How artists make money now

[3shiftgtr]

 

Yeah. You just described my game plan. I just released my third CD, and this is the first time I've done it "for real." I had CD's manufactured and shrink wrapped, instead of burning my own. I had a TV appearance on a Tampa CBS channel, I have two radio appearances scheduled, and a CD release party at a professional recording studio (Pro Star in Tampa) scheduled for next week. I can't tell you how freaking fired up I am about everything that is going on. The biggest thing I have learned this time around is that you get out what you put in. It's a great idea to be in forums like this one and learn everything you can. And then you need to bust ass and get things moving. And money matters, whether you do this as a hobby or for a living. Discmakers doesn't care who you are - if you want 100 CD's, or 1,000, you pay them money, they make your discs and mail them to you. If you want to have color copies made of stuff for your press kit, Staples wants money. Music can be an expensive hobby! So I think that everyone, from hobbyists to pros, needs to share ideas and discuss ways to keep revenue flowing.

 

 

Hell yay-yuh Sir Richard!!!! 3rd disc! Congrats! You sir are a music warrior! Keep on sluggin' bro!

[sabriel9v]

 

Well, if you are not Britney/Justin/Jonas, you are the middle class; it IS your money now! Most indie artists with a little experience can make a well produced product for less than 5k. If they print 1,200 discs for $1,500 and spend $1,500 on promotion, and they sell 1000 discs at $10 a piece, they've made money!!!! So their break even point is 800 discs!!! Hell, add some download sales and another 100 in disc sales, and you can afford to order some pie after the meal at Waffle House after the gig!

 

 

This sounds like a good plan and it is to some extent, but I personally feel the physical distribution aspect of your formula has been blown out of proportion ie making it appear as if selling a thousand cds is easy. It's actually not that easy and if an artist is at the level where they can sell 1,000 cds and make $10 off of each record, we're also assuming that they're selling these cds straight to the consumer at shows. If they go through a record store or vendor, a vendor is going to take a percentage of the profit so they don't make $10, the figure is actually closer to $6-7. That's not breaking even. The artist is better off going digital and printing up less than a thousand discs.

[BlueStrat]

 

This sounds like a good plan and it is to some extent, but I personally feel the physical distribution aspect of your formula has been blown out of proportion ie making it appear as if selling a thousand cds is easy. It's actually not that easy and if an artist is at the level where they can sell 1,000 cds and make $10 off of each record, we're also assuming that they're selling these cds straight to the consumer at shows. If they go through a record store or vendor, a vendor is going to take a percentage of the profit so they don't make $10, the figure is actually closer to $6-7. That's not breaking even. The artist is better off going digital and printing up less than a thousand discs.

 

 

On the other hand, the guy who engineered my first CD told me that if I didn't think I could sell 1000 CDs in a year, I probably had no business making one.

 

Using that criteria, most guys making them shouldn't be. Record companies used to fulfill that role of gatekeeper back before the internet and home recording made it possible for everyone and their cockapoo to make a record. Yes, the record companies did produce some crap strictly to sell, but they also produced a lot of great classics. The new open market has led to the production of mostly crap. It's no wonder most people can't sell 1000 CDs.

[3shiftgtr]

 

This sounds like a good plan and it is to some extent, but I personally feel the physical distribution aspect of your formula has been blown out of proportion ie making it appear as if selling a thousand cds is easy. It's actually not that easy and if an artist is at the level where they can sell 1,000 cds and make $10 off of each record, we're also assuming that they're selling these cds straight to the consumer at shows. If they go through a record store or vendor, a vendor is going to take a percentage of the profit so they don't make $10, the figure is actually closer to $6-7. That's not breaking even. The artist is better off going digital and printing up less than a thousand discs.

 

 

Sure...1k in sales is daunting when you have to do it yourself, isn't it? Then folks get all pissed when their "act" doesn't get signed to a company that is expected to invest money in the act's talent. They complain how 'unfair' the biz is. It takes just as much hustle to sell 1k cd's whether you are on a label or you're an indie.

 

"It takes more pain to sell art than it does to make it." Anonymous

[wlb1]

well whatever they do. they deserve it.

[sabriel9v]

 

Sure...1k in sales is daunting when you have to do it yourself, isn't it? Then folks get all pissed when their "act" doesn't get signed to a company that is expected to invest money in the act's talent. They complain how 'unfair' the biz is. It takes just as much hustle to sell 1k cd's whether you are on a label or you're an indie. "It takes more pain to sell art than it does to make it." Anonymous

 

 

 

Yes, the record companies did produce some crap strictly to sell, but they also produced a lot of great classics. The new open market has led to the production of mostly crap. It's no wonder most people can't sell 1000 CDs.

 

 

I understand where you guys are comin from, but I think it's smarter to take the digital route these days. Let's say you do have the capacity to sell a thousand cds, if you go digital you would probably sell more because you're not bound to a physical format. Printing up a thousand cds is slowly becoming very outdated to me...

[BlueStrat]

 

I understand where you guys are comin from, but I think it's smarter to take the digital route these days. Let's say you do have the capacity to sell a thousand cds, if you go digital you would probably sell more because you're not bound to a physical format. Printing up a thousand cds is slowly becoming very outdated to me...

 

 

You know, that makes sense on the face of it, but the reality is, most of the CDs I sold have been because people at gigs could pick them up and look at them. If I relied on people watching me play and then going home and going online the next day to download some songs, I'd likely sell squat. If I sell just 5 CDs a month at 10 dollars per, that's 50 bucks. I'm not getting anywhere near 50 downloads a month, and to make that ten dollars each on a CD I'd have to sell nearly 20 downloads, since most online distributors only pay you 50-60 cents each. So sell 5 CDs for 50 bucks, or sell 100 downloads. I dont' know very many bands sellimg 100 downloads every month, but I know tons of them selling 5 CDs or more.

 

 

CDs are still a valuable medium for musicians because they allow you to take the music to the people and wave it under their noses, rather than them having to go find it later. That's why car dealers pressure you so hard to buy before you can leave the lot. They know once you leave, you'll likely talk yourself out of buying. Same with music for most of the general public.

[slight-return]

You know, that makes sense on the face of it, but the reality is, most of the CDs I sold have been because people at gigs could pick them up and look at them.

 

One thing I like about CDs...gifting, a lot of times I'll pick up the CD to give to someone else...someone who missed the show, or someone who I think might really lke the music

(I suppose, beyond first sale doctrine considerations, there's just the physicality in the gift too - similar to what you are talking about)

 

I don't mean it's a prime driver or anything, just an observation of my own and some peers' behavior

 

eh, take it for what it's worth...not much

[richardmac]

My experience has been that I've made a lot more money by selling CD's at gigs than I have selling downloads online or even CD's online. Here's another interesting stat - I've got three CD's, and each CD has sold better than the previous one at gigs, and worse than the previous one online. So gig sales are going up and online sales are going down for me. My first CD came out in 2004... I think it was easier to sell online in 2004 than it is now because there were comparatively less people doing it.

 

I am a huge believer in selling online, though, despite the lack of sales, because it's so damned cheap and convenient. Even if it's only 10% of the money I make as an artist, it's 10% that I would not otherwise have.

 

When I had my new CD made, I only ordered 100. This put the cost of each CD to around $3 for me, and I'm selling them for $10. It's still a decent profit, and I only need to sell 30 out of the 100 to get my money back. Which is good, because I'm also ending up giving away a lot for publicity. People look at having 1,000 CD's made because they're cheaper, like $1 each, but you have to be gigging a lot and playing to a lot of people to move 1,000 CD's. If you can't sell 1,000, there's no reason not to print up a smaller amount. Discmakers will make as few as 1, I believe. The more you order, the cheaper the price. For me, just under $300 for 100 copies was what I could afford, because I'm pretty broke.

[Pomerlaw]

 

CDs are still a valuable medium for musicians because they allow you to take the music to the people and wave it under their noses, rather than them having to go find it later. That's why car dealers pressure you so hard to buy before you can leave the lot. They know once you leave, you'll likely talk yourself out of buying. Same with music for most of the general public.

 

 

Good point. That may change when everyone will have a cell phone and wireless internet access. That's coming... Then maybe download cards will take over.

[Kramerguy]

I honestly think that this "filter" everyone (including myself) speaks of is part of the solution-

 

Also the medium- Someone will invent a new and improved music medium, something that offers superior fidelity, beyond what we even know today (I'm thinking something a step past 5.1); along with a new and improved delivery system that is secure, stable, and (eventually) affordable. Once you have those, filtering will take care of itself, and the industry will be (for the time being) back in a state of functionality.

 

Anyone can or will invent it, and then sell it to any one of the hundreds of companies or labels vying for position in the next generation of music. Who and what will it be? I don't know, but it's going to be frickin awesome.

[Pomerlaw]

 

Also the medium- Someone will invent a new and improved music medium, something that offers superior fidelity, beyond what we even know today (I'm thinking something a step past 5.1); along with a new and improved delivery system that is secure, stable, and (eventually) affordable. Once you have those, filtering will take care of itself, and the industry will be (for the time being) back in a state of functionality. Anyone can or will invent it, and then sell it to any one of the hundreds of companies or labels vying for position in the next generation of music. Who and what will it be? I don't know, but it's going to be frickin awesome.

 

 

Fidelity is not important for most people, especially young ones. MP3s are a major downgrade from CDs... But its the new standard. I don't see people accepting a new hassle just to get a new medium anytime soon.

[richardmac]

 

Fidelity is not important for most people, especially young ones. MP3s are a major downgrade from CDs... But its the new standard. I don't see people accepting a new hassle just to get a new medium anytime soon.

 

 

I agree with Pomerlaw. People stopped caring about fidelity when the iPod and the mp3 hit - two technologies, perfect storm. No one cares about better than CD quality. People are putting less into their home stereo systems on average and spending way less time listening to a home stereo system than before - more people listen to music via iPods and car stereos than anything else. I don't see that changing. People are too antsy to sit down and stare at nothing for 42 minutes. I love music and even I don't do it any more. I do, however, listen to music with headphones on some nights when I'm trying to get to sleep (my iPod Touch and my Shure in-ear headphones - love them.)

 

I'm totally not buying the idea of download cards. IMHO they will never hit big. They may work in certain situations, but they won't be a major player. The reason people buy CD's is instant gratification. A download card is nothing but giving someone your money and getting nothing immediate back. It's like sending a check in the mail or something. I can either give you ten bucks now, or I can go home and go to iTunes (or wherever) and put the money on my card. Why do I want to give you money now? The exception to me is the iTunes Gift Card, which I have given to people and people have given to me - that's like a gift certificate. A download card is like a gift certificate that you can only use on ONE thing. This concept has flopped so far and I don't see that changing.

 

The CD will continue to be sold and make money at live shows for a lot longer than some people here think.

[3shiftgtr]

I just tested this recently, and it worked. Been hearing about people giving away cd's. Read on Derek Sivers' site about someone who from the stage, asked everyone to grab a cd, had the table by the stage, and make a donation if they wish. My shtick was "We've got these fine cd's here and you guys were so awesome that I want everyone here to have one. Please do not leave without grabbing one. If you want to make a donation so that we can make another one, cool. We'd appreciate that. Anything you can pay. If not cool. Hey I spent all my money on beer too. Just don't leave without one."

 

Well, a gig where we sell anywhere from 3 to 10 (for $10ea), had 30 leave the club and just under $200 in the pot. Did it again in a smaller club and the results ratio was about the same. 22 left the club. Not making as much margin, but selling more units. I'm cool with that. Gonna continue until the magrin gets too skinny.

 

And download cards? Don't do too well with those. Most of my digital sales come from working the Internet, not gig sales. Although Pomerlaw is right, the younger the audience, the more apt they are to buy digital.

[richardmac]

 

I just tested this recently, and it worked. Been hearing about people giving away cd's. Read on Derek Sivers' site about someone who from the stage, asked everyone to grab a cd, had the table by the stage, and make a donation if they wish. My shtick was "We've got these fine cd's here and you guys were so awesome that I want everyone here to have one. Please do not leave without grabbing one. If you want to make a donation so that we can make another one, cool. We'd appreciate that. Anything you can pay. If not cool. Hey I spent all my money on beer too. Just don't leave without one." Well, a gig where we sell anywhere from 3 to 10 (for $10ea), had 30 leave the club and just under $200 in the pot. Did it again in a smaller club and the results ratio was about the same. 22 left the club. Not making as much margin, but selling more units. I'm cool with that. Gonna continue until the magrin gets too skinny..

 

 

Interesting! I will eventually end up trying that at least once to see what happens. Thanks for sharing your results.

[sabriel9v]

For me, just under $300 for 100 copies was what I could afford, because I'm pretty broke.

 

Richard, I FINALLY listened to your songs. You write some happy go lucky {censored}, but thats cool. It can move more than 100 units. Dude, if your image was a bit more edgy and dark, you could seriously sell a 1,000 cds

[Kramerguy]

Fidelity is not important for most people, especially young ones. MP3s are a major downgrade from CDs... But its the new standard. I don't see people accepting a new hassle just to get a new medium anytime soon.

 

Fidelity was only ONE of the 'perks' of the new medium- People will take it, if there's something else or a combination of things that makes this 'new medium' the next big thing.

 

It's not even a matter of "if", as someday, technology or someone's ingenuity will absolutely revolutionize the entire playing field. My post was basically a "hope" that it happens sooner than later, and a side effect of such revolution is security and filtering (quality).

[BlueStrat]

I just tested this recently, and it worked. Been hearing about people giving away cd's. Read on Derek Sivers' site about someone who from the stage, asked everyone to grab a cd, had the table by the stage, and make a donation if they wish. My shtick was "We've got these fine cd's here and you guys were so awesome that I want everyone here to have one. Please do not leave without grabbing one. If you want to make a donation so that we can make another one, cool. We'd appreciate that. Anything you can pay. If not cool. Hey I spent all my money on beer too. Just don't leave without one." Well, a gig where we sell anywhere from 3 to 10 (for $10ea), had 30 leave the club and just under $200 in the pot. Did it again in a smaller club and the results ratio was about the same. 22 left the club. Not making as much margin, but selling more units. I'm cool with that. Gonna continue until the magrin gets too skinny. And download cards? Don't do too well with those. Most of my digital sales come from working the Internet, not gig sales. Although Pomerlaw is right, the younger the audience, the more apt they are to buy digital.

 

Now,if we could just get the BMW dealers to take that approach....

[slight-return]

 

Also the medium- Someone will invent a new and improved music medium, something that offers superior fidelity, beyond what we even know today (I'm thinking something a step past 5.1)

 

 

I don't know that 5.1 is really a higher fidelity (precision) format, as opposed to an attempt to produce better imagining..but we've had number of attempts in this area, quad didn't make it -- we have 7.1

in a way, the number of channels is becoming just N , it's a question of how many channels you want to pump. Steve Martin had a bit about this in the 70s -- the googlophonic stereo.

As we move to a more abstracted model, it becomes more of an incremental mrch

but we already have other approaches with better imaging that predate 5.1 -- like binaural (big binaural fan myself, not too popular, but I think it's great)

 

 

along with a new and improved delivery system that is secure, stable, and (eventually) affordable.

 

I don't think stability has been a major problem for a while (at least in terms of dissuading users), some of the physical media (vinyl, magtape) have sensitivity, while CD hasn't proved to be indestructible I think it's decently robust. and, again, as we move to a more abstracted model, redundancy is an option, but this is already the case (and the redundancy itself can be one of the issues...defining the difference between authorized and unauthorized redundancy)

 

 

I guess with "secure" it's a question of "secure how" -- as in copy protection? The problem there is that it's an arms race, we have active agents (the black hats) working to defeat or circumvent that

and there can be some challenges with "static data" (data wherein the output is the source data itself) as opposed to "active data" (such as exes where the output isn't the source data)

 

Affordability is an interesting one as affordability can be one of the things that lower the barrier-to-entry (and create a filter) -- so as we more to more affordability, more movers are in the market.

In the past, we've formats married to a medium and the write equipment has been initially more expensive than the read equipment (vinyl, solidstate memory..Rom, PROM,EPROM,EEPROM..., CDs) - so there can be a lag between the producer and the consumer...though this is just a lag.

and while this could continue, we again run into the abstraction problem -- we can have parallel storage technologies and parallel formats for the same data

 

It's one very interesting thing that's been happen with information technology - it's not merely a linear (I don't mean in rate, I mean in the solution space) progression, but we can actually add dimensions which allow us to abstract things and get closer to pure information as opposed to information...in this format...on this medium....used in this way

[this has been one of the problematic legal questions in the past few years ... like RIAA v Diamond Multimedia -- is the device specifically, an "audio recording device" or something else, maybe more general]

 

In the last few decades we've seen things like object orientation (wherein data comes with its own means of using it in a self-contained package)

and hardware abstraction, better code portability, modularity, etc

Popularity of metadata and extensible formats

(hell, Meta- itself is a form of "up one level" in abstraction)

modular codecs

 

In some ways, it's not dissimilar when moving from just plates to movable type

[richardmac]

Richard, I FINALLY listened to your songs. You write some happy go lucky {censored}, but thats cool. It can move more than 100 units. Dude, if your image was a bit more edgy and dark, you could seriously sell a 1,000 cds

 

Is that all I need to do? Grow my hair longer and not smile in pictures? Shoot, I can do that! LOL! No, I understand what you're saying. I probably could write darker songs and be more depressing and it'd be more marketable. But I have to do what I want to do, or it won't be fun any more. Even though I write nerdy 44 year old dad music... I AM a nerdy 44 year old dad, after all...

[sabriel9v]

Is that all I need to do? Grow my hair longer and not smile in pictures? Shoot, I can do that! LOL! No, I understand what you're saying. I probably could write darker songs and be more depressing and it'd be more marketable. But I have to do what I want to do, or it won't be fun any more. Even though I write nerdy 44 year old dad music... I AM a nerdy 44 year old dad, after all...

 

No, you don't even have to change your music man. Get a haircut, throw on a leather jacket and you've just sold 300 more units

 

btw I say all of this jest, but I think it could work for you.

[richardmac]

No, you don't even have to change your music man. Get a haircut, throw on a leather jacket and you've just sold 300 more units btw I say all of this jest, but I think it could work for you.

 

You sure? Here's what that looks like.

[slight-return]

Hey, if it worked for Garth Brooks' alter ego then it could...

 

oh, wait

[sabriel9v]

You sure? Here's what that looks like .

 

...get your wife to dress you up before shows lol

[RobRoy]

 

Yep. That's why I shut my own band down in 2004 (I recently restarted it with some different goals). There is a blues legend named Lucky Peterson who I was lucky enough (no pun intended) to get to play with for two nights. We were sitting around after the second night and he told me that if I was going to 'make it' in music, I had to hit the road. He said he was on the road about 280-300 days a year. And I thought to myself, here's a guy who's made about 8 albums, been on national television, has a record deal just about every big time blues legend alive, and is a phenomenal singer, keyboard player and guitar player, yet her he is, driving around the country in an 8 year old minivan pulling a trailer playing the same clubs I am (albeit fort a bit more money) with no end in sight. And that's when it hit me: traveling is the job . Yes, you have to sell merch, play well, and promote, but if you aren't out beating the highway, you won't make it. Ironically, if you do hit the road, you won't make much, either, unless you're in the upper echelon of your genre. I'll post this vid just to show you how amazing this guy is, and to make the point that if it's like this for guys like him, what chance do we mere mortals have, really? Not saying it isn't possible, but I think most of us go into it not fully realizing what a truly uphill journey it really is. Then again, maybe if we did, none of us would undertake it at all!

 

My personal opinion is that the music industry is returning to its "pre-recording-industry" paradigm for the musicians, at least.

 

I started playing Bass back in 1998 at 44 years of age. As a hobby I like to watch a lot of local bands at local clubs for a set or so. My take is that being in a rock/pop/blues band these days is the 21st century equivalent of being on a softball team in the late 20th century. If you expect to make money at it, your in it for the wrong reason, and should spend more time buying lotto tickets.

 

That said, the core problem is that most bands aren't that good, and the "originals" bands are usually worse.

 

None of this is really all that new, either. How many "good" musicicans from the last 60 years are rolling in dough now or were at the time of their death?

 

It's a job. And if you are REALLY GOOD and have great showmanship to boot and are willing to take risks investing in lights, etc., and are willing to spend your life on the road, you could break a deep five figures per band member. But I can do much better working in a cubicle farm, being there for my wife and kids and enjoying even MORE income.

 

It's more fun as a hobby.