Members Hoddy Posted May 12, 2007 Members Share Posted May 12, 2007 Information and History Most of the best Japanese replicas were built between 1978 and 1995 in the Fugi-gen Gakki factory by Japanese luthiers, these include the "lawsuit" guitars and forced Fender and Gibson to license this factory to produce their branded products in Japan. In many cases, these Japanese Fenders and Gibsons are of higher build quality, finish and tone than the US made versions.Orville by Gibson, Orville, Greco and Burny were all mainly produced by Fugi-gen Gakki. Orville by Gibson Orville by Gibson were the Japanese manufactured Gibson Les Paul, fully approved and authorised by Gibson USA. The Japanese made guitar was actually a closer copy of the 1959 LP than the Gibson USA guitar being produced at that time. The Japanese models usually had a long tenon like the 1959 LP's, the US Standard version did not. The vast majority of ObG's were made at the Fuji-gen factory, The Orville by Gibson Les Paul Reissue series (LPR) 1993-1994, were the top of the range Japanese produced Gibsons, they all have stock Gibson USA electrics and pickups, nitrocellulose laquer finishes, blank truss rod covers and fret edge binding, and were only made from 1993 to early 1995, they also tend to have the fattest necks of all the ObG's. These are rare, and the ObG Reissue flametops are even rarer. The Orville by Gibson Les Paul Standard series (LPS) 1988-1994, do not have fret edge binding and have "Standard" on the truss rod cover,..but are otherwise identical to the ObG reissues. There are some ObG LPS models which were produced in very limited numbers, like the 54 LP (stoptail and P90's), and some Limited Edition runs of (usually) 50 guitars like the LP TV Yellow Junior. There were also a number of limited run series made for large Japanese guitar shops, such as Yamano, these can be spotted by the lack of a pickguard hole as they were ordered with the pickguards off, and are usually but not always, solid flame tops, and one very limited run features solid Flametops, and a one piece back.The Limited Edition Guitars usually came with their own hardcase, but all other ObG's were sold with a ObG gigbag, and so as a result ObG Original Hardcases are very rare. Most of the ObG flametops are laminate, but there are some solid flametop guitars, these are extremely rare.Most ObG flametops are usually quite understated, and any ObG with a highly flamed or quilted top (the LPQ models) are unusual, and normally veneer. There were no Orville by Gibson Photo-flame tops.Orville by Gibson's used the premium wood available to the luthiers. Orville's are essentially the same guitars, but with Japanese electrics and Orville P.A.F type pickups, (which are very nice) they are finished in poly not nitro, some Orvilles were issued with Photo-flametops, and K serial numbers were assembled either in Korea, or in a different factory to Fuji-gen. (the actual origin of K serial Orvilles are not completely established) Most Orville by Gibson and Orville guitars have the long neck tenon which is faithful to the "holy grail" 1959 Gibson Les Paul (which is what all these guitars were trying to replicate). This feature is only available on the current Gibson Historic reissue series and is considered to be a superior method of neck/body joint giving better sustain and overall tone.From early in 1995, Orville by Gibson was discontinued, and in 1998 Orvilles were rebranded as Epiphone by Gibson (Japan).These were only produced for 2 years up to 2000, the Japanese Epiphone's are really Orville's with a different headstock inlay.There were no replacements for the Orville by Gibson models, and as such these are becoming very sought after. The Greco Super Real Series EGF. 1980 and 1981 only. Model EGF-850, EGF-1000, EGF-1200, all feature veneer flametops, fret binding and nitro finish, with a long tenon, the necks on these are of the fatter 59 kind. As these were only produced for 2 years they are rare.The rarest are the EGF-1200, the highest normal production model, and the ''built to order'' EGF-1800, which has a solid flametop, both of these models feature the fabled 'DRY Z' pickups, and are amongst the best regarded of all LP replicas. The Greco Super Reals have the fattest neck of all the LP replica's. Greco re-issued the Super Real series in 1988 and 1989 for a few High End Semi-Acoustic models only. Greco Mint Collection. 1982-1991Model EG59-85 upward, have Nitro finishes and some limited edition series, (very rare) have fret edge binding, with high quality electrics and Greco P.A.F type pickups (apparantly DiMarzio USA made..). The EG59-100 and EG58-120 have DRY pickups and 50's style necks, above the EG58-120's also have fret binding and are the equal of the high end EGF-1000 and 1200 Super Real's in every way.The later years, 86-91 the high end models have Seymour Duncan pickups as stock. From 1982 to 1990 Greco mint collection have an open O in Greco, In 1991 Greco returned to the closed O on the mint collection models. All these guitars feature a long neck tenon, currently only available in the Gibson Historic Series. Burny Some Burny Super Grade models follow the same construction techniques as the above, some do not have the long tenon, but up to and including the FLG/RLG-90 model, all have poly finishes, (apart from FLG's from 1980/81 ) and the higher spec models have fret binding. The rarest and best models are the 1980/81 FLG's, 90/150/240, they all have 1 piece backs and flamed tops, the 90 being a veneer and the higher models solid, they all have a nitro finish, and a stamped ser no on the headstock back. The most common are the early plaintops and post '81 RLG-50's and 90's, the 50's are plaintop and the 90's are veneer flametop, these have multi piece backs and poly finishes. The post '81 RLG-120's and RLG-150's are much rarer, they all have nitro finishes, and have highly flamed solid tops, and are highly sought after. For more Burny info in depth go here Early Tokai 1978-1982 The highly regarded,(and rare)Tokai "Les Paul Reborn" was only produced for one full year (1978/9) before Tokai were forced to change the name to Reborn, then Reborn old (very rare 6 months production only..), then in 1980, Love Rock.The Love Rocks from 1980-1981 are made to exactly the same specs as the Les Paul Reborn and Reborn Old, but the latter have more rarity value. After 1982 the tokai production numbers and variety of models increased dramatically, and the higher model numbers began to appear with 2 piece backs, I only stock pre 1982 LS-80/100/120/150/200 as all these have the correct headstock angle, nitro finishes, and one piece backs.The Tokai's were produced elsewhere in Japan, but are of a similar quality to the Fugi-gen guitars. For lots more info on Tokai guitars, visit http://www.tokairegistry.com/ and http://www.flyingvintage.com/gcmag/reborn.html Navigator 1980-1982 Probably the rarest and least well known of the Japanese Replica's, which is surprising as these are amongst the highest quality guitars from this period, and the most historically accurate to the original 59 LP. All models, both plain and flamed, have solid tops, long tenon, one piece backs and fret binding. In every guitar I have seen, the wood used is lightweight Honduran mahogony for the body, and Brazillian rosewood for the fretboards. Unusually for this period, there seem to be only a few models, basically a plaintop, a flametop, and a goldtop with P-90's for the LP's and a 335 model. Its important to realise that these were all made when Navigator was a small, independent company, the involvement with Edwards/ESP was in its infancy, ESP were only supplying some pickups to Navigator, Edwards/ESP eventually bought the company in around 1984, and the reason that Edwards today brands its highest models "Navigator" is due to the fact that, in Japan, the name is a watchword for the highest quality, because of the superior nature of these early, pre Edwards models. Fender JV 1982-1984 Produced for only 2 years from 1982 to early 1984, these were the domestic Japanese version, only for sale in Japan, the Squire JV were the cheaper export models. The Fender JV have Fender hardware and Pickups and nitro finish on the ST-85 and ST-115 strat models, and the TL52-95 tele. The ST-115 also has a steel trem block. For more info on Fender JV series Guitars see: http://www.squierjv.info/domesticjv.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted May 12, 2007 Members Share Posted May 12, 2007 Good stuff!Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hoddy Posted May 13, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Good stuff!Thanks! The author really knows his stuff about MIJ guitars...check out some of the stuff he has for sale! http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members magentaplacenta Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 He's a regular poster (generalunrest) over on the Tokai Forum, http://www.tokaiforum.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lexvandoef Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Ah you found that site. He's got some great Les Pauls on it, I used to drool when I looked there, but know I just look at my wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 what I`d like to know is...where does this and all the other info thats all over the web come from? Some of it is consistant with stuff in my Japanese books on the subject but for one example that contradicts those books there are pics in Japan Vintage volume 5 on pages 96 and 97 of a 1976 ESP/Navigator JANGO with ESP inlaid on the fretboard...and I`ve seen other articles on the company that just don`t coincide with what he says. Most of what I read on line about the history of these guitars doesn`t come from Japanese. Does this guy know more than me on MIJs...yes. Does he have more experience with then than me...yes. But it would just be nice if just a few of the experts could agree on the data they come up with. There are conflicting stories all over the place on this topic and sometimes info doesn`t jive with what I hear from shop staff over here. It`s great that folks take the time to present opinions but I`m just not inclined to swallow everything I read on line about MIJs especially since a lot of what was made in the golden years was never exported. I often see models in this country that I never knew existed. I am always ready to learn more and read up as much as I can but when guys start believing their opinions are definitive, well I question that ...guess I`m a skeptic by nature.Interesting read but I`ve seen it before `cause it`s been posted a lot on other sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phishmonkey Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 The author really knows his stuff about MIJ guitars...check out some of the stuff he has for sale!http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/ Very nice collection, but why anyone would pay $2800 for a Tokai is beyond me. You could get a new navigator for less than that or save a little more and get a new historic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Very nice collection, but why anyone would pay $2800 for a Tokai is beyond me. You could get a new navigator for less than that or save a little more and get a new historic. There was some talk on the LP forum about the Tokai LS-120. It's said to be closer to a real 59 LP than many real 59 LP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members harold heckuba Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 I would venture a guess that a Gibson historian such as George Gruhn would disagree strongly with the authors statement about the Japanese versions being better than US models from 78-95. 78 and 79 possibly but from then on probably more opinion than fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phishmonkey Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 There was some talk on the LP forum about the Tokai LS-120. It's said to be closer to a real 59 LP than many real 59 LP's. Yeah, but you could get the same level of authenticity in a brand new navigator for less money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GarysBlues Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Its closer to a 59 than a REAL 59? Think about what were saying here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kherman Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Its closer to a 59 than a REAL 59? Think about what were saying here now. I think he's refering to the R9.Meaning it's closer than a real Gibson R9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ilovemystrat Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Very nice collection, but why anyone would pay $2800 for a Tokai is beyond me. You could get a new navigator for less than that or save a little more and get a new historic. exactly. I ilve in Tokyo, and I go and check out these copies every weekend. They are damn badass but are so damn expensive (for being used and old). If i made double what i made monthly i'd be okayy with it. I hear like 5 years agoo there were about $300 instead of over a 1000. and a lot of them pickups suck. and no tokai strat i've ever played has played better than my fender japan strat. very very close (perhaps if they were new) but no cigar. i do see a bunch of old japanese blues players use the old grecos/burnys over gibsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 right...5 years ago things were much more affordable, it`s gettin` out of hand...still, guys wanna pay thousands for those let em. My FJ rosewood tele has pretty much doubled in value since?I got it in a local shop a few years ago. The 1980 Aria TS-800 I got last week had been hanging in the shop for two years but at 80,ooo yen nobody wanted it up here...last Thursday they lowered the price to less than half that and I bought it...not nearly as many people looking for the old MIJs up here. They don`t come around as often as they do in Tokyo but then again, they go for a lot less when they do show up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ilovemystrat Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 right...5 years ago things were much more affordable, it`s gettin` out of hand...still, guys wanna pay thousands for those let em. My FJ rosewood tele has pretty much doubled in value since?I got it in a local shop a few years ago. The 1980 Aria TS-800 I got last week had been hanging in the shop for two years but at 80,ooo yen nobody wanted it up here...last Thursday they lowered the price to less than half that and I bought it...not nearly as many people looking for the old MIJs up here. They don`t come around as often as they do in Tokyo but then again, they go for a lot less when they do show up. a good percentage (proably about 10 or more) of the guitars in used guitar shops are MIJ but mostly the crap ppl don't want good stuff disappears at the end of the day or week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ilovemystrat Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 right...5 years ago things were much more affordable, it`s gettin` out of hand...still, guys wanna pay thousands for those let em. My FJ rosewood tele has pretty much doubled in value since?I got it in a local shop a few years ago. The 1980 Aria TS-800 I got last week had been hanging in the shop for two years but at 80,ooo yen nobody wanted it up here...last Thursday they lowered the price to less than half that and I bought it...not nearly as many people looking for the old MIJs up here. They don`t come around as often as they do in Tokyo but then again, they go for a lot less when they do show up. a good percentage (proably about 10 or more) of the guitars in used guitar shops are MIJ but mostly the crap ppl don't want good stuff disappears at the end of the day or week. those tokais (i have yet to play a reborn, its a day trip to go play one) les pauls aren't exactly like a gibson, not as heavy and the pickups don't have that gibson sound to em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GuitArtMan Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 I'm very surprised that most of them, if not all, had nitrocelulose finishes. To the best of my knowledge the Ibanez's and Yamaha's of the same era did not. Only the high end Tokais now are listed as having nitro finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orzklegbok Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Very nice collection, but why anyone would pay $2800 for a Tokai is beyond me. You could get a new navigator for less than that or save a little more and get a new historic. Where does the uninitiated US webster go to see these "Navigator" guitars? ...cuz now I'm very curious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted May 13, 2007 Members Share Posted May 13, 2007 Where does the uninitiated US webster go to see these "Navigator" guitars? ...cuz now I'm very curious! http://www.espguitars.co.jp/navigator/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zenbu Posted May 14, 2007 Members Share Posted May 14, 2007 I would venture a guess that a Gibson historian such as George Gruhn would disagree strongly with the authors statement about the Japanese versions being better than US models from 78-95. 78 and 79 possibly but from then on probably more opinion than fact. remember...the guy sells those guitars. But I agree...it`s opinion...granted it`s based on a lot of guitars that have passed through his hands so odds are he`s had some gems but sweeping statements don`t mean much to me especailly since I`ve left more than a couple of less than stellar MIJs from the golder era on shop flooors because even for a few hunderd dollars I thought they weren`t worth it. On the other hand the ones I did take home I couldn`t be happier with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soliloquy Posted September 10, 2007 Members Share Posted September 10, 2007 i dont have time to read all that..but making this post for easy searching... looking into buying either a greco, agile, tokai or burny(yes, i know of edwards...but i dont really wanna deal with the japanese market right now...) this guitar store near my place is run by this guy who owns this REALLY nice sun burst tokai guitar. not really a fan of sunbursts, but that just looked amazing...so lets see what i can find... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted September 10, 2007 Members Share Posted September 10, 2007 this is my 89 Orville by Gibson standard. I won't claim to be an expert (this is my second guitar) but I did do quite a bit of research when I saw it pop up for sale and I'm not a novice when it comes to recognizing quality instruments. (I've played drums for almost 20 years). From that research, and various posts here and else where I gathered that gibson's USA quality around that time was, and still is, somewhat suspect. Fit and Finish multiple ply bodies, short neck tenons, etc. Well my orville has long neck tenon, solid mahoghany, nitro finish; like said above, built to old USA standards rather than current. But more than that I liked the idea of this guitar. These Japanese factories were building these for gibson to counter the lawsuit guitars, so I'm betting these builders had something to prove to the public and to gibson management. Not to mention simple japanese mentality about pride in work and bringing no shame to the company. Hell they will kill themselves if they bring shame to their companies. I could have afforded a real US standard but I honestly think this is probably a better guitar. And I paid $725 bucks for it so I think I got a pretty good deal even if its more than a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 59humbucker Posted September 10, 2007 Members Share Posted September 10, 2007 is the Fugi-gen factory mentioned the same place that makes Ibanez now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soliloquy Posted September 10, 2007 Members Share Posted September 10, 2007 / i thought ibanez were being made in the cort factory? btw, can someone tell me more about ESP guitars, and their baby company LTDs? from what i know, esps have a habbit of dangling their feet in other companies products, and get sued often, but they have a way around it. like they got sued by jackson. gibson, and a few other companies... but idk, i'd like to know more about their EC guitars..same goes for LTDs my question is ltds vs. edwards. sure, ltds are more targeted for metal guitarists, while edwards can/are more vintage stuff...yet quality wise(ltd 1000 series), can ltd compare up to edwards? i'm looking at those ltd ec 1000(the ones in red quilt, or snow white) with 24 frets, and emgs. some of the online specs say they have ebony fret board, but if you look at those pictures, you can easily tell that its rosewood, or if it is ebony, then it was forced to drown in some rubbing alcohol for a week or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.