What if you're making music that has "mass appeal"? (long..)

[Giorgi]

OK this thread is probably more useful to me than anybody around here, because what I'm gonna talk about is possible methods of conveying your art that mostly apply to young people. Since you guys write more of a "serious" type of music, most of what I'm gonna say will be useless to you, but I'd really like opinions on my thinking anyway.

 

"Who's gonna buy my CDs?" - we're talking people stumbling across your facebook or myspace page and listening to 20 seconds of a song, then deciding if they'd like to listen further. If this was a songwriting forum I'd get criticized for this but it's the music biz forum here (with some of the same people as in songwriting so... :poke:) - I'm taking myself as an example, I'm 20 years old. I don't care about "great" music, okay maybe as a guitarist I had to go through Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen once because they are really good at what they do... I hated their music at first, then after a couple of listens it started sinking through and I became a fan. However, we shouldn't expect this type of behaviour from ordinary people who go on myspace and listen to music while they chat. For this type of audience, I feel, like I need to make music that strikes 20 seconds into the song and just makes you want to listen more. Some would say this type of approach dumbs down your art, they might be right, but this is not a songwriting analysis as I've said previously.

 

So what if your music has "mass" appeal? Aren't your chances of selling songs much higher? What is mass appeal?

 

The most popular styles on the radio and on TV, from what I see, are, in order: pop, hip-hop ("R'n'B", Rap), dance stuff (house, electro, many variations on this), rock, metal. I don't see any "biz news" about jazz or blues artists in the media, of course there are exceptions such as George Benson, B.B King... but generally the styles I mentioned are the most popular. So, if you make pop/rock, for example, your audience is larger, thus potential profit is much higher.

 

Next, we have to define other qualities that make music "massively appealing", beyond style: accessibility, melodical hooks, SLICK COMMERCIAL SOUND - I'm myself guilty of almost instantly disqualifying music that isn't mixed properly.

 

The conclusion to all of this - even though I love rock - if I pick a random rock band on myspace chances are their music will have these flaws:

 

- mixed improperly, which makes it sound amateurish and makes some people like me close the page.

- no hooks in the chorus or in the verse, doesn't grab the listener.

 

What happens when I listen to a new song by an "upcoming huge band"? I first heard Nickelback's "How You Remind Me" on a tape with 12 another songs by other artists, I've never heard of anything about either of these bands. I hadn't seen any videos on MTV, I wasn't bombarded with it. But somehow the song grabbed me. I remembered the band for years. Why can't young bands accept the fact that if they're not getting "the word out" it means that they don't make proper music? Most of what I hear doesn't go through, not because of promotional problems, but because it's just not good enough.

 

Promotional issues will always exist but the argument that the music is much more "out there" with the Internet is very valid. It's much easier to sell music now then it was before. I dislike how people twist the existence of a 10 000 myspace pages into "See?! So many bands, yet nobody can live off their craft". Sure, out of those 10 000 only 50 have what it takes. From those 50, 2-3 sell songs and some might enjoy a radio hit or what not. Statistics are skewed!

 

You gotta become the band with those qualities and your chances get much bigger - not just "be good", but be good as in "GRAB PEOPLE FAST". Also for lesser known bands music piracy isn't an issue!! Have you tried running a search in limewire for any local acts? Your songs are on the Internet for free only if you put give them away yourself. If you just put 1-2 songs on streaming, nothing will happen. Some geeks might rip it, but that's 0,5% of the audience. If people liked 1-2 of your songs and you don't give them out for free, they will pay those 2$... maybe even buy the album after a month because they really wanna check how those 10 songs sound like.

 

That's all I have to say for now.

[Mcfontio]

There's always room for the best at the top. Just write exceptional music. The trouble is: if everyone is exceptional, no one is. So, the most of us, though musically inclined, will never rise above the rest because we're not good enough. I'm cool with that, I have my own goals and enjoy it. I'm taking a real crack at it but realistically.... I'm far from a genius.

[danosongs]

I think what you are saying is that it is easier to sell music that is catchy, familiar and recorded professionally?

 

I think that idea has been tested and you are totally correct.

[Giorgi]

 

I think what you are saying is that it is easier to sell music that is catchy, familiar and recorded professionally? I think that idea has been tested and you are totally correct.

 

 

+

 

When you have catchy, familiar and professionally recorded music, your chances are much better than those of the other bands. So instead of playing the lottery, it's more like placing a bet on a horse race. Of course there's a minimum of promotion you need to do... but for a given amount of promotion, the results are much higher.

[sabriel9v]

 

I think what you are saying is that it is easier to sell music that is catchy, familiar and recorded professionally? I think that idea has been tested and you are totally correct.

 

 

 

Why can't young bands accept the fact that if they're not getting "the word out" it means that they don't make proper music? Most of what I hear doesn't go through, not because of promotional problems, but because it's just not good enough.

 

 

Define "getting the word out?" Does this involve having a hit single on top of the Billboard charts? There are several bands that built very solid and strong reputations without radio airplay; Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, the Talking Heads, King Crimson, the list goes on.

 

In terms of needing professional quality to sell music, yes, I agree with you. But I don't feel that one needs to have professionally recorded music in order to sell a concept or idea to a potential listener. To get someone hooked onto their songs and band's ideology, you don't need professional recordings to sell them on that.

[Poker99]

 

What happens when I listen to a new song by an "upcoming huge band"? I first heard Nickelback's "How You Remind Me" on a tape with 12 another songs by other artists, I've never heard of anything about either of these bands.

 

 

Yet, you heard them on a tape.

 

Without the major label push, they would never had made it to that tape, and then, to your ears.

 

Its a really catchy song yes, but who knows, maybe hundreds of songs as good or even better never made it to your ears.

[richardmac]

 

Yet, you heard them on a tape. Without the major label push, they would never had made it to that tape, and then, to your ears. Its a really catchy song yes, but who knows, maybe hundreds of songs as good or even better never made it to your ears.

 

 

I agree - without the major label, you never hear that song. And I am not a huge Nickelback fan, but for every hundred songs out there that are better, there are probably 5 million that are not. Not that it's a masterpiece, but it is a damn good catchy song. I could randomly listen to songs on CDBaby for two weeks straight and not hear anything anywhere near as catchy.

[Poker99]

 

And I am not a huge Nickelback fan, but for every hundred songs out there that are better, there are probably 5 million that are not.

 

 

True

[BlueStrat]

 

So, if you make pop/rock, for example, your audience is larger, thus potential profit is much higher.

 

 

The audience may be larger, but the pool of competition is, too, and ridiculously so. How may young aspiring musicians do you know wanting to be the next big thing in jazz or blues?

[Dancebass]

I don't think your thoughts are wrong at all, at some point it is VERY important to come to the realization that playing music is suppose to be "entertainment". It's the very premise of what we're doing, your primary job is to provide pleasure for people. That's a great thing!

 

Just try not to become hostile towards innovation. I detect a hint of that in your posts sometimes. I understand that the pretentious college "artist" that goes around calling everyone else "pretentious" all the time can sour people against that line of thought. Especially a realist.

 

That being said, it does take time to build a project to the point of being noticed. It's important to keep that in mind and use your imagination to expand outward into the future. If you just do what's being delivered currently you will miss the boat in three years when you finally get to the dock.

 

There is great value in moving the ball forward. Even if only an inch.

[BlueStrat]

I find it terribly ironic that so many guys making records, promoting, trying to develop a fan base and a following, wanting to tour, etc etc are at the same time so averse to the concept of music becoming popular, and regard popular music as '{censored}'. If the goal isn't to make your music as popular as you can make it, what's the point in expending all the time, energy and money?

[Mcfontio]

But at what point should they sacrifice their artistic tendencies to become popular (and not be contradictory in their goals)? Producers job? I totally agree though, the irony is astounding.

[Dancebass]

 

I find it terribly ironic that so many guys making records, promoting, trying to develop a fan base and a following, wanting to tour, etc etc are at the same time so averse to the concept of music becoming popular, and regard popular music as '{censored}'. If the goal isn't to make your music as popular as you can make it, what's the point in expending all the time, energy and money?

 

 

Ha. Ever notice how the word "slut" is hardly ever used by men?

[sabriel9v]

 

That being said, it does take time to build a project to the point of being noticed. It's important to keep that in mind and use your imagination to expand outward into the future. If you just do what's being delivered currently you will miss the boat in three years when you finally get to the dock.

 

 

+100

[Giorgi]

Interesting answers guys, however I wanted you to also explicitly state if you agree on this point:

 

When we say that only 1 band in a 1000 "makes it" (and the more ambitious you are the lesser the chance is, but let's just say 1/1000) - in those 1000 bands only a few of them "do things right". If you're one of those who possess the qualities the rate drops from 1/1000 to 1/25 or something like that. Agree?

 

- I'm not becoming bitter, just "playing devil's advocate". I myself won't ever write music that I don't enjoy myself.

[Dancebass]

 

Interesting answers guys, however I wanted you to also explicitly state if you agree on this point: When we say that only 1 band in a 1000 "makes it" (and the more ambitious you are the lesser the chance is, but let's just say 1/1000) - in those 1000 bands only a few of them "do things right". If you're one of those who possess the qualities the rate drops from 1/1000 to 1/25 or something like that. Agree? - I'm not becoming bitter, just "playing devil's advocate". I myself won't ever write music that I don't enjoy myself.

 

 

I can't relate it to numbers but you are generally correct. If you play music that people tend to enjoy on a mass scale, yes that can increase your chances of doing it for a living. If you are already within that framework and your project is extremely functional and you work hard to get noticed, again your chances are increased.

 

All you can do is work to increase your odds. Having 3 kids at age 25 can, and most likely will, {censored} you up. It limits your freedom for risk. If you are a {censored} whipped little bitch that can {censored} you up. If you become a {censored}ty alcoholic or junky, that can {censored} you up. There are many pitfalls that wait just on the outside of your goals.

 

I don't want to say this but I will. There are things that go on in this business that you do not want to think about. Real things. Ugly things.

 

Don't kid yourself into thinking this is some legit {censored} we're involved in, cause it aint!

[Giorgi]

 

There are things that go on in this business that you do not want to think about. Real things. Ugly things. Don't kid yourself into thinking this is some legit {censored} we're involved in, cause it aint!

 

 

Wow, bring it on! I mean, it may save me loads of trouble and everybody on the forum will find it interesting.

[Poker99]

 

I find it terribly ironic that so many guys making records, promoting, trying to develop a fan base and a following, wanting to tour, etc etc are at the same time so averse to the concept of music becoming popular, and regard popular music as '{censored}'. If the goal isn't to make your music as popular as you can make it, what's the point in expending all the time, energy and money?

 

 

I think the goal is to make music you like first, then wish for it to become popular, and "adapt it" if you need to. Great bands did this.

 

Its something we can feel... Sometimes. I mean, we are probably pretty bad at judging if someone is really making music they like or not...... But with bands like Nickelback, its so corporate and formulaic... Its like they are doing the same song over and over again... It sells YES, but I can't believe they would do the same song and use the same sound if they could do something new/fresh... They just don't want to trade the fame and money for their songwriting pleasures. Their label won't let them either. I can see why.

 

But I still can understand why some people would call them sellouts. I'm sure a lot of bands are doing it for the money/fame, and they HATE the music they put out.

[Dancebass]

 

Wow, bring it on! I mean, it may save me loads of trouble and everybody on the forum will find it interesting.

 

 

Ok it's nothing you don't already know instinctively but we tend to push it out of our heads rather than face it squarely. The problem with doing so is that the reality is much much worse that we actually imagined in the first place. People will always tell you that it's "who ya know" and we all accept that to a degree, thinking people are referring to A&R kids, Radio Dj's etc etc. All the fairytale stories that people like to sell to kids.

 

So let me gently try to explain, it's really not "who ya know" it's "who you are" that counts in the end. There are people in certain places, and they know good and goddamned well that they're in that place, these people hold the keys to the {censored}ing castle my man. And that ain't no {censored}! They do. They have the juice and the power to decide who gets sold to the public and who doesn't. They feel like they could sell ANYTHING to the masses. They believe they could polish any turd, call in the experts to create any image, anything! They know this, and to be perfectly honest, they're right about it to a degree. Sure they fall on their ass sometimes but 90% of the time they can shove any can of {censored} down the publics throat long enough and hard enough and eventually it will find an audience. Look into this gal named Bif Naked, they dragged that hack around for 6 {censored}ing years trying to make her ass a star and the public NEVER bit. Do you think you would get that kind of opportunity? Even if you out sold her ass by x1000! NOPE!!! {censored} YOU! How do you think she made that {censored} happen?

 

Here's the thing though, they're not giving that {censored} away for free to just any great band or bitch with a mouth! They don't give a {censored} how talented you are hot shot. It means absolutely {censored}ing nothing!! What matters is if you have the ability to expand their empire. Increase their power. Sure profit is great and they're always down with making a quick buck if they see it happening, but that's not what they REALLY want.

 

You wouldn't believe some of the bull{censored} storylines that have been created around these "artists". Struggled in the clubs yada yada my ass. Everyone fails to mention the guitar players Dad owns {censored}ing Ticket Master. How many real punk rock kids do you know named Thurston anyway?? Follow?

 

What religion are you?

[Poker99]

Nice post lol, I demand more!!!

[sabriel9v]

 

You wouldn't believe some of the bull{censored} storylines that have been created around these "artists". Struggled in the clubs yada yada my ass. Everyone fails to mention the guitar players Dad owns {censored}ing Ticket Master. How many real punk rock kids do you know named Thurston anyway?? Follow? What religion are you? Does your Uncle work for Paramount out in Hollywood? Does he do casting? The head of A&R's daughter is majoring in theatre at NYU and should graduate very soon. That could be helpful. If you ever want to see your rockstar ass on Jay Leno you better find a way to pay the {censored}ing piper. That's the no {censored} real deal.

 

 

Thurston Moore and Sonic Youth definitely paid their dues in the underground and indie rock/punk circuit in the late seventies so I don't know what you're talking about there.

 

As far as your comment on having family/friends with industry ties, that goes a long way! You're so right. I know all the guys in this band called Gift Horse and they're decent (they do this whole shoegazey/alt rock thing), but there are much better bands coming out our area. Gift Horse has a Fender sponsorship, major booking agent and pr people all because the lead singer is Hardy Morris's (of Dead Confederate) cousin and best friend. I also heard some stuff about Fleet Foxes kinda being set up. Robin Pecknold's sister works at Sub Pop, helped him find some session musicians to record the album and got them signed to Sub Pop (the contract was probably already in the works when they were recording). However, I will say Fleet Foxes released one of THE BEST albums to come out in a decade. They are extremely talented and deserve all the hype they get.

[Dancebass]

 

Thurston Moore and Sonic Youth definitely paid their dues in the underground and indie rock/punk circuit in the late seventies so I don't know what you're talking about there.

 

 

The Thurston + Ticket Master's Son comment was a blend of two seperate but true stories.

 

I also didn't mean to infer that getting to be a very large band is not possible without some form of behind the scenes gaming. It does happen, but it basically has to be shoved down their {censored}ing throats a la Metallica and some others. If you don't have the "in" you really only have one other option and that's to show up with a {censored}ing army of kids behind you.

[sabriel9v]

 

The Thurston + Ticket Master's Son comment was a blend of two seperate but true stories. I also didn't mean to infer that getting to be a very large band is not possible without some form of behind the scenes gaming. It does happen, but it basically has to be shoved down their {censored}ing throats a la Metallica and some others. If you don't have the "in" you really only have one other option and that's to show up with a {censored}ing army of kids behind you.

 

 

I think the army of kids approach is the only way to do it in 2010. If you get signed to a major fast and without a large fanbase a la MGMT, you're not going to sell any records. Hardly anyone is selling records these days and you'd simply be banking on some odd whim that the major won't try to stick their hands into your other cookie jars for cash. So banging on the door with an army of fans behind you is the only way to do it now.

[Dancebass]

 

banging on the door with an army of fans behind you is the only way to do it now.

 

 

Unless you have an "in". That's the disgusting thing that I learned and what I was attempting to relay. Sadly it really is just that vulgar sometimes. That means, the guy that shows up with an army of kids will often have to hold on a second, until the kid whose father is on the board at Viacom gets his record written and recorded for him.

[sabriel9v]

Unless you have an "in". That's the disgusting thing that I learned and what I was attempting to relay. Sadly it really is just that vulgar sometimes. That means, the guy that shows up with an army of kids will often have to hold on a second, until the kid whose father is on the board at Viacom gets his record written and recorded for him.

 

I can believe it. More stories about the evil and corrupt music business Grandpa Dancebass