Members Blackwatch Posted December 27, 2009 Members Posted December 27, 2009 HHappy Holidays Everyone...... I've been thinking a lot this holiday season about getting back into playing gigs. Partially because I have to sing at a funeral and it's got me going again.I quit playing gigs about three years ago and I didn't really know why at the time, I thought I was burnt out but what I really needed was clarity.I've been doing a lot of soul searching in this down time and I've come to some major realizations as a musician....: #1. The musicians that "make it" are the ones that devote themselves totally to music at an early age and don't quit. I think that anyone with any talent at all that devotes themselves totally will find some amount of success.I didn't do that. I wanted a family and a relationship and though I think it can be done I couldn't do it. And My music suffered because of it. #2. The musicians that make it are obsessed with music, they can't put it down and they live for it. They carry their instrument with them, hang out with other musicians, dress the part, and eat ,drink and sleep music. They love music above all else.I always had a love hate relationship with music. I was always driven because I couldn't make it sound like what it sounded like in my head. I had long periods where I didn't play at all because it irritated me. Yet every time I quit playing, it made me crazy because playing and writing is like therapy for me. I really need to play. And the most prolific period of my life is when I had a friend/Bass player encouraging me everyday giving me positive support. It just flowed out of me. #3. It takes a group of particular skills to become successful at music. Meaning someone who just sits in their room and becomes proficient at their instrument won't necessarily become successful. It takes social, business, and other skills to "make it.And though I'm talented in many of the facets of the business I seem to lack the drive it takes to make music a career. And with the other issues it just never happened. #4.You have to stick with it to "make it". It takes years to learn the essential skills to become truly good at music. It seems like many of the guys that have careers had many ups and downs before they got their big break. Like I said before I'd quit for long periods yet I always had to go back. There are exceptions to all these but for the most part they ring fairly true to me. Now this doesn't mean that I can't have fun locally playing for people. I still have faith in what I do and my ability to do it. I just needed to get honest with myself, and the funny thing is, I'm enjoying it a whole bunch more. It's been hard because I had to tear down some delusional walls to get to the truth and it wasn't comfortable at all. I think we all see ourselves a certain way and to change that isn't easy, but I think it's necessary. It was for me......
Moderators daddymack Posted December 27, 2009 Moderators Posted December 27, 2009 I hate to say this, but these are patently some of the great misconceptions! For every example you can think of to support your suppositions, you could find an exception. No you do not have to live/eat/sleep/breathe your music. No it doesn't necessarily take years to make it. There are no definitive answers, there is no one true path, no sure fire formula. Trying to define how to become successful in music is like trying to count all the stars in the universe. What you have stated above is simply how your life turned out. But it likely will not apply to everyone. And above all else, who is to say that you still won't succeed? Serendipity is a cruel mistress.... I find myself at crossroads like this every so often. Changing directions or stepping back or even doing something completely different is not always wrong...repetitively doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is not logical... My band had one, I repeat ONE paying gig in 2009 due to the state of the economy and the types of gigs we do. So I am re-structuring the band for a differnt type of gig/audience, and leaning into a completely different area of the business at the same time. Will these prove to be successful? I do not know, nor am I overly concerned. Part of the entire experience is the way one handles failure and disappointment...I'm getting pretty good at those.
Members richardmac Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I agree with daddymack. I just agreed with him in another thread, too. Hmm. Anyway. First, let's assume that by "making it" you mean getting a record deal, touring, making tons of cash, etc. Making a living in the music business (giving lessons, making instruments, etc) is totally possible but a totally different goal. What you say almost seems to be based on the idea that if you have the right skillset and you devote your life to music and you start young, you will "make it." It isn't true. You can have all of that and will most likely still fail. I know quite a few guys like that. They take other jobs to pay the bills and kid themselves that they still have a shot at "making it." At some point they eventually do give up, or they're still dreaming of "making it" in their 50's. Some guys "make it" but aren't exactly swimming in money. A LOT of guys who "make it" end up taking day jobs because the music business doesn't care about them any more. We're talking about guys in bands who had hit singles. The guy who wrote the hit single made a lot more money than the bass player in the band. I know a guy who produced albums you've heard of and he plays the same little places I play. And has a day job. Great guy, I'm not trying to bash him. I'm just saying that "making it" can be brief and when your time is up, it's time to find a day job. And then there are the rare, rare people who make it and either can sustain it, or they make enough money that they don't have to work again. Those people are like lottery winners (maybe the same odds.) They are extremely lucky and in some cases, insanely talented. So it's probable that even if you had gone "all in", you would not have made it. Don't beat yourself up over it. The music business does not care who "wants it bad enough." It's just a business. "Making it" is a crappy goal. Your odds are crap. Having fun playing music and having a lifelong enjoyment of music is a much better goal. I didn't learn this until I was about 38, but once I learned it, I really began to enjoy music a hell of a lot more. And yes I KNOW that I sound like a bitter grumpy old man, but trust me, I'm NOT bitter. I'm having a BLAST with music right now. The smartest thing I ever did in my entire life was to stop beating myself up because I didn't "make it." Music should be fun.
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I hate to say this, but these are patently some of the great misconceptions! For every example you can think of to support your suppositions, you could find an exception.No you do not have to live/eat/sleep/breathe your music.No it doesn't necessarily take years to make it.There are no definitive answers, there is no one true path, no sure fire formula.Trying to define how to become successful in music is like trying to count all the stars in the universe.What you have stated above is simply how your life turned out. But it likely will not apply to everyone.And above all else, who is to say that you still won't succeed?Serendipity is a cruel mistress.... I agree. For instance, the OP mentioned that it's better if one starts at a young age and is obsessed with music. I started playing percussion and drums at the age of 10 because I wanted to start a band in the fifth grade lol. I did cello and upright bass throughout high school and have been playing guitar for 8 years. I'm 23 now and I haven't "made it." If everything the OP said was true, I'd be Derek Trucks right now. Or better yet, guys like Shawn Lane wouldn't have been Shawn Lane, they'd be huge, certainly bigger than Slash, Kirk Hammett, or any of those other mediocre wankers who got by and became superstars. I feel that the music business is around 85% hard work now, but there are some people who are extremely lucky and the stars simply align for them. The Kid Cudis and Drakes of the business. That one band Paramore...even John Mayer. There's nothing truly special about these people, but they just so happen to have a style that is perfectly equipped for the mainstream and they just so happened to be in the right places at the right time.
Members Dancebass Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Slash = mediocre wankers Let's step outside!
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Let's step outside! I'm there, make your move...
Members Dancebass Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I'm there, make your move... Damn it! I ate too much over the holiday, can't even get out of the chair! No, I get what you're saying but I'll always defend Slash. I have a love for guys that I consider classics. Slash and Lemmy being two guys that never ripped anyone off, they do what they do and everyone else had to come to them. I respect that a great deal. It's hard to be an original, much less blaze a trail in this business, even if I find the tunes to be less than brilliant sometimes. I feel the same way about Joey Ramone and he's never been a great singer. Slash will always be a hero to me because I'm a huge {censored}ing TONE NAZI. Slash had the good sense to play a Les Paul throughout the entire 80's hairmetal horse{censored} that was the flavor of the time. The fact that Slash stuck to a classic Gibson/Marshall tone when everyone else at the time was jacked up with some Jackson/Kramer yuck tone {censored} will keep him in my hall of fame forever.
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Damn it! I ate too much over the holiday, can't even get out of the chair! No, I get what you're saying but I'll always defend Slash. I have a love for guys that I consider classics. Slash and Lemmy being two guys that never ripped anyone off, they do what they do and everyone else had to come to them. I respect that a great deal. It's hard to be an original, much less blaze a trail in this business, even if I find the tunes to be less than brilliant sometimes. I feel the same way about Joey Ramone and he's never been a great singer. Slash will always be a hero to me because I'm a huge {censored}ing TONE NAZI. Slash had the good sense to play a Les Paul throughout the entire 80's hairmetal horse{censored} that was the flavor of the time. The fact that Slash stuck to a classic Gibson/Marshall tone when everyone else at the time was jacked up with some Jackson/Kramer yuck tone {censored} will keep him in my hall of fame forever. Slash has got decent tone, but nothing truly unique or special. You spent your teen years in the eighties right? I was a teen in the 2000s, listening to Incubus and Radiohead. When I was really young I remember liking Nirvana, but I liked Metallica even more (mainly because I was scared of them). But GnR never did it for me, to be frank I can't stand those guys...but whatevs, to each his own
Members Dancebass Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Slash has got decent tone, but nothing truly unique or special. You spent your teen years in the eighties right? I was a teen in the 2000s, listening to Incubus and Radiohead. When I was really young I remember liking Nirvana, but I liked Metallica even more (mainly because I was scared of them). But GnR never did it for me, to be frank I can't stand those guys...but whatevs, to each his own Yea, I can see how a guy your age would see all the doushie aspects of GnR. They were actually a slight departure from the even more doushie stuff going on at the time. Hard to believe but there is a little truth in it. Sure they were still LA cockrock but THATS ALL THERE WAS!!! ha ha. Yes, they still had cheese all over them but they were no Bon Jovi.
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Yea, I can see how a guy your age would see all the doushie aspects of GnR. They were actually a slight departure from the even more doushie stuff going on at the time. Hard to believe but there is a little truth in it. Sure they were still LA cockrock but THATS ALL THERE WAS!!! ha ha. Yes, they still had cheese all over them but they were no Bon Jovi. Bon Jovi Back then it was Motley Crue, Bon Jovi, Poison, Van Halen, the cheese factory list goes on. Now it's Buckcherry (I would personally slap all of these guys, they are the BIGGEST GnR ripoffs!), Nickelback, Daughtry, all of these guys are continuing the legacy of we play super cool mainstream rock and screw a bunch of hot chicks, but behind closed doors we all secretly do coke so we can stay up late, balance our checkbooks and plan the next dramatic phase of our career with our manager... However, I will say when I was like seven and saw Slash doing a guitar solo on top of Axl's piano I was floored. But then I saw the video for Enter the Sandman, NWA 100 Miles and Runnin and Pearl Jam's Jeremy video and I forgot all about them
Members BlueStrat Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I hate to say this, but these are patently some of the great misconceptions! For every example you can think of to support your suppositions, you could find an exception. There are always exceptions, but that doesn't mean what he said isn't generally true. Artists, and musicians in particular, seem to have this innate ability to dismiss the obvious and cling to exceptions to make themselves feel like the have just as good a chance as anyone else at realizing their dreams. The fact is, overall, Dean is correct-assuming a decent talent level and good material to work with, the young guy who gets really good, focuses on music obsessively, doesn't weigh himself down with a wife and kids and a mortgage, learns as much as he can about the business he wished to earn a living from and doesn't give up, stands an infinitely better chance of being a success in ther music biz than a guy who wants it all and believes he can have it all. Are there exceptions? Sure there are. Are the exceptions the norm? Obviously not, or they wouldn''t be called "exceptions." Thinking we can "have it all" without having to sacrifice for it is what sells lottery tickets and fills casinos. It pays for just enough people to keep us believing that we can have it all, too. Some of us pursue it for far too many years past the time when we should.
Members espec10001 Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I agree with the comment about music being fun. Musicians should learn to have fun with music first, and if they are lucky (i.e. the lottery of music business), they could do it for a living. But if they don't hit the lottery, well they'll still having fun playing.
Members richardmac Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 The fact is, overall, Dean is correct-assuming a decent talent level and good material to work with, the young guy who gets really good, focuses on music obsessively, doesn't weigh himself down with a wife and kids and a mortgage, learns as much as he can about the business he wished to earn a living from and doesn't give up, stands an infinitely better chance of being a success in ther music biz than a guy who wants it all and believes he can have it all. Statistically, yes. It's the equivalent of buying, say, 50 lottery tickets instead of 1. The odds are still going to crush you*. I'd also disagree with the idea that John Mayer isn't any more talented than anyone else. If that were true, I'd be able to find all kinds of guys on CDBaby that are just as good or better. So far I've never even bought an artist from CDBaby. Not one. And I've checked out hundreds. I honestly like the guy's music. As far as G+R are concerned, the lead singer had the most annoying voice I've ever heard. Still can't stand it to this day. But Slash can play guitar. Let's not mistake "not liking an artist" for them not having a lot of talent, more than most artists. espec10001 put it very well. Enjoy the hell out of music. If you win the lottery, fantastic. But if your "career plan" in life is to "make it big," in this day and age, you're an idiot, err, I mean, dreamer. That should NOT stop you from making CD's and playing gigs - do it because you love music. Because you can't NOT do it. *DISCLAIMER - If your goal is to sell 5,000 CD's with your band and go on a small tour, then the young guy above was a WAY better shot than the weekend warrior musician. No doubt. But we're talking about "making it."
Members Kramerguy Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 The fact that Slash stuck to a classic Gibson/Marshall tone when everyone else at the time was jacked up with some Jackson/Kramer yuck tone {censored} will keep him in my hall of fame forever. Blasphemy! I see the polar opposite- nearly everyone uses Fender or Gibson.. Even back in the 80's the Gibson and Fenders were the best selling and most used. It takes balls to step out of the comfort zone and really build a more unique sound than the usual brands. I get wonderful tones out of my Kramer that no Gibson or Strat will ever be able to duplicate, BUT my Kramer can easily duplicate a strat/tele/LP tones.
Members Dancebass Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Blasphemy! I see the polar opposite- nearly everyone uses Fender or Gibson.. Even back in the 80's the Gibson and Fenders were the best selling and most used. It takes balls to step out of the comfort zone and really build a more unique sound than the usual brands. I get wonderful tones out of my Kramer that no Gibson or Strat will ever be able to duplicate, BUT my Kramer can easily duplicate a strat/tele/LP tones. Kramer = future matchsticks. :poke:
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 The fact is, overall, Dean is correct-assuming a decent talent level and good material to work with, the young guy who gets really good, focuses on music obsessively, doesn't weigh himself down with a wife and kids and a mortgage, learns as much as he can about the business he wished to earn a living from and doesn't give up, stands an infinitely better chance of being a success in ther music biz than a guy who wants it all and believes he can have it all. Are there exceptions? Sure there are. ...:phil: I'd also disagree with the idea that John Mayer isn't any more talented than anyone else. Let me rephrase. John Mayer is a talented songwriter and musician, but he's one of those people where the stars kind of aligned and he has the perfect style for what the mainstream wants. His guitar playing is just edgy and lyrical enough to not put people off, but still make them feel as if what they're hearing is chock full of soul. He knows how to work the hell out of the verse chorus verse chorus bridge formula and his songs are carefully arranged. Overall, I feel that Mayer is not too raw and soulful for mainstream fans, but he's not the preferred cup of tea for blues and soul purists. Those Two Rock and Fender Vibrolux amps in the backline are also a nice touch
Members Giorgi Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 You guys talk about mainstream a lot and how you have to have "stars align for you". At the same time, a founding member and singer of a band called Saliva (10 years on a major label and still going pretty good) said in an interview that he got rejected twice by every major label he knew of, before he got a deal. What's the conclusion here? Star alignment seems to happen for those people who go out there and very, very actively pursue their dreams. Let's not play too much into this "Oh, he got noticed when he played his second show when he was 16 [like Avril Lavigne], and since then they hired songwriters to write material for him..." There's a lot of hard work required to get any kind of attention. Let's say that this is for the business part of the "making it" affair. How about the actual material? Here's an approach that I don't think many people consider. "Making it" is making a business model work, first and foremost. If that's a priority then what you have to do is craft music that you know has mainstream appeal. Mainstream music can be copycatting something that's already well ingrained (Creed, Nickelback, Three Days Grace bla bla)... or putting a slight twist on things that already exist... a.k.a originality. This sounds very un-artistical but who cares, we're talking about making it... If you can emulate Nickelback's material very well, and add some other stylistical details that you've heard elsewhere - who cares? Just do it. Third part would be promoting your music sufficiently and I guess that you can't do this without a record label or huge money in some other form.
Members Mcfontio Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 The more motivated the better when it comes to a career in music but, I don't for a minute think there's a set list of prerequisites to "make it". I see two maybe three factors. (But then again, I haven't at all "made it" either so, who am I to say?) 1. how good are you? 2. how many people like your music? 3. are you in the right place at the right time? Kramer = future matchsticks. :poke: Haha, I might have to agree. I can see a Kramer making tones that a strat or paul couldn't. But to say that it could replicate a paul or strat tone? I would disagree. Anyway, I'm under the impression that finger technique and pickups are more important than the wood will ever be - in terms of the sound.
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 What's the conclusion here? Star alignment seems to happen for those people who go out there and very, very actively pursue their dreams. Let's not play too much into this "Oh, he got noticed when he played his second show when he was 16 [like Avril Lavigne], and since then they hired songwriters to write material for him..." There's a lot of hard work required to get any kind of attention. This is true, but don't throw talent out of the equation. I've got a couple close friends who love music to death and could actively pursue it all day, but they won't experience the kind of success that Saliva (yuck!) has. They're just not talented songwriters and musicians which means they would have to rely even more on making a specific business model work for them.
Members Kramerguy Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 it goes without saying, a lazy and unmotivated musician won't "make it" anywhere. Now add the rest of the people who are eager and willing to work hard... Granted, the harder someone works at it, the more likely they will get further.. but working smarter is probably the better descriptive term overall, and even then a person is only gaining a fraction of a percent more chance to make it past everyone else... it really is about luck at that point. There's vast talent on every level. I know locals who can bury me on guitar. I have nothing to offer that they can't match and beat. So why do I bother? Because I know as well as anyone, that it's got little to do with sheer talent anymore. Hardly has anything to do with anything anymore. I mean.. look at who is famous right now (jonas bros, miley, etc..) and tell me that they offer some unique talent to anything....
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Granted, the harder someone works at it, the more likely they will get further.. but working smarter is probably the better descriptive term overall, and even then a person is only gaining a fraction of a percent more chance to make it past everyone else... it really is about luck at that point. There's vast talent on every level. I know locals who can bury me on guitar. I have nothing to offer that they can't match and beat.So why do I bother? Because I know as well as anyone, that it's got little to do with sheer talent anymore. Hardly has anything to do with anything anymore. I mean.. look at who is famous right now (jonas bros, miley, etc..) and tell me that they offer some unique talent to anything.... This is the key with anything you do. btw why is everyone using the Jonas Bros and Miley Cyrus as examples of what's hot right now? I like Mastodon a lot, they're pretty popular and all those guys are super talented and easily worked for a decade playing small clubs, recording for various indie labels until they finally got the "right" major label deal.
Members Kramerguy Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 because mastodon will always take a back seat to acts like Jonas and miley- -As much as Madonna and Whitesnake were a couple of the main heavyweights of the 80's
Moderators daddymack Posted December 28, 2009 Moderators Posted December 28, 2009 The fact is, overall, Dean is correct-assuming a decent talent level and good material to work with, the young guy who gets really good, focuses on music obsessively, doesn't weigh himself down with a wife and kids and a mortgage, learns as much as he can about the business he wished to earn a living from and doesn't give up, stands an infinitely better chance of being a success in ther music biz than a guy who wants it all and believes he can have it all. Are there exceptions? Sure there are. Are the exceptions the norm? Obviously not, or they wouldn''t be called "exceptions." Thinking we can "have it all" without having to sacrifice for it is what sells lottery tickets and fills casinos. It pays for just enough people to keep us believing that we can have it all, too. Some of us pursue it for far too many years past the time when we should. And as I said, Serendipity is a cruel mistress. How many talented guys have come through LA, NY, Nashville, Austin, etc. with all the right things and not made it? How long did you hang in LA trying to get that break? Maybe you left too soon? No one will ever know.Of course the odds will move slightly, and I do mean slightly, in the favor of the most dedicated, but that still does not alter the overwhelming balance of chance. In any artistic endeavor, this is going to be true, and there will always be the overnight successes, the lightning strikes, the out of nowhere rise to fame and glory stories...and those are always going to attract attention.
Members sabriel9v Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 because mastodon will always take a back seat to acts like Jonas and miley- I don't think too many Jonas Brothers fans are willing to get Jonas Brothers tattoos or have the brothers names carved into their chests.
Moderators daddymack Posted December 28, 2009 Moderators Posted December 28, 2009 I don't think too many Jonas Brothers fans are willing to get Jonas Brothers tattoos or have the brothers names carved into their chests. wait a few years for them to turn 18...
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