on how hard they're hit / loud or soft they are played. While good, consistent hits are important, if your drummer feels he has to hit everything full bore all the time, then I feel sorry for you - and for him. You're both missing out on a lot of cool timbres, musical dynamics and subtleties.

 

Now as far as your ears go... get some GOOD earplugs / hearing protection and USE THEM AT EVERY PRACTICE! I can not emphasise that enough - hearing loss is incremental with increased / long term exposure, and once you have it you have it for life. So take care of your hearing.

[lowkey]

Not wanting to hi-jack this thread here, but does anybody know of any reasonable earplugs, that do not muffle the sound beyond recognition and still protect efficiently? Any recommendations?

 

Thanks!

[Super 8]

I have used the foam plugs that you can get at the drug store many times. They work pretty well. It's not as good as the more expensive ones, but they work. I find that I can hear some things better when I have them in. It reduces a lot of the 'clang' that you hear in a small room.

 

If you play with them in, be aware of how hard you are hitting your drums. You may be hitting them a lot harder than you think you are. I broke a cymbal that way. It's the only time that has ever happened. If the sound is too dead, loosen the plugs up a bit.

 

 

Regarding the original question:

Play the way you normally do. It's the recording engineer's job to get a good sound. It's the drummers job to give a decent performance.

 

I think people get into the studio and they get a little freaked out because they are hearing themselves differently than they are used to. Plus, it's the fact that it's "the studio".

 

Just bring in some decent gear, and play them like you always do. If the performance sucks, find a different drummer. If the sound sucks, find a different studio.

[blue2blue]

When I was coming up, the prevailing wisdom was that, in the studio, drummers should play as hard as consistently possible. The thinking here was that this made for a more consistent drum sound through the recording. And, back in the early 80's, it seemed like everyone was busting backside to make everything as consistent and characterless as possible. (Think I'm kidding?)

 

And, while that advice may have some merit when dealing with inexperienced or uneven drummers (if they play as loud as possible, the thinking was, you only have to worry about their intensity level sinking, not giong up, too. Hey, that was what I always heard for the rationale)... I think it helps lead to the kind of crappy, artificial, and ultimately lifeless sound a lot of rock producers got in the 80s (and then tarted up with hideous production garbage like gated reverbs... UGH!)

[halljams]

Originally posted by Super 8 Play the way you normally do. It's the recording engineer's job to get a good sound. It's the drummers job to give a decent performance. Just bring in some decent gear, and play them like you always do. If the performance sucks, find a different drummer. If the sound sucks, find a different studio.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with this opinion, from an engineering and mixing standpoint.

Here is an example why......

I have recently finished recording and mixing a fast metal band.

They were really good.

The drummer was quite good but he hit too light.

After the mixes were done i played him the one tune where he hit the hardest and showed him the difference in sonic character i was able to get out of the drums on that one tune.

There is better smack, the drums ring more consistently, better attitude etc etc. It was just a whole lot easier to get the drums to sound good on that one tune than on the other ones where he was being polite.(he is pretty young and very concious of his technique, and doing very well with it, but in this case it got in the way of the presentation of his performance)

It was my fault for not saying something while they were tracking but i wasn't asked to produce so much and they were on a roll with the takes.

 

Still, you cannot change the way a drummer plays in one afternoon, but i think drummers should be aware that they NEED to be able to play at different volumes in different situatuions and it should be part of their practice regime to learn to play loud drums(with light cymbals as an option) and quiet drums(with light cymbals) and the spaces in between. Also they should come in with some different sizes of sticks, as that can really make a sound difference as well.

 

And it depends on the music and the room and the way the drums are miked as to how might be the best way for the drummer play to get the best, most appropriate sound for the track.

 

So i have to say that alot of getting good drum sounds on a recording has to do with the drummer getting him/herself educated on what they can do to help.

If the drums sound cheesy, the whole recording will as well.

 

I think the drum sound is the most important because it is the one thing that, subconciously, average listeners will define the professionality of the recording with.

And it's hard enough already from a mixing standpoint, we don't need drummers thinking it's not their responsibility to help out with the studio sound.

[blue2blue]

Some good points, for sure.

 

But then, seems to me, a speedmetal drummer who's not hitting hard at least most of the time is maybe mismatched (or has been 'stunted' by his practice space, where, perhaps, he has to hold back).

 

 

I guess what I'm thinking -- and it's certainly not contradicted by anything Steve says -- is that playing as hard as possible is not the right answer in every situation (even though it seemed to be the prevailing wisdom way back when I was working in the commercial studio world -- admittedly, a long time ago. [We used to have to put the session on hold when the tyrannosauruses and brontosauruses were fighting outside]).

[where02190]

Louder ?better.

[roland]

IMO the snare, kick, and especially toms need to be hit hard, but in the right way. Top notch drummers (at least the ones I've seen) can really crack those drums hard and get a great tone without flailling around and pounding the crap out of them. I think its all in the wrist (and ears, of course).

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Speed ---> Balance ---> Impact

 

Protect your ears!

[halljams]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Louder ?better.

 

 

I don't understand this post even slightly.

Where02190, you are a drummer, no. What do you think, please elaborate in detail.

[kylen]

Super8 said everyting I would have for input on this VERY important topic...there are implications for the drummer and band and recording venue.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

Originally posted by blue2blue Some good points, for sure. But then, seems to me, a speedmetal drummer who's not hitting hard at least most of the time is maybe mismatched (or has been 'stunted' by his practice space, where, perhaps, he has to hold back).

 

 

Fast playing with a high number of hits in a given time, can not produce the loudest levels. For the production of the loudest level on a drum, you have to have a longer way to bring the stick up to the speed, which also means more time. If he tries to go against this laws, he will be out of energy very soon, maybe before the end of one tune. When you closely watch a speed metal drummer, o any drummer playing very fast, you will see that he is not hitting very hard, but in a efficient way, and with a tuning who is rather high, so the bounce back energy after hitting is greater.

 

the row is:

Speed Balance Impact Rebound

Speed Balance Impact Rebound

Speed Balance Impact Rebound

etc.

[Dave D]

There's also an art and science to hitting the drums to make them sing. It's incredible how the sound of the same drumset can sound with different people hitting the drums.

 

I agree that for a lot of pop and rock music, smacking the drums hard makes them sound goooodd. I 've recorded some rock bands where the drummer hits like a sissy and it don't sound good at all.

[halljams]

 

Originally posted by UltraMambo Fast playing with a high number of hits in a given time, can not produce the loudest levels. For the production of the loudest level on a drum, you have to have a longer way to bring the stick up to the speed, which also means more time. If he tries to go against this laws, he will be out of energy very soon, maybe before the end of one tune. When you closely watch a speed metal drummer, o any drummer playing very fast, you will see that he is not hitting very hard, but in a efficient way, and with a tuning who is rather high, so the bounce back energy after hitting is greater. the row is: Speed Balance Impact Rebound Speed Balance Impact Rebound Speed Balance Impact Rebound etc.

 

That is true and a good point but there is a pretty big difference in using the tip of a small stick and the butt of a big one. Little things like that can make the drums sound a lot fatter.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

right halljams,

 

you added weight, who supports a greater impact

[AudioMaverick]

However the drummer plays is how I'm going to record them. What I don't like is the drummer showing how hard they can hit WHILE I am seting up the microphones... They think it is funny to fire up my tinnitus just before I track them. Go figure...

[halljams]

 

Originally posted by AudioMaverick However the drummer plays is how I'm going to record them.

 

 

I understand that attitude, but as far as i am concerned, they are coming to me because they trust that i will make them sound good.

If i can help make the drums sound substanially better in the end product by having a little talk with the drummer before we track, i am gonna do it from now on, it's worth it. It'll save money and time in mixing too, so why not lay it out, in a helpful friendly way, no one has to be offended.

[kylen]

Style & touch education may work on some drummers that can understand, on others it may not and for the band it may not. Especially if it changes the sound or vibe - now the bass player has to adjust, etc. as the whole band adjusts to a new sound that isn't them. Unless it's a small style change we're talking about here - sometimes yes sometimes no. That's when I go on location - I've recorded bands in a warehouse with 90' ceilings and the nearest thing is 40' away - loading docks can solve many problems like this! If you're trying to record a drummer in a 9 foot basement that is a hard hitter - god bless ya!

 

If you can handle the bands style record them - if not see what they want to do in your situation - and if the style is the priority send them somewhere that can handle it!

[halljams]

Originally posted by kylen Style & touch education may work on some drummers that can understand, on others it may not and for the band it may not. Especially if it changes the sound or vibe - now the bass player has to adjust, etc. as the whole band adjusts to a new sound that isn't them. Unless it's a small style change we're talking about here - sometimes yes sometimes no. That's when I go on location - I've recorded bands in a warehouse with 90' ceilings and the nearest thing is 40' away - loading docks can solve many problems like this! If you're trying to record a drummer in a 9 foot basement that is a hard hitter - god bless ya! If you can handle the bands style record them - if not see what they want to do in your situation - and if the style is the priority send them somewhere that can handle it!

I agree with ya Kylen, but now we are talking about the sound of the surrounding space as opposed to how the drums themselves are sounding due to how they are attacked.

And that makes the same difference in a smal room as well as a large one,

it is the quality of the source i am discussing.

[d. gauss]

this is truly a lost art but.....

 

hit the actual drums as hard as possible, and hit the cymbals (use thin if u can) as quiet as you can get away with without losing your individual feel. makes for a better record every time.

 

- d. gauss

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by halljams I don't understand this post even slightly. Where02190, you are a drummer, no. What do you think, please elaborate in detail.

 

 

Apparantly this forum cannot recognize the not equals sign, and substitutes a question mark.

 

Louder IMHO is NEVER better. The best drummers I've worked with also played the quietest. Power is in the set, and how it is tuned, not how hard you hit.

[halljams]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Apparantly this forum cannot recognize the not equals sign, and substitutes a question mark. Louder IMHO is NEVER better. The best drummers I've worked with also played the quietest. Power is in the set, and how it is tuned, not how hard you hit.

 

For Metal?

Plus, Yamaha drums for example react to hard hitting differently than say Gretsch's, no?

[Phil O'Keefe]

A Great drummer...

 

can play loud or soft, going from one to the other and back again at a moments notice. It's called "being able to play with dynamics."

 

A Great drummer...

 

can play softly, but with the same intensity as they do when they play loudly. They can maintain the same groove, or switch to any musically appropriate vibe you might ask for, again, at a moment's notice, even while adjusting dynamics. It's called "feel" baby!

 

A Great drummer...

 

knows the difference between pushing / playing on top of the beat and laying back in the pocket, and knows how to play equally well doing either. It's called "groove" brothers and sisters!

 

A Great drummer...

 

knows their gear and spends a lot of time with it. They know how to really tune it, and they know what it's capable of doing and where all the various "sounds" can be found, and when and how to pull them out at musically appropriate places that suit the song and the band. It's called "being musical" folks.

 

A Great drummer...

 

knows how to adjust their playing to suit the room and the song and the conditions at hand, keeping best sound, feel and song needs in mind above everything else. That includes when recording too. They play what is needed and best in the situation at hand. If you ask them to crack the snare a little more on the choruses because you like the way it changes up the sound and feel there, a great drummer will give that to you if you politely ask them for it...

 

Oh how I love great drummers!

 

 

 

 

Would that the world had more of 'em!

 

 

 

 

So if you know any, show 'em some love and appreciation. Can I get a wittness Lee?

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

the planet class drummers are sure not a problem for the producer and engineers, but bands with drummers who didn't care much about sound culture and all the stuff Phil just mentioned. I'm just willing to take time to tune a drum when the result is it worth, i.e. with Aerosmith i would discuss any time, if we should take the kick a bit down or up for this or that tune.