Members zooLemon Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 It sucks as a musician, obviously, but what are you going to do? Music has been primarily digital since the advent of the CD. Anything that is digital can be copied infinitely, with negligible cost and negligible risk, and this is NEVER going to change. This is a period of transition. No one knows what the new status quo will be, only that the current one doesn't work. Just because stealing music is wrong, you can't structure a business model around the assumption that it won't happen, or that there's something you can do to stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted October 30, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 This whole thread has really got me questioning my actions. Seriously. I'm going to stop stealing music.... today. I'll see how it goes and maybe not steal any tomorrow too. Downloading hundreds of free songs is clearly a jackass thing to do. I'm gonna slow my roll. And it is starting to get boring after a couple weeks. It seems a lot like internet porn: a destructive waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 It seems a lot like internet porn: a destructive waste of time. hey, now let's not get all crazy try shifting to fetish sites or shemales or classic shot-on-film porn or something On a les important note - fromyour original description of you grabbing stuff you don't even listen to, etc. It does kind of sound like you got into a compulsive sort of behavior pattern...I mean the reward was coming from the repetitive performing of the act of acquisition itself instead some form of practical ,extrinsic benefit ("music I'm going to listen to") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sabriel9v Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 How many of those people who download the music are going to run out and buy it? NONE! They already own it now.So all that "exposure" means ZERO revenue to the artist.How can that model possible support *new* artists? It can't. Which is why great musicians end up busing tables at Outback steak house instead of working on new material for you {censored}ing fantastic fans... Don't act like musicians have never had to work jobs. Wes Montgomery, Muddy Waters, and countless other musicians worked in factories doing welding work and the like even while they were signed. Plenty of artists have kept their small retail or restaurant jobs while being signed to a major record label. It's going to take a couple years for you to receive your royalties anyway and then you've got to pay back that fat advance that the label threw at you like confetti. Exposure is exposure, I never said it would equal revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 So the solution to this unsolvable problem would be... (drum roll) That's easy; never record anything! I'm not being flippant, I'm serious! Never record a damn thing! If I can get another band together, that's going to be our philosphy. No albums, no mp3s, no music. If you want to see us, you have to get off your arses and come see us! That's it. Nothing else! That way, we don't spend ages and time perfecting a great album for the likes of these entitled arrogant little {censored}s to steal, there's no product to steal, our music, buzz and merch speaks for itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Don't act like musicians have never had to work jobs. Wes Montgomery, Muddy Waters, and countless other musicians worked in factories doing welding work and the like even while they were signed. Plenty of artists have kept their small retail or restaurant jobs while being signed to a major record label. It's going to take a couple years for you to receive your royalties anyway and then you've got to pay back that fat advance that the label threw at you like confetti. Exposure is exposure, I never said it would equal revenue. You must be extremely inexperienced! You're just wrong, sorry! There is no revenue to be made from illegal downloading! None. Nada! Zip! Bar maybe the likes of Western Digital and Seagate selling hard drives! I think you're just cheap. You place no value on this art you apparently love. So quite frankly, you're not entitled to an opinion! It's just like politics! If you don't vote, you don't have a say! If you don't pay for your music, your opinion is irrelevant and I hope one day someone spanks you for it! Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sabriel9v Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 You must be extremely inexperienced! You're just wrong, sorry! There is no revenue to be made from illegal downloading! None. Nada! Zip! Bar maybe the likes of Western Digital and Seagate selling hard drives!I think you're just cheap. You place no value on this art you apparently love. So quite frankly, you're not entitled to an opinion!It's just like politics! If you don't vote, you don't have a say! If you don't pay for your music, your opinion is irrelevant and I hope one day someone spanks you for it!Enjoy! No, I'm not inexperienced and I'm not going to lie to myself and argue in circles like you and Kramerguy have managed to do. I don't advocate illegal downloading, I stated earlier that I stream my music. However, I'm not going to complain and be upset about a beast that cannot be defeated. Both of you sound like the farmers and families in the Grapes of Wrath, the bank is taking our land and changing things with tractors! I felt bad for those families too, but times changed and you've got to evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 OK what's your idea? How should we involve to embrace this technology, make it profitable to keep artists putting out albums you obviously want and not quit and take up careers elsewhere? You have time, I'm off to band rehersal now... But I'll definately have a read of your relevation when I get back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 So the solution to this unsolvable problem would be... (drum roll) Well, since self control and any semblance of morality has gone out the window decades ago, I guess there really isn't one. We are only reaping what we as a culture have sown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sabriel9v Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 OK what's your idea? How should we involve to embrace this technology, make it profitable to keep artists putting out albums you obviously want and not quit and take up careers elsewhere?You have time, I'm off to band rehersal now... But I'll definately have a read of your relevation when I get back! Look up my thread on artist models and how free music can either harm or help you. Some people thought it made sense...I think it's just really long and random thoughts, but I got into the zone and just went for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 No, I'm not inexperienced and I'm not going to lie to myself and argue in circles like you and Kramerguy have managed to do. I don't advocate illegal downloading, I stated earlier that I stream my music. However, I'm not going to complain and be upset about a beast that cannot be defeated. Both of you sound like the farmers and families in the Grapes of Wrath, the bank is taking our land and changing things with tractors! I felt bad for those families too, but times changed and you've got to evolve. Oh come on, how did I "argue myself in circles"?? I didn't. I've argued the same points all along. Let me spell it out for you (does HC have any Crayons??) 1. Illegal downloading is.. (duh!)... illegal 2. It hurts labels, artists, producers, and even the 'paying' fans. another duh!... 3. If you do it, you are breaking the law. 4, I know I can't stop it, I'm not even complaining about being unable to stop it, but this thread isn't about that, so stop trying to turn it on ppl. 5. This thread was solely about JUSTIFYING the THEFT, which I have consistently pointed out the disillusion and fallacies with that concept. ..And your analogy is crap. Try this one instead: Everyone goes 65mph on a 55mph highway, there's no WAY anyone is going to stop it, and everyone does it. But it IS still illegal, and when you get caught, are you the guy who bitches all day long to your co-workers about how you didn't deserve that ticket because "everyone was speeding".. well boo-hoo.. I actually laugh at you guys when I hear these stories, because I know the truth --> break the law, get caught, pay the consequences. BS was right about the looting analogy also, it's really not any different. Except that I can shoot a looter on sight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Well, since self control and any semblance of morality has gone out the window decades ago, I guess there really isn't one. We are only reaping what we as a culture have sown. yep. Just turn on any prime time cop show and you will more often than not see graphic and extremely violent footage of an 8 year old girl being sexually assaulted. Society has lost all moral compass. And look what we have to show - people openly admitting to theft, insane violence on TV, ever more crooked politicians, and several generations deep of obese unhealthy kids. Humans really are parasites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Humans really are parasites. (edit - whoops glidepoint took out whole sections) I don't think it's much in contention that we don't have, at least, some of that in us (though I think we are often just straight terminal preds) I mean we don't photo or thermo-chemo synthesize....(I suppose we do a little scavenging/reduction, but not that much) so it's part of us It's kind of funky though, that parasites get such a bad rep compared to straight terminal predation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sabriel9v Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Oh come on, how did I "argue myself in circles"?? I didn't. I've argued the same points all along. Let me spell it out for you (does HC have any Crayons??) 1. Illegal downloading is.. (duh!)... illegal 2. It hurts labels, artists, producers, and even the 'paying' fans. another duh!... 3. If you do it, you are breaking the law. 4, I know I can't stop it, I'm not even complaining about being unable to stop it, but this thread isn't about that, so stop trying to turn it on ppl. 5. This thread was solely about JUSTIFYING the THEFT, which I have consistently pointed out the disillusion and fallacies with that concept. ..And your analogy is crap. Try this one instead: Everyone goes 65mph on a 55mph highway, there's no WAY anyone is going to stop it, and everyone does it. But it IS still illegal, and when you get caught, are you the guy who bitches all day long to your co-workers about how you didn't deserve that ticket because "everyone was speeding".. well boo-hoo.. I actually laugh at you guys when I hear these stories, because I know the truth --> break the law, get caught, pay the consequences. BS was right about the looting analogy also, it's really not any different. Except that I can shoot a looter on sight... Few people are paying the consequences for downloading music...I'm going to let you continue to shout out loud in the street and get drowned out by the noise. But personally, I'm tired of this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Few people are paying the consequences for downloading music...I'm going to let you continue to shout out loud in the street and get drowned out by the noise. But personally, I'm tired of this debate. well that was the whole point No risk means most people will do it. some will even try to justify it *gasp*! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 I don't think that we have , at least, some of that in us though I think we are often just straihgt terminal preds)I mean we don't photo or thermo-chemo synthesize....(I suppose we do a little scavenging/reduction, but not that much) so it's part of usIt's kind of funky though, that parasites get such a bad rep compared to straight terminal predation haha, I was just referring to the Matrix movie about that speech... but really I always saw us more like bacteria... If you put some bacteria on a meatball and sit it out in an open warm room, the bacteria will eat, and reproduce, then eat some more, then reproduce more.. completely unaware that the meatball will eventually be consumed, and the more they reproduce, the faster the consumption will happen.... We consume and reproduce with no regards to the amount of resources at our disposal. Classic bacteria, us humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 haha, I was just referring to the Matrix movie about that speech... but reallyI always saw us more like bacteria...If you put some bacteria on a meatball and sit it out in an open warm room, the bacteria will eat, and reproduce, then eat some more, then reproduce more.. completely unaware that the meatball will eventually be consumed, and the more they reproduce, the faster the consumption will happen....We consume and reproduce with no regards to the amount of resources at our disposal. Classic bacteria, us humans. oohh, that's a funky one - since the meatball is statically finite, it's a terminal condition from the get go regardless of rate (the meatball doesn't renew even if the bacteria just "sips") One survival advantage rapid growth can have is rival displacement (you see this with brewing yeast for instance, those little guys need to get a beachhead set up before stuff like lactobacilli get in there...it's also been an issue brought up in human areas - including modern politically volatile local areas where having more of "us" can help against more of "them")While it can put stress on the longer-term resources, it's a bit of a sacrifice fly...without it you can be at an immediate survivability crisishell, penicillium (OK, that's a fungus) goes in with chemical weapons a blazin!!! [Research note : I think some stuff by, get this name... Prof Phil Graves...might, and just might - bet it's been 15 years since I've read any of that research looks at things of that nature from an econ perspective - eh, just a handle for further looks if that sort of thing is of interest] now in some conditions where the yeast can reach homeostasis (we do this with our gut bacteria in an opponent process, and we can see it due to environmental facotor imbalancing...in essence, "noticing" chemically, in stalled fermentation in brewing, esp meads...we actually coax them out of that on purpose! so we can drink their toxic piss!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jacob Mathews Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 You know, in times like these, I'm reminded that Chumbawamba understood it best. Enjoy the song. Pass it along http://chumba.com/media/PassItAlong%28MP3mix%29.mp3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 I think it brings up some points - though maybe not the ones initially intended such as "spectators, but not participants" - for instance, it can speak to the difference between creators and "mere copyists" as Lessig points to in his work "Free Culture" the "you can't Legislate peoples' behavior" can speak back to the point Jacob was talk about with 'I wish people would be more open minded' -- as the sound byte is an example of a more closed-minded statement...assuming that the operational mechanism of laws has to be to control behavior as opposed to providing redress. This can even tie into the civil v crimlaw stuff we were talking about earlier and THAT can speak back to an extreme version of "spectator v participant" wherein the people aren't even fully spectating (a good understanding of the laws and issues) let along participating and suggests "people are going to do what they want to do " as a finality and "we do what we want to do...whatever" is a dismissal which is pretty closed minded esp in light of "trying this future on for size"which can speak to not just legal, but social and philosophical consideration.[as we have with, say, child porn - we have laws, crimlaws, strict liability crimlaws -- but we also have societal and philosophical structures that discourage it. and, it still happens]Which again ties back to just being "spectator" or being participant not only in our legal system, but in our culture as well even "people like Mp3s" in relation to the speaker's other statements is another interesting part - as used here it suggests that "mp3" is synonymous with piracy which does not have to be the case..Mp3, peer to peer, etc have significant legitimate useand can again speak back to Jacob's wish about people being more open-minded The "best things in life are free" was an interesting fulcrum point esp as it is divorced from it's qualifying line which does make for an interesting lead in into the Lars Ulrich interview which takes us from that does bring up the indirect (vicarious and contributory) infringement issues which 'brings us back to do' question of mere spectator v participant in the infringement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dk123123dk Posted October 30, 2009 Members Share Posted October 30, 2009 Yes, you may listen to a street musician for free. That doesn't entitle you take him home with you and own him does it? I busk in Boston all the time. People are downloading me with their iPhones all the time. How do I prevent them from taking me home with them? I am actually flattered when somebody records me performing. I don't see it as them stealing from me at all. Even if they don't toss a buck in the guitar case... dk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Silent Heart Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 My question is how can anybody - any of you - expect to sell music any more? Do you have any idea what you're up against? It's ridiculous. We don't, and yes. It will be interesting to see how things pan out for the music biz once the internet dust settles, but it feels like the dust has been settling for over 10 years now with no end in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 I busk in Boston all the time. People are downloading me with their iPhones all the time. How do I prevent them from taking me home with them? I am actually flattered when somebody records me performing. I don't see it as them stealing from me at all. Even if they don't toss a buck in the guitar case... dk Well...anyone who would listen to music recorded on an iphone deserves what they get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 I busk in Boston all the time. People are downloading me with their iPhones all the time. How do I prevent them from taking me home with them? I am actually flattered when somebody records me performing. I don't see it as them stealing from me at all. Even if they don't toss a buck in the guitar case...dk I think there are different types of performer, which kinda points to my belief that a creator has an absolute right to decide how his or her music is distributed. As you describe, you choose to perform your music and you're happy for people to record you and rely on their generocity or appreciation of what you are doing as a revenue generator. Personally, I enjoy (some) buskers. There's a guy frequently at Kings X station in London who plays sax and the guy's a real talent! He can play the socks off that thing, I would totally buy a CD of his. But it is what it is, and I do sling some change in the ol' case. Sorry getting off the point. An artist (or band) who is looking to get a wider audience needs the revenue to get exposure! Myspace and free CD-Rs does not a career make, it does not matter how good the person is. Magazine plugs are not free; internet sites are not free; CD replication is not free, recognition is not free. Whether signed or unsigned, bands should have the right to decide on the method and cost of their own distribution, leaving it up to the punter to decide whether they are acceptable or not. I think that should carry through to major label bands which I honestly don't think is too expensive! £13 for a new release some of which come with bonus features, DVDs etc... It really is not expensive! I still think the real fight back for artists is to boycott the very bone of contention and that is recorded music in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pomerlaw Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 Really. How big do you think my CD collection is ?? I have over 500 cd's at about $20 a pop. Yeah do the math. I don't think you represent the casual music fan... And you did buy all this music, why do kids today couldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeuceyBaby Posted October 31, 2009 Members Share Posted October 31, 2009 if you are going to cite numbers, at least use google and type something that has at least a remote factual basis what does it matter... its still a ridiculous amount of money per song some lady from Minnesota ordered to pay 7.6 million dollars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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