"Piracy Isn't Killing" music - Radiohead guy...

[Matximus]

My Conscience is clean... Ed O'Brien knows what he's talking about.

 

http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-isnt-killing-music-radioheads-guitarist-says-100124/

 

 

O’Brien is no stranger when it comes to piracy. “There’s a very strong part of me that feels that peer-to-peer illegal downloading is just a more sophisticated version of what we did in the 80s, which was home taping,” he said, something the music industry strongly discouraged at the time.

 

“If they really like it, some of them might buy the records,” he said, adding that if they don’t buy the albums they might buy a concert ticket, t-shirt or other merchandising.

 

“I have a problem about it when people in the industry say ‘it’s killing the industry’, it’s the thing that’s ripping us apart’,” O’Brien said, adding: “I don’t believe it actually is.”

 

According to O’Brien the music industry is using analogue business models in a digital age. “You’ve got to license out more music, more Spotifys, more websites selling more music. You’ve got to make it slightly cheaper as well to get music in order to compete with the peer-to-peers.”

[drewl]

Back in the day, radio stations would play an album at like midnight for taping purposes, no commercials straight through.

That's how I got alot of my albums.

[BlueStrat]

Boy, what a crock.

 

The issue is not, and never was, about making personal copies. The issue is putting someone else's music up on line without their permission and distributing it to millions of people without compensating the artist or writers.

 

Comparing downloading to making casette tapes is just silly, unless you had a dupe machine in your bedroom that would turn out thousands of copies and you distributed them to anyone and everyone for free. Only an intellectually dishonest person or a moron would not be able to see the huge difference.

 

Wanna see the proof? Go back and look at the rise of technology and the steep decline in sales, and see where they intersect. Is it at the point where cassette recorders were invented, or where the MP3 became available on the internet?

 

(Hint: it's not the cassette technology))

 

Oh, and just because a guy is in a world famous rock band doesn't mean he knows jack {censored} about business.

 

I'm amazed at the amount of effort you're willing to expend to justify helping yourself to someone else's work that they paid for and you didn't. You're a {censored}ing parasite. I hope you get caught and fined 100k.

 

Suck that.

[Mosby]

So because Radiohead says it's not the issue, its okay for you to steal music?

 

The cassette analogy is always horrible, partially because, iirc, the record companies got a payment for every cassette tape sold, and second because the difference in scale of cassette dubbing and downloading/file-sharing are enormous.

 

While pointing out flaws in the current industry model might be valid and accurate, it does not change the fact that downloading music is stealing. You are getting for free what you would otherwise pay for.

[soundwave106]

Radiohead's an indie band. And indie record labels, those that is which are *not* based solely on moving units of CDs, have not done as bad as the majors have done. So I sort of see where he's coming from.

 

One can reserve strong feelings for the MP3 pirates, the whole "stealing" mentality etc. But the industry has been just as aggressive against the Internet radio / satellite radio startups, startups that do have legitimate business models. The whole point is the major labels' *control*. These labels fear the loss of it.

 

The main reason I don't think they've had much effect, is in part because some of these shakeups, like Google / Youtube and Apple, are huge enough to have their *own* set of lawyer types. Apple in particular has been just as pivotal in changing the music industry, in a way that any music biz person has to grudgingly accept. I think Youtube-like sites is also being grudgingly being accepted as a way to gain business from videos (especially as that industry is legitimizing sectors that are "professional" oriented, with Hulu leading the way).

 

The majors, by the time the Internet came around, were too bloated and complacent to do anything except sue people and hope that the 1980s business model would still be worth something in these times. It ain't.

[AwayEam]

"...You’ve got to make it slightly cheaper as well to get music in order to compete with the peer-to-peers.”

 

HEY BRO

 

...in order to compete with free? Is he retarded?

[Mcfontio]

Is it that surprising that at a place like torrent freak, you find an article claiming that illegal downloading is not "killing music"?

 

"In an attempt to take a stand against the labels, several well known artists including Radiohead formed the Featured Artists Coalition last year, a lobby group that aims to end the extortion-like practices of record labels and allow artists to gain more control over their own work."

 

Then they go on to say "if they like it *after stealing it*, they may buy it."

 

That makes sense, if everyone is stealing the music, the artists will have more control over it. Impeccable logic.

 

I'm not sure who's the greater chump, the people who steal the music and feel they're entitled to it or the musician who keeps making the music and trying to make a living.

[BlueStrat]

 

The whole point is the major labels' *control*. These labels fear the loss of it.

 

 

With good reason. If you cannot control distribution of your product, you have no business. That goes not for just the major labels, but for anyone. It may not be a big deal for those who sell little product compared to what they earn performing, but for those who rely in selling product to get to the next level, or to put food on their tables in support roles (studios, engineers, producers, PR and ad people, distributors, retailers) it is a huge deal.

[AluminumNeck]

 

Radiohead's an indie band. And indie record labels, those that is which are *not* based solely on moving units of CDs, have not done as bad as the majors have done. So I sort of see where he's coming from. One can reserve strong feelings for the MP3 pirates, the whole "stealing" mentality etc. But the industry has been just as aggressive against the Internet radio / satellite radio startups, startups that do have legitimate business models. The whole point is the major labels' *control*. These labels fear the loss of it. The main reason I don't think they've had much effect, is in part because some of these shakeups, like Google / Youtube and Apple, are huge enough to have their *own* set of lawyer types. Apple in particular has been just as pivotal in changing the music industry, in a way that any music biz person has to grudgingly accept. I think Youtube-like sites is also being grudgingly being accepted as a way to gain business from videos (especially as that industry is legitimizing sectors that are "professional" oriented, with Hulu leading the way). The majors, by the time the Internet came around, were too bloated and complacent to do anything except sue people and hope that the 1980s business model would still be worth something in these times. It ain't.

 

 

no defense of piracy but sales were up until they sued napster and then lost a great oputunity to redefine the bussines model. the record companies only want hardcopy sales.

 

not hard to guess why and cd's were basically copy proof till cheap burners, broad band connections and Cheap high pwoered PC's came along.

 

they still refuse to adapt and still charge hard copy prices for digital material.

 

which is why they continue to fail.

[BlueStrat]

 

no defense of piracy but sales were up until they sued napster and then lost a great oputunity to redefine the bussines model. the record companies only want hardcopy sales. not hard to guess why and cd's were basically copy proof till cheap burners, broad band connections and Cheap high pwoered PC's came along. they still refuse to adapt and still charge hard copy prices for digital material. which is why they continue to fail.

 

 

 

This is all true. The decline of CD sales would probably have happened anyway because they are going the way of the vinyl record, 8 track and the cassette. But it's the loss of revenue, not the shift in medium, that has caused the damage. The fact that record companies were slow to embrace new technology and even resisted it is still no justification for stealing something that someone else paid for to produce.

[AluminumNeck]

 

This is all true. The decline of CD sales would probably have happened anyway because they are going the way of the vinyl record, 8 track and the cassette. But it's the loss of revenue, not the shift in medium, that has caused the damage. The fact that record companies were slow to embrace new technology and even resisted it is still no justification for stealing something that someone else paid for to produce.

 

 

 

but sales aren't down. Thats the lie. The sales are lower then what they projected !

[Toto99]

O'Brien makes the taping analogy but completely misses the point. There are so many reasons why this comparison doesn't work:

 

1. Compare the quality of copied tapes with mp3s. Bit of a difference. One of the reasons why I used to buy CDs of albums I had taped was the poor sound quality of the tapes.

 

2. The fact that you can skip mp3 tracks and very easily make your own CD. Finding that one amazing song on a tape meant endless rewinding or listening to the fillers.

 

3. If you wanted to share an album with friends in the 80s, you had to make one copy per person which took forever, it was a real effort. Nowadays you click on a link and it shares your copy with millions of people you've never met.

 

4. The key to the underground tape scene was they were REAL communities of real friends, who genuinely believed in the music and had a hardcore passion for it. The snotty-nosed teenagers who download illegal mp3s nowadays are spoilt for choice and care more about the size of their collection than the quality of the music.

 

5. Everybody always accuses the record label people of being evil money-grabbing types, but the reality is, they help make the artist successful. Just like any investor in a start-up company, the labels take risks on new artists based on the assumption that they might make money, but it's a gamble. Nobody criticises start-up company investors, yet it seems that as soon as it concerns making millions out of music/art that they didn't write/perform, it suddenly becomes really immoral, even though the record labels are part of the reason why that music is worth millions in the first place!

[AwayEam]

 

Nobody criticises start-up company investors...

 

 

HEY BRO

 

Now that is a bold statement.

 

Unless you meant nobody here criticizes start-up company investors. In which case you're right, but only because you're on the wrong site.

[BlueStrat]

 

but sales aren't down. Thats the lie. The sales are lower then what they projected !

 

 

 

What? Sales of CDs are tanking.

 

http://www.pollstar.com/blogs/news/archive/2009/03/18/655077.aspx

Posted on Wednesday March 18, 2009 at 11:21 AM

CD sales were down and music listening and digital download purchases were up in 2008, but you won’t find anyone popping bottles of bubbly in celebration of this news, if only because online music sales have yet to replace lost CD revenue.

And there’s more information where that came from – market research company The NPD Group.

According to NPD, the number of Internet users paying for music downloads increased by more than 8 million in 2008 to total 36 million. Purchases of online music increased by 29 percent since 2007 and now account for 33 percent of all music tracks purchased in the U.S. On the downside, there were 17 million fewer CD buyers in 2008 than in 2007.

“Rising incidence of paid downloads is a positive development for the industry, but not all lost CD buyers are turning to digital music,” said NPD entertainment industry analyst Russ Crupnick.

 

****************************

 

Last I checked, 17 million minus 8 million is a negative 9 million fewer people buying music at all.

[BlueStrat]

(Cont'd)

 

NPD also says the decline in CD buyers cut across all age groups, but was particularly evident in teens and folks over 50. While the drop in CD purchases made by baby-boomers is hardly good news for the music industry, NPD’s contention that CD sales dropped among teens is extra disheartening because people often develop their music purchasing habits while they are teenagers. Simply put – if teens purchased fewer CDs in 2008, it’s a good bet the final report for 2009 will be an even bigger loss.

Along with fewer teens and boomers purchasing CDs comes the news that there were 13 million fewer music buyers in the U.S. last year than in 2007. Think about that – 13 million fewer music buyers. Where did they all go?

Of course, some of them, to put it delicately, kicked the bucket. But The NPD Group didn’t pull that figure out of their collective hats. Could it be that a good chunk of that 13 million switched from buying music to stealing music?

NPD also states the decline in music purchasing was led by a 19 percent drop in CD sales, and that only 58 percent of Netizens reported purchasing CDs or digital downloads in 2008, versus 65 percent in 2007.

According to NPD, consumers blamed the drop in CD purchases on the economy; with most saying they had cut back on all entertainment expenses. Furthermore, some consumers feel CDs are too expensive, and some even say they’re quite happy with their current music collection.

Consumers also echoed remarks from years past in saying they preferred purchasing individual tracks online over buying physical CDs because online buying meant they got only the tracks they wanted, as well as fulfilling their instant gratification desire for new music.

But there were a few bright spots in NPD’s report. While buying music is down, listening to music is up. The research company said awareness and usage of popular Internet radio service Pandora doubled year over year to 18 percent of Internet users, with one-third of the Pandora-aware crowd actually ending up using the service.

NPD also said the percentage of consumers claiming to listen to music on social network sites actually increased from 15 percent in 2007’s fourth quarter to 19 percent in the same period during 2008.

“The trends we’re seeing in our consumer tracking studies are evidence of the continued transformation of the music industry,” said Crupnick. “Just as music piracy and the advent of digital music ended the primacy of the CD, we are beginning to see new forms of listening challenge the practice of paying for music. The music industry now has to redouble efforts to intercept and engage these listeners, so they can create revenue through upselling music, videos, concert tickets and related merchandise.”

[BlueStrat]

More evidence:

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/01/business/fi-music1

 

http://www.zeropaid.com/news/8952/emi_cd_sales_decline_by_almost_20_in_last_4_months/

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aC7ekniUw9Fs&refer=us

 

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2008-04-02-album-sales_N.htm

 

http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3id183d5e80b48e57c550902d570d22ab7

[Giorgi]

Just for historical reference: when did CD sales raise up so much that now even though they're pretty low compared to 5-10 years ago, some artists still sell millions of copies?

 

70ies-80ies?

[soundwave106]

 

With good reason. If you cannot control distribution of your product, you have no business. That goes not for just the major labels, but for anyone. It may not be a big deal for those who sell little product compared to what they earn performing, but for those who rely in selling product to get to the next level, or to put food on their tables in support roles (studios, engineers, producers, PR and ad people, distributors, retailers) it is a huge deal.

 

 

True in regards to MP3 piracy, which does affect everyone, and has changed what pays the bills.

 

On the other hand, the threat posed by the Pandoras and the Apples of the world is a different sort of loss of control. Major labels no longer have exclusive access to the ears of teenagers; they can no longer bully radio station conglomerates to push what they want to sell with a little payola here and there.

 

I've heard a lot of bands, especially the indie ones or "dinosaur" ones, view MP3 piracy as a double-edged sword. They argh over the loss of revenue, but are happy, a bit, for the free publicity it gives them.

 

I think that many of these types of bands would be happy enough if MP3 piracy went away, and was replaced by something more like a Pandora or another "music discovery" / "unlimited music streaming" type engine where they not only could get heard, but get a small amount of revenue for being heard.

 

I don't think many of these bands would be happy under the old big label model.

 

The mega-rock-star of the 1970s will never come back; it wouldn't even come back if the old distribution model somehow came back to life. The large corporate music industry has become very conservative; what you hear on radio right now (which IMHO is the lousy side of 2000s music) is the *only* thing you would hear under those circumstances.

[Dancebass]

This is about Radiohead being so afraid of the socialist mentality in the UK, that they would go to ANY length, tell any set of lies, just to make sure they never appear to be an actual business.

[Poker99]

 

This is about Radiohead being so afraid of the socialist mentality in the UK, that they would go to ANY length, tell any set of lies, just to make sure they never appear to be an actual business.

 

 

+1

[Surrealistic]

This is about Radiohead being so afraid of the socialist mentality in the UK, that they would go to ANY length, tell any set of lies, just to make sure they never appear to be an actual business.

Socialist mentality here in the UK?

[AluminumNeck]

that is peculiar. Does it include all download singles purchases from Itunes ?

 

Didn't see that. to be honest most customers buy a album for 1 or 2 songs.

 

hmmm lets not neglect singles. Something that left the industry when CD's got popular as well as cassettes.

 

 

 

What? Sales of CDs are tanking. http://www.pollstar.com/blogs/news/archive/2009/03/18/655077.aspx Posted on Wednesday March 18, 2009 at 11:21 AM CD sales were down and music listening and digital download purchases were up in 2008, but you won’t find anyone popping bottles of bubbly in celebration of this news, if only because online music sales have yet to replace lost CD revenue. And there’s more information where that came from – market research company The NPD Group. According to NPD, the number of Internet users paying for music downloads increased by more than 8 million in 2008 to total 36 million. Purchases of online music increased by 29 percent since 2007 and now account for 33 percent of all music tracks purchased in the U.S. On the downside, there were 17 million fewer CD buyers in 2008 than in 2007. “Rising incidence of paid downloads is a positive development for the industry, but not all lost CD buyers are turning to digital music,” said NPD entertainment industry analyst Russ Crupnick. **************************** Last I checked, 17 million minus 8 million is a negative 9 million fewer people buying music at all.

 

[Toto99]

Socialist mentality here in the UK?

 

Yep, I totally agree that there is a socialist mentality forced upon us in the UK. The fact that you haven't realised this shows how seamlessly this mentality has been introduced.

[Surrealistic]

Yep, I totally agree that there is a socialist mentality forced upon us in the UK. The fact that you haven't realised this shows how seamlessly this mentality has been introduced.

Um ... no I don't intend to derail this thread so I'll say no more.

[Kramerguy]

Funny how people who were famous before piracy are lecturing us on how much it affects us...

 

radiohead are douchebags.. they did nothing but hurt the independent artist when they gave away their music.