Members fingerpicker Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 Zero Horses mentioned something- coming up with something unique. I think thats key in not just propmotion, but in you actual music. How many people do you know that can do a Tommy Emmanuel, or Leo Kottke, or John Prine show? ( and I mean their OWN original music?) They are unique. Not going to be on the radio much if at all but they will sell lots of CDs to their loyal fanbase, and will draw at their shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I think there is some merit in what espec10001 is saying in that one typically does need to make some sacrifice in their craft in order to market themselves effectively. Either the business end of your craft takes your time or you even write music that you are not fully invested in such as jingles (although I would add that I believe that writing jingles makes you a tradesman and there is nothing wrong with that). This is a decision that all artists find themselves faced with at some point. To sell or not to sell. There is, IMO, a strong argument to keep your passion as your hobby and it sounds to me like espec10001 would like to do just that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and it enables one to remain a purist. So, rock on man. I understand what he was saying, but I think it's silly and naive to think you can separate the promotion of artists from the promotion of their music. Yes, in a perfect world, songs would stand on their own merit and throngs would be so enthralled with the music apart from the artists that they would swarm concerts to hear the songs performed with the bands behind a curtain. But that isn't the real world. The fact is, artist promotion starts at the lowest level and continues through the highest. Every local band just starting out has to promote themselves just to get heard. What happens when a band just posts their music on the internet with no other info, or just sends a CD to a radio station or promoter with nothing else? I think we all know the answer to that. Music stimulates emotional responses in people that no other art form does, with the exception of maybe film. Because of that emotional connection someone may feel to a song or an acting performance, it is natural for the listener/viewer to want to find out about the writer/actor. They feel a connection to that person and want to learn more about them, to see if any other common connections exist. It is why bands put up posters of themselves, not their song lists, when they advertise. It's why media interviews musicians and actors. It's why the best websites feature lots of photos, bios, blogs and such, going way beyond the mere presentation of music. Does it go overboard? Sure it does. It is the nature of the system in which we live for the personalities to often overshadow the product. There reaches a point when more people are concerned about how many kids Madonna adopts, or Amy Winehouse's latest cocaine binge, rather than any new records they may be putting out. But so what? Most of the people into the tabloid aspect of a performer's life aren't real fans of the music anyway. But the system that sensationalizes artists is the same system that makes sure the music still gets heard by millions, is it not? To think that music will become wildly popular without regard to the personalities behind it is just wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I say come up with something unique. I myself am working on a series of unique posters that people can collect. THAT is a good idea. Something that can appeal on more than one level. A cool looking poster or art print, priced very reasonably, might sell well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 11, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I understand what he was saying, but I think it's silly and naive to think you can separate the promotion of artists from the promotion of their music. Yes, in a perfect world, songs would stand on their own merit and throngs would be so enthralled with the music apart from the artists that they would swarm concerts to hear the songs performed with the bands behind a curtain. But that isn't the real world. The fact is, artist promotion starts at the lowest level and continues through the highest. Every local band just starting out has to promote themselves just to get heard. What happens when a band just posts their music on the internet with no other info, or just sends a CD to a radio station or promoter with nothing else? I think we all know the answer to that. Music stimulates emotional responses in people that no other art form does, with the exception of maybe film. Because of that emotional connection someone may feel to a song or an acting performance, it is natural for the listener/viewer to want to find out about the writer/actor. They feel a connection to that person and want to learn more about them, to see if any other common connections exist. It is why bands put up posters of themselves, not their song lists, when they advertise. It's why media interviews musicians and actors. It's why the best websites feature lots of photos, bios, blogs and such, going way beyond the mere presentation of music. Does it go overboard? Sure it does. It is the nature of the system in which we live for the personalities to often overshadow the product. There reaches a point when more people are concerned about how many kids Madonna adopts, or Amy Winehouse's latest cocaine binge, rather than any new records they may be putting out. But so what? Most of the people into the tabloid aspect of a performer's life aren't real fans of the music anyway. But the system that sensationalizes artists is the same system that makes sure the music still gets heard by millions, is it not? To think that music will become wildly popular without regard to the personalities behind it is just wishful thinking. Well said. Artist promotion starts at the lowest level - it sure does. Most of us suck at promotion, but we learn that even clumsy attempts at it can end up getting you gigs. And the more you promote yourself, the more opportunities you get to gain an audience. In some ways, promotion at the lowest level is fun. I have a new CD out that's folk/rock and many of the songs are stories. So I contacted the local library and asked if I could perform a free concert, and sign and sell CD's afterwards. They were delighted with the idea. They're going to do promotion for it. I'll probably end up playing for 50 people and selling a few CD's, so financially it won't be very rewarding, but it will be fun and it's at the level where I am at right now. The folks who don't want to promote themselves are welcome to sit at home on their couch and do nothing. That's totally up to them. But to sit on your couch at home and ignore the Internet and then tell us that we're prostitutes... whatever. It's easy to cast stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members espec10001 Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well said. Artist promotion starts at the lowest level - it sure does. Most of us suck at promotion, but we learn that even clumsy attempts at it can end up getting you gigs. And the more you promote yourself, the more opportunities you get to gain an audience. In some ways, promotion at the lowest level is fun. I have a new CD out that's folk/rock and many of the songs are stories. So I contacted the local library and asked if I could perform a free concert, and sign and sell CD's afterwards. They were delighted with the idea. They're going to do promotion for it. I'll probably end up playing for 50 people and selling a few CD's, so financially it won't be very rewarding, but it will be fun and it's at the level where I am at right now. The folks who don't want to promote themselves are welcome to sit at home on their couch and do nothing. That's totally up to them. But to sit on your couch at home and ignore the Internet and then tell us that we're prostitutes... whatever. It's easy to cast stones. I'm talking from the perspective of a potential customer. I'm not paying for you, I'm not paying for your banter, I'm not paying for your t-shirts or your merchandise. I'm not paying for your stories or your experiences. I want to hear music that I would be willing to part money for. Make me dance, make me cry, make me feel happy, make me remember fond times of my past, give me hope for the future. You want to get money from me? Then give me what I want. I'm your customer. I'm the average music fan who doesn't have a lot of spare money to part with. I'm the average music fan who craves music that gives me something. I'm the average music fan who wants music that speaks to me, that helps me through hard times, that reminds me that everything is going to be alright. Why am I as a potential customer going to pay for something that I can get free on the internet? Sounds to me that if the person who created the music just throws it out there for free doesn't really put much value on it, so why should I? That is why in an economy like this, you got a lotta nerve asking people like me for money unless you are able to lift my spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I'm talking from the perspective of a potential customer. I'm not paying for you, I'm not paying for your banter, I'm not paying for your t-shirts or your merchandise. I'm not paying for your stories or your experiences. I want to hear music that I would be willing to part money for. Make me dance, make me cry, make me feel happy, make me remember fond times of my past, give me hope for the future. You want to get money from me? Then give me what I want. I'm your customer. I'm the average music fan who doesn't have a lot of spare money to part with. I'm the average music fan who craves music that gives me something. I'm the average music fan who wants music that speaks to me, that helps me through hard times, that reminds me that everything is going to be alright. Why am I as a potential customer going to pay for something that I can get free on the internet? Sounds to me that if the person who created the music just throws it out there for free doesn't really put much value on it, so why should I? That is why in an economy like this, you got a lotta nerve asking people like me for money unless you are able to lift my spirits. You sound confused. You say you aren't paying for the artist, the schwag,or the personal banter. Ok, got it. Yet you also ask why you should pay for something you can get free on the internet. Last I checked, that would be music, without anything else attached to it. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I dunno...I've been in money makers and non money makers. I found that the work involved was the same. Get people to hear you by any means necessary. Sell as much crap as you can to make as much money as you can, and keep the machine going. And in between all of that, play the f*ck out of your instrument and write your ass off. The model has had the same elements over the years, just different percentages. And it will change again in the future. And I have found that the crappier the music, the bigger the gig. So one day it hits me, there is a crapload of stuff that is really job-like that you gotta do to make something that large amounts of people will buy. By job-like, I mean sell out. I could make a lot more money selling my soul and hustling insurance than I could selling my soul and playing crap. I'd rather teach and play what I want, and not have to sell my soul and be dictated to. Giving up my musical freedom and artistic integrity to make money does not appeal to me anymore. So...I make art I adore first. Then I do what I can to sell it. Everything I can. I actually enjoy that. And I refuse to work with the soulless jackasses that have shiested me along the way. If that means turning down a high profile gig cuz the promoter is a f*ckwit, so be it. If it means not taking an artist gig playing crud, oh well. And I have passed on both. If I were ever go on the road with an artist again, it will be because I believe in that artists music as I would my own. And until people start caring MORE about "making art" than they do about "making it", they'll will have to do what they're told. They will be reaching for a brass ring that doesn't really exist anymore. People put stuff on Youtube to be discovered. How about putting it up there to SHARE? How about making music JUST cuz you love your music, not to be a rock star. All my projects make money. Not Sting money, just decent money. And the more musicians that do that, the less power the sheisters and a**holes will have over you. Then, the money making model isn't such a confusing pain in the butt. It becomes something you use to FIND OUT what works for your project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 You sound confused. You say you aren't paying for the artist, the schwag,or the personal banter. Ok, got it. Yet you also ask why you should pay for something you can get free on the internet. Last I checked, that would be music, without anything else attached to it. WTF? I'm confused also. All I hear is a lot of arrogance and insults. Nothing productive. So he thinks we should market just the music, and not the person. What's the best way to do that online? Oh, I forgot - he doesn't put his music online. Clearly he is a good source of career advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 And until people start caring MORE about "making art" than they do about "making it", they'll will have to do what they're told. They will be reaching for a brass ring that doesn't really exist anymore. People put stuff on Youtube to be discovered. How about putting it up there to SHARE? How about making music JUST cuz you love your music, not to be a rock star. All my projects make money. Not Sting money, just decent money. And the more musicians that do that, the less power the sheisters and a**holes will have over you. Then, the money making model isn't such a confusing pain in the butt. It becomes something you use to FIND OUT what works for your project. Yeah, I agree. Make music because you love it. And there's nothing wrong with trying to earn money from it. The brass ring is gone, you are right. There is a very small amount of money in it now. But I think it's still worth getting money for. Guitar strings cost money. There are a whole lot of companies out there right now making money off of people still trying to grab the brass ring, as you say, and I agree, avoiding these companies is a very good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 I'll never quit making music. But whether I'll give it away just to get it heard or not is another matter. Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Again for the singer songwriter you are totally off. You dont market just the song, you market the SONGWRITER and the STORY behind the song. Im not on this forum alot. Its clear to me that there are a percentage of people here who post on this forum that are not in the music business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bcolburn Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 I find this to be such an interesting thread from start to finish. I, like fingerpicker and richardmac, run the singer / songwriter route. I also live close to NY, an area that has more singer / songwriters than people to watch them (maybe not exactly, but you get the idea). With that being said, promoting is a tough road - you're one in a million (literally) being a singer / songwriter -- so what do you have to offer that someone may enjoy. Who is your audience? For me, a lot of my songs are personal reflections, and I have learned that people my age and older seem to be my target demographic (and I am aware this may not be the same for others on here). So I avoid the bars and clubs (even on acoustic open mic nights) -- I have much better luck in coffeehouses, town events, festivals, and street fairs. It took me a while to come to this realization, and I am aware every artist is different. I love writing, recording, and sharing it with others. I love when someone connects with something I wrote. One sincere email from someone who found "something" in my song, means more to me then 10,000 "you rock!" comments or compliments. It's funny this topic came up, because I am finishing up a new CD, and I got an email regarding some of my new tunes, that was along the lines of "I don't know you personally, but these songs give me an idea of who you are" -- I couldn't ask for a better compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Brian-I am in the process of recording my second CD, and we share a like song title. "Brand New Day"... Caught my eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 No matter what is going on in the many facets of the music buisness there is one inescapable truism.... The currency is the song. If your songs are mediocre , then you might get some attention.. 15 minutes and such .....( of course the marketing machine of the majors used to be able to cram some tripe into sales , but those days are gone ) But ,If a song can communicate emotion to others then there should be rewards that go to the creator. The big problem is that the main way to reward the creator, songwriter is royalties on the sale of the songs .. That used to be on physical sales of products like CD's . I think the OP ask an incredibly relevent question. Show me the money. Don't think that people can write timeless classics in there spare time . It takes just as much dedication and devotion to craft as becoming a virtuoso on an instrument . We need to figure out how to pay those people who excell , and , it needs to be a meritocracy , not a media driven cult of personality. We'll see , but if the human race does'nt care about art:cry: then it'll be formualic, low effort zero craft drivell for the masses ; maybe that's all the "I want it FREE " mob deserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Again for the singer songwriter you are totally off. You dont market just the song, you market the SONGWRITER and the STORY behind the song. Absolutely true. A guy and a guitar is ho hum. A guy who traveled around the US in a beat up old ford and wrote songs about people he met on the road... that is WAY more interesting. Maybe that's what I need to do, actually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 I find this to be such an interesting thread from start to finish. I, like fingerpicker and richardmac, run the singer / songwriter route. I also live close to NY, an area that has more singer / songwriters than people to watch them (maybe not exactly, but you get the idea). With that being said, promoting is a tough road - you're one in a million (literally) being a singer / songwriter -- so what do you have to offer that someone may enjoy. Who is your audience? For me, a lot of my songs are personal reflections, and I have learned that people my age and older seem to be my target demographic (and I am aware this may not be the same for others on here). So I avoid the bars and clubs (even on acoustic open mic nights) -- I have much better luck in coffeehouses, town events, festivals, and street fairs. It took me a while to come to this realization, and I am aware every artist is different. I love writing, recording, and sharing it with others. I love when someone connects with something I wrote. One sincere email from someone who found "something" in my song, means more to me then 10,000 "you rock!" comments or compliments. It's funny this topic came up, because I am finishing up a new CD, and I got an email regarding some of my new tunes, that was along the lines of "I don't know you personally, but these songs give me an idea of who you are" -- I couldn't ask for a better compliment. Brian, we are in a very very similar position. It's good to know that there are other people out there doing the same thing and facing the same challenges. Your music sounds great, by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZERO HEROES Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 BTW, I've yet to have any bands take me up on my advertising offer. I'm paying bands to let me put ads on their vans and trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bcolburn Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 Brian, we are in a very very similar position. It's good to know that there are other people out there doing the same thing and facing the same challenges. Your music sounds great, by the way! Thanks alot Richard, likewise as well! I see from your site that you were originally from NY, if you're ever up here -- look me up and we'll set up a gig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 BTW, I've yet to have any bands take me up on my advertising offer. I'm paying bands to let me put ads on their vans and trailer. I'd be happy to, if you buy me a trailer or van Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pjrake Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd be happy to, if you buy me a trailer or van +1 -PJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sabriel9v Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 I spent this past week home in bed with a bad case of shingles (still hurts like hell) and got a chance to see the live stream from many sessions at the Future of Music Policy Summit. There was some really good stuff. The quotes from the summit are making their way around the web now, and I saw this interesting quote and wanted to get people's take on it:" "Old model: get signed or get lost. New model: fan relationships create a value pipeline...(The new artist) revenue pie chart: gigs 35 %, merch 17 %, digital sales 11 %, cds 6 %, royalties 9 %." - Jed Carlson, ReverbNation"I suspect he's talking about bands that can tour a bit. What do you folks think about this quote? I went to the Future of Music Policy site and they had some great power points and pdfs about the new music biz model. Do you know where I can listen to some of the seminars in their entirety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZERO HEROES Posted October 13, 2009 Members Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'd be happy to, if you buy me a trailer or van Alright, will this do? It's a little used. http://www.collectlittlecars.com/clc/html/images/van%20crop.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted October 14, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2009 I went to the Future of Music Policy site and they had some great power points and pdfs about the new music biz model. Do you know where I can listen to some of the seminars in their entirety? No, but I wish I did. I heard some of the sessions streamed live and they were really cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members espec10001 Posted October 14, 2009 Members Share Posted October 14, 2009 Absolutely true. A guy and a guitar is ho hum. A guy who traveled around the US in a beat up old ford and wrote songs about people he met on the road... that is WAY more interesting. Maybe that's what I need to do, actually... I'm glad I don't feel the need to impress people with some made up story or tell them about my life. I could get up there and say "Well, I wrote this song while in a space ship while traveling to Mars and I was lonely." WHO CARES? The reality is I'm a music fan as well and I sit down and I write what I think sounds good, thats it! If the music doesn't move people, then I got work to do to make better music! I don't need to travel the world, kill somebody, have sex with 1000 women, perform armed robbery, snort up all of Columbia's export, or work on a farm! All you need is a little imagination. A great guitar player and a great songwriter is not ho-hum. If the music gets people feeling good or moving or they can connect, that's all that matters. If the performer is having fun playing it and dancing to it, why in the world does it matter what he does in his private time? Many modern musicians share as much of the blame for the sad state of affairs in the music world just as much as labels do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnMCA72 Posted October 14, 2009 Members Share Posted October 14, 2009 A musician is probably the worst possible indicator of what a "true music fan" really is. Just like an insider in any field, we know "too much". JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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