why does everyone say jimi hendrix was sloppy?

[csm]

Keep in mind that Jimi was a work in progress. He had only been playing guitar for about seven years when he broke out in a big way. All you hear is Jimi's musical infancy. He didn't start singing until he arrived in London. Think maybe he would have gotten better given more time?

 

 

And factor this in: ALL the music we associate with Hendrix

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Incidentally, the first person to kick off that 'sloppy' argument about JH was Robert Fripp, who claimed that, "Hendrix's technique was inefficient." (Guitar Player magazine, 1975).

It would be inefficient if you were gonna delve into more technically challenging stuff, like the things McLaughlin was getting into back then. For Hendrix's brand of space-age blues rock, it was more than good enough, but one must look at context.

[bjcarl]

cuz they're retarded...

[csm]

It would be inefficient if you were gonna delve into more technically challenging stuff, like the things McLaughlin was getting into back then. For Hendrix's brand of space-age blues rock, it was more than good enough, but one must look at context.

 

 

This debate's actually going somewhere now. Towards the end of his life, Hendrix voiced a wish to take time off to study music formally: learn to read/write music, and be able to produce scores and arrangements for larger ensembles rather than simply overdub zillions of guitar parts himself. He was, after all, listening to a lot of jazz and classical music, and aspiring to more than simply rocking a power trio.

 

He once went to a party at Miles Davis's house. Miles wasn't there - he was slightly jealous of his then wife's fascination with Jimi - but he left Jimi some sheet music with a tune he'd composed for him. When he and Hendrix hooked up again, Jimi confessed that he couldn't read music. Miles went to the piano and played it for him: once Jimi heard it, he knew exactly what Miles was going for.

 

So: the problem - if there was one - had little to do with Hendrix's 'technique'; his playing was admired by everybody from high-school stoners to the likes of Gil Evans and Miles, who were amongst the most sophisticated jazz guys on the planet. What Hendrix wanted to improve was his overall musicality: to refine his instinctive grasp of music with solid theory and methodology. A little book learnin', in other words.

 

Incidentally, throughout the history of 20th century art, avant-gardists have always been accused of sloppiness and weak technique. Picasso and Pollock 'couldn't draw' (Picasso could, as it happens, and beautifully: he just got bored with it); Thelonious Monk and Cecil Taylor 'couldn't play the piano'; Ornette Coleman 'couldn't play the saxophone.'

[TimCz]

Jealousy for sure...

even when he was off his tree (which was always really) - he is still 10 million times better than most people.

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Jealousy for sure...

I don't think so, as many of the people criticizing him can't fully comprehend what his playing was all about, so they can't be jealous of something they don't get.

 

The comment I quoted earlier in this thread comes from a guy who rates Brian May alongside Kurt Cobain as a 'talentless hack', and considers Rusty Cooley to be the greatest virtuoso alive.

 

Do you think this person understands Hendrix as a player?

[GarysBlues]

I guess you had to have been there. You guys MUST take into consideration what was going on in the world at the time? Electronically we were VERY LIMITED in the 60's. FM Radio was Brand New. Electic Ladyland may very well be one the most outstanding studio records recorded at the time. Surely it rates right up their with Sgt. Peppers. So much was done with so little. Cocaine was socially acceptable. and pretty much a Status symbol at the time. LSD was being experimented with across the country. Weed? really it would be easier to ask...who didn't smoke it? The music at the time was also recorded to stimulate a mind on Drugs? Put as simply as I could. Don't confuse something done intentional as bad playing? Sloppiness as you view it, I see as intentional effect. Purple Haze? For so long it was thought, THAT was a direct reference to LSD? The Are You Experienced CD is a Psyco era recording. Hippies, Flower Power, Peace, Mind Expanding through chemical's, such as Acid, LSD, THC, Mescaline, etc, etc. So their HAD to be music to entertain in that state?

[GarysBlues]

Also the reference to SRV and his covers of Hendrix being better than the actual recordings? Look Stevie was a Big fan of Hendrix. His covers were a nod in Jimi's direction. Nothing more nothing less. Many players who are BIG fans of SRV including Eric Clapton consider the Hendrix covers as Stevie's least inspiring work.

[csm]

The comment I quoted earlier in this thread comes from a guy who rates Brian May alongside Kurt Cobain as a 'talentless hack', and considers Rusty Cooley to be the greatest virtuoso alive.

 

 

Who's Rusty Cooley?

 

Incidentally, back in the late 40s, when Charlie Parker hired Miles Davis to replace departing trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, lotsa jazz fans didn't get it. Diz was a virtuoso who could tear off ridiculously loud, fast high-register choruses, but Miles - they claimed - couldn't play fast, was shaky in the high registers, had a weak, thin tone ... you can imagine. What Parker realised and others didn't was that Miles had a distinctly individual tone which was emotionally enormously affecting and effective, and that Miles's terse, laconic phrasing provided the perfect contrast to his own florid, fluent feel. In other words, the last thing he wanted was a Diz clone, perpetually trying to outspeed his predecessor.

 

'Technique' is valuable when you use it to get to where you're going. It's the vehicle, not the destination.

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

'Technique' is valuable when you use it to get to where you're going. It's the vehicle, not the destination.

Indeed. Too many players get too engulfed in the technical side of things, rather than using it as a tool to create music. Thus all the guys who spend more time polishing their technique than playing with others. It gets boring, and the only result is 100 people issuing 'albums' where they're sweeping over backing tracks. Every such person sounds exactly like the next guy, probably since they've all been practicing the exact same exercises and are all playing the exact same Ibanez RG's. Kinda like those SRV-copycats, only worse.

[GarysBlues]

Or as a means to enhance their own ability? Well Said.....And THAT my friend is EXACTLY what SRV did with hendrix!

[12ax7]

Also the reference to SRV and his covers of Hendrix being better than the actual recordings? Look Stevie was a Big fan of Hendrix. His covers were a nod in Jimi's direction. Nothing more nothing less. Many players who are BIG fans of SRV including Eric Clapton consider the Hendrix covers as Stevie's least inspiring work.

 

 

I agree, it wasn't SRV's best work. All I'm saying is it took me until I heard SRV playing those songs to figure out what Jimi was doing. But Hendrix wasn't about technically perfect playing, he played in a very raw style. It's a bloody good trick mind, but for my money a truly good guitarist should be able to do a bit more than that.

[EdMan63]

I agree with those who say he's plays loose, but never sloppy. Jimi Hendrix practically slept with his guitar. He played constantly. It was like a natural extension of his body. Nobody played like that in his day. I think when you compare him to these technically perfect guitarist of today, his playing will sound looser. But Jimi was a perfectionist and all his notes were suppose to be where they were.

Let's also keep in mind in some of his live playing, I would think that he might have been a little under the influence.

[GarysBlues]

I had the opportunity to see him in Bpt CT in the summer of 68. Between that and what few DVDs I have seen of him, I have never seen him really wasted trying to play. I HAVE seen SRV seriously {censored}ed up on stage. matter of fact that DVD he recorded in Canada Live at the Macombo? he's pretty doped up their. But playing high on Heroin wouldn't prohibit your ability like alcohol would. Thats evident in that DVD. I always had the impression Jimi was into WEED? I could way off base? But I have never heard of him fooling with Narcotic's. He overdosed on Barbituates[sleeping pills]they were prescribed to him in France and he read the prescription wrong, and took the same # of pills he was taking in the States. Which turned out to be 4-5 times the amout he was use to taking? But that and Chemicals and Weed? basically the same {censored} everyone was experimenting with in that period.

[csm]

Stimulant-wise, Hendrix rarely drank, and when he did it was disastrous, because he couldn't hold his liquor. He also had very little to do with hard drugs, though he did some coke at the Isle Of Wight (one of his worst-ever performances, and certainly the worst one preserved for posterity: I was there, and it doesn't look any better on film than it did at the time, though the sound's been majorly cleaned up). Man liked his weed, but at that time so did practically everyone else, apart from Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Keith Moon and the Dead's PigPen, who were serious boozehounds.

On the other hand, he was tripping on acid for his set at Monterey, which is one of the single most dynamic and exciting electric guitar showcases you can find anywhere. Didn't affect his playing any, but those woozy stage raps are sump'n else.

"Uhhhh ... peace, brother, it's rilly groovy to be here ... uhhh ..."

[foppy]

Yikes, that Rusty Cooley video was painful.

[csm]

Yikes, that Rusty Cooley video was painful.

 

 

Like the ancient joke about the two old Jewish guys at a Gentile banquet: the waiters roll in a trolley carrying a whole roast suckling pig with an apple in its mouth. One old guy turns to the other and says, "All zis for a baked apple?"

 

So much hard work, so much study, so much practice ... just to play that? I think I'd prefer the baked apple.

 

The other image that comes to mind is the old western-movie scenario: the saloon doors swing open, the gunfighter saunters in, guns hanging low, swaggers up to the town hotshot. "Hey, stranger ... they tell me you're fast ..."

 

The joke is that when Hendrix first arrived in London, that's more or less what he was. A more authentic bluesman than Clapton, a more outrageous showman than Townshend, a more audacious sculptor of weird noises than Beck: he did indeed comprehensively outgun all the local honchos. But if that had been all that he was, we wouldn't still be bothering to talk about him now. Being fast don't mean you last: some kid is ALWAYS gonna come along to jack up your best licks by a fistful of BPM.

 

Hendrix's technique - or lack of it, blah blah blah - is only of interest to guitarists. The millions of people who still care about him know that they're listening to a lot more than mere 'technique' could ever deliver. They love his music, his songs, his vibe, the spirit that his memory represents. His technique was only ever a means to that end.

 

i don't know if this board (or anything resembling it) will be around in 40 years. i certainly won't be. However, I think it's more likely that whoever's here will be talking about Jimi Hendrix than discussing Rusty Cooley.

[GarysBlues]

12ax7..........Stevies interpretation of Hendrix HELPED many understand Hendix's playing to a degree. [Right Hand player, playing Right Handed]. But you have to understand also. That was a loose interpretation of what Jimi did........As for a Bloody Good Trick? Not sure exactly what your refering to? The use of Feedback implimented in his playing? ...................... And I agree the Isle of Wright is probly the worst show I seen of Hendrix. Lot of BAD footage of him out here. The Isle of Wright was again a contract agreement. Hendrix didn't want to do that show. That also came during the Electric-Ladyland recordings which were interupted to do the show. Its shows in his playing.

[csm]

Gary, you're correct about the isle of Wight, but I think your chronology is slightly off. The Ladyland sessions came between late 67 and mid-68; IoW was in 1970. The misunderstanding may be because Hendrix was in the midst of intensive recording at his Electric Lady studio in NYC at the time. Because of the expense of constructing the studio and the freezing of his record royalties due to a protracted court case, Hendrix had been forced to go out and gig in order to stay afloat financially: in other words, to keep cranking out his old set at a time when he wanted to move forward with new music and new ideas.

i think the 'bloody good trick' 12AX7 means was to get away with playing in a raw, loose style when what he SHOULD have been doing was to work on his sweep picking in order to play as fast and clean as a 90s shredder.

[12ax7]

i think the 'bloody good trick' 12AX7 means was to get away with playing in a raw, loose style when what he SHOULD have been doing was to work on his sweep picking in order to play as fast and clean as a 90s shredder.

 

 

No, not "should be playing X" as such. Playing in the raw style Jimi was famous for is the trick I'm talking about. There is something about Jimi's loose timing, and questionable tuning that irritates me slightly. These are the things that made Jimi who he was and it's why some call him genius and others call him sloppy. It's not wrong, it's just not my thing.

[GarysBlues]

Yes, Thats what it was. I remember listening to or reading the story behind that concert. I knew it pulled it him away from the Studio.......I watched both Woodstock DVD's recently. That was another pretty impressive performance. There's maybe a 20 minute section in that show, I can't remember the exact song list at that point. But the Star Spangled Baner is where it ended up. Where his playing is out of this world. Thats the ZONE that he was able to play in. Just a great performance.

[csm]

No, not "should be playing X" as such. Playing in the raw style Jimi was famous for is the trick I'm talking about. There is something about Jimi's loose timing, and questionable tuning that irritates me slightly. These are the things that made Jimi who he was and it's why some call him genius and others call him sloppy. It's not wrong, it's just not my thing.

 

 

I'm 50% in agreement with you here. I certainly don't consider the 'loose timing' a flaw: his approach to time and groove is flexible and funky, part of his style and an ingredient of his greatness. The 'questionable tuning' is indeed a flaw: not of Hendrix's musicianship, but of the technology he had at his disposal. In other words: less durably-made strings than we have today, no onstage electronic tuners, etc. Hendrix used to shrug, "Only cowboys stay in tune," but the man had ears: if he could've done what he did and still stayed in tune, he would've done. The out-of-tuneness on some of the live stuff irritates me as much as it does you, but probably not half as much as it irritated Hendrix. In the studio, where he had more control over these things, he was reportedly fanatical about tuning.

[12ax7]

Loose timing isn't necessarily a flaw, some of my favourite guitarists play with scant regard for punctuality. I can't say I agree completely about the tuning though, plenty of his peers managed to stay in tune. But then I suppose Jimi was asking for it because he did go in for more than his fair share of whammy abuse.

The dude was good, no question. I just think he was a tad overrated.

[csm]

I suppose Jimi was asking for it because he did go in for more than his fair share of whammy abuse.

 

 

You're not wrong. Admittedly he built on what the likes of Ike Turner and Buddy Guy started in the 1950s, but Hendrix pretty much invented modern whammy abuse. Shame he didn't have access to the modern strings, trems and tuners which could've handled the treatment to which he subjected his guitars.

 

(If only someone would invent a time machine so we could zip back a few decades and give Jimi a Custom Shop Jeff Beck Strat ...)

[Pigsinzen]

You can't criticize Jimmy on Harmony Central. Even if it's legit