Paypal / Transaction problem: What to do?

[Wyatt]

 

Neither person has sent anything yet, and is refusing to unless they get the other neck. The OP is stuck in a pickle.

 

 

That's not what the OP says. It says one buyer will return only to the seller (that buyer is smart, never involve a third party). And that Paypal has already refunded both buyers' money. So, the Ibanez neck should be on its way back to styphon.

[Attila]

You shipped the wrong neck and then asked him to ship it to a third party . You can't prove either one is lying. And there is a chance neither is. His lack of receipt proves nothing in court, you have to prove he still has the neck. The burden of proof is on you and you can't meet it.

 

 

+1 -- well said. To the OP: You screwed up; just cut your loss and move on (learning from it, of course).

[styphon]

Since when did your $350 become $1000? And who buys $1000 for a (non vintage Fender) neck? You shipped the wrong neck and then asked him to ship it to a third party . You can't prove either one is lying. And there is a chance neither is. His lack of receipt proves nothing in court, you have to prove he still has the neck. The burden of proof is on you and you can't meet it.

 

 

I meant in total, 350$ in cash, plus 350$ in the actual guitar necks. 700$ total.

 

I have the paypal transaction of refunding the one guy for the cost of shipping the neck to the other person, this is one document proving he had the neck in his possession. I have written this in the transaction, and I have notes of him saying he has the neck.

 

So don't I have more than enough proof that he has the neck in his possesion? Its not my burden to prove if shipped it or if he lost it in the mail. It is *HIS* burden to prove that he shipped it to the other. When I asked the guy to send me a copy of the reciept to show he sent the neck, he send me pics of TONS of reciepts NONE being the one to the location the other seller is at! Actually NONE were to a U.S. location! I don't know who is lying, and I don't give a {censored}. I have proof that seller A has my jackson neck (paypal won't accept it, but a court will), I have proof that seller A took my money from a paypal callback *YET* never sent me the guitar neck back.

 

But, if he actually does have proof that he sent the guitar, I may be {censored}ed. If he has just a reciept, seller B has never admitted to getting the jackson neck, only the ibanez neck. But if it comes to this scenario, I will attempt to scare him with a court case into sending me the guitar neck or giving me my money back =p.

 

 

The correct way to handle this would have been to have each buyer return the neck to you for exchange or refund, but you didn't do that.

 

 

I know that now, but it doesn't help. I am too much of a trusting person, I assume people would act in the way I would (bad assumption). Now whenever I ship an expensive item, I am getting a tracking #, screw trusting people =p

 

 

That's not what the OP says. It says one buyer will return only to the seller (that buyer is smart, never involve a third party). And that Paypal has already refunded both buyers' money. So, the Ibanez neck should be on its way back to styphon

 

 

Paypal has refunded both people. Both are still in possession of the necks. The guy still has the ibanez neck, and I am trying to coax him into returning it to me personally. The jackson neck has magically disappeared.

 

It will cost me 25$ to file the small claims papers, 15$ to have the town clerk send him a certified "served" letter. A court date is then set. I think this may be enough to scare the crap out of this guy since he is running a "business"

[czarny]

So don't I have more than enough proof that he has the neck in his possesion? Its not my burden to prove if shipped it or if he lost it in the mail. It is *HIS* burden to prove that he shipped it to the other.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't burden of proof always up to the plaintiff? The plaintiff has to prove that the person did not send it.

[Wyatt]

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't burden of proof always up to the plaintiff? The plaintiff has to prove that the person did not send it.

 

 

Yes, the plaintiff must demonstrated how he has been aggrieved in court.

 

In this case, were there are at least four possible scenarios for a judge to choose from - seller is lying, buyer #1 is lying, buyer #2 is lying, the parcel is lost in shipping - the lack of the receipt isn't strong enough evidence to discount any of these possibilities. Add to this, Paypal has already sided with the buyers.

 

The fact is is there are multiple mistakes that make this a comedy of errors, many of which are styphon's fault -- he shipped the wrong necks, he handled the refund/return wrong -- as opposed to one lost receipt on the defendant. Ultimately, most judges are just going to reprimand all involved for not covering their asses and toss the case.

[Wyatt]

 

I meant in total, 350$ in cash, plus 350$ in the actual guitar necks. 700$ total.

 

 

No.

 

The sure fact you thing all of that is in play just shows me how naive you really are. No wonder you won't give up.

 

The cash isn't yours, you never delivered either product to their final destination. That cash was put up by the buyers in return for product...that's their money, always was. Neither transaction was completed, and that is 100% your fault. You can't sue for the refunded money. It's moot anyway, because you gave up all rights to contest the refund when you agreed to Paypal's conditions of use. The court won't touch the refund, they can't.

 

You already stated the Ibanez neck can/will be returned. I said, "get it back." You'll have to resale it. You can't sue for that loss, because it's not a loss, you get it back. If he doesn't send it back, that's a whole seperate case and another $40 to file.

 

You are out one Jackson neck.

 

The only thing you can sue for is the value of the only thing you lost...the Jackson neck. That's it. What was that? $175? 200? That's it. That's what you lost and all you can sue for.

 

I can't drive this home enough...this is your fault. You didn't do anything right to protect yourself in this transaction.

[styphon]

, you never delivered either product to their final destination. That cash was put up by the buyers in return for product...that's their money, always was. Neither transaction was completed, and that is 100% your fault. You can't sue for the refunded money. It's moot anyway, because you gave up all rights to contest the refund when you agreed to Paypal's conditions of use. The court won't touch the refund, they can't. You already stated the Ibanez neck can/will be returned. I said, "get it back." You'll have to resale it. You can't sue for that loss, because it's not a loss, you get it back. If he doesn't send it back, that's a whole seperate case and another $40 to file. You are out one Jackson neck. The only thing you can sue for is the value of the only thing you lost ...the Jackson neck. That's it. What was that? $175? 200? That's it. That's what you lost and all you can sue for . I can't drive this home enough...this is your fault. You didn't do anything right to protect yourself in this transaction.

 

 

Of course its all my fault.

 

-I didn't get a tracking #. I have been lucky before this, I had shipped close to 100 items and not one got lost or magically disasppeared. So I became very lax in getting tracking #'s.

 

-When I found out that the items had been reversed, I should have told them to send the items back to me. I just thought it would be best for them to just exchange necks with each other and skip the middle man, which (if everything had worked perfect) would have been twice as fast.

 

I am going to still file for small claims, especially against seller A if he doesn't respond. I just will stop/drop it before having to go to court.

[styphon]

Seller A claims that his lawyer advised him to reimburse me or the other buyer, and it is his responsibility for the loss =O

[leopardstar]

I think I am going {censored} around with the guy and take him to small claims court. Waste his time and money in a vengeful act =|

but you do know you could get stuck with the court fee's, right?

[knotty]

I stubbed my toe on the bed leg yesterday. I am gonna sue the guy who made the bed. Its obviously his fault!

[GibsonQC]

 

I think I am going {censored} around with the guy and take him to small claims court. Waste his time and money in a vengeful act =|

 

 

Problem is you have to sue him in his own district, I think. Either that, or you have to somehow collect across state lines. This is nearly impossible. I kicked around this idea a few years ago when someone sent me a dead computer from e-bay, prior to paypal and all the "payment protection" plans. I went so far as to get the papers and talked to the court's admin asst. She said that it was basically impossible to collect on these type of claims.

 

It is definitely {censored}ty, but if you didn't get tracking information confirming that the necks made it to their (incorrect) destinations, you're out of luck. How long has it been, and how did you ship the Jackson neck? It is possible that incorrect Jackson boy is telling the truth and that the neck is still in transit (if you shipped parcel post instead of priority). However, the guy could be a jerk who is messing with you.

 

Either way, you need his help, so I wouldn't start throwing around the idea of suing him and treating him like he's screwing you. If he truly hasn't received the neck yet and you get him pissed off, he will not be willing to help you when it arrives.

 

Good luck--it definitely sounds like a tough situation. I've often shipped multiple parcels and always wondered what would happen in this scenario.

[jrockbridge]

Of course its all my fault. -I didn't get a tracking #. I have been lucky before this, I had shipped close to 100 items and not one got lost or magically disasppeared. So I became very lax in getting tracking #'s. -When I found out that the items had been reversed, I should have told them to send the items back to me. I just thought it would be best for them to just exchange necks with each other and skip the middle man, which (if everything had worked perfect) would have been twice as fast. I am going to still file for small claims, especially against seller A if he doesn't respond. I just will stop/drop it before having to go to court.

You made a mistake. But, it's actually valuable if you can learn from it. Don't dig yourself in deeper by filing in small claims court. Let go of the vindictiveness and you'll be better in the long run. By the way, the $ goes in front of the digits....you're learning all kinds of things today. Added value.

[wader2k]

 

Since when did your $350 become $1000? And who buys $1000 for a (non vintage Fender) neck? Your flushing good money after bad. You shipped the wrong neck and then asked him to ship it to a third party . You can't prove either one is lying. And there is a chance neither is. His lack of receipt proves nothing in court, you have to prove he still has the neck. The burden of proof is on you and you can't meet it. You {censored}ed up. And you tried to cut corners in fixing the situation and it's your fault you are out of the money. There are set ways to proceed when shipping and dealing with Paypal. You ship with a tracking number (and delivery confirmation and insurance) and provide that to Paypal. When you shipped the wrong necks out, the way to cover your ass was to provide a refund on the condition that the items are returned to you, and you can require them to provide tracking numbers for the returned necks via Paypal before refunding the money (that's what Paypal requires for claims of the wrong item being sent). You didn't do that. You went outside of the protection of Paypal and had them ship the necks to each other. This opens up a whole host of possibilities, one can be lying or the other, you could be lying, the item could actually be lost in the mail. And a judge isn't going to award you damages on a single possibility without hard proof. Now if you had a witness that saw the other party with the neck. Then you would have a case.

 

 

 

this is correct.....and I'm glad I wasn't imagining the escalation from $350 to $1000

[wader2k]

Good luck with this mess......you will need it..esp if you try and tell a judge you are out $700....when you only had $350 in the game in the first place.....he will laugh you right out of his court.

[twisty571]

You are at those buyers will to do what they want now,they have the money and the necks,if the 1 is willing to send the neck back,awesome call it good fortune & that would make me lean in the other guys direction for the other neck. Pay-Pal won't do crap for you unless you have proof of delivery. Guess lesson learned,always spend the $0.55 for the delivery confirmation option. But using pay-pal they offer it for free if you print a pay-pal shipping label out from them.

[satannica]

I am going to still file for small claims, especially against seller A if he doesn't respond. I just will stop/drop it before having to go to court.

 

 

Two things.

 

1. Are you aware of the term "Abuse of Process"... I'd look it up.

 

2. Have you entertained the possibility that the jackson neck got delivered to guy 2 and he actually has it, but wangled in a nice refund and therefore free neck and is offering to return the Ibanez to keep face? Puts the finger of suspicion on the other buyer? Who was the most prompt payer? Did anyone mess around?

 

Fact is you have no idea who's lying or not. Your mistake dude, sorry but we've all gotten burned on ebay at one point or another. I have a few times. Result - i don't use it and just trade on here. It may take me a year to get a bite on anything I have up for sale, but I'm happy to let it sit there for that amount of time and do a face to face exchange! I don't mind doing the driving if that's what it takes and I'd much rather the buyer is happy with what I have so I don't have some big {censored}storm on here "satannica sold me a pedal and its been filled with mayonaise and its all sour and drippy and smells bad, he's a bastid"... and I get my cash or exchange item! Or the other way round, whatever!

 

Good luck!

[GCDEF]

You stand no chance in court. You'd have to prove that the guy didn't ship the neck. He says he did and unless you can prove he didn't, the judge will side with him. Add to that that it wasn't his responsibility to ship in the first place.

Once the mistake was made, you should have paid for both buyers to send the necks back to YOU with insurance and tracking.

Get the one neck back and walk away.

[DonK]

 

You stand no chance in court. You'd have to prove that the guy didn't ship the neck. He says he did and unless you can prove he didn't, the judge will side with him. Add to that that it wasn't his responsibility to ship in the first place. Once the mistake was made, you should have paid for both buyers to send the necks back to YOU with insurance and tracking. Get the one neck back and walk away.

 

 

Completely true. Unless Guy A lives in the jurisdiction where the OP plans to file his claim, he's not even going to be required to appear. Moreover, the OP admits to directing Guy A to ship the neck to Guy B. Guy A claims he followed the OP's directions. Guy A was under no obligation to provide the OP with proof of shipment or delivery. Guy A did not get the neck he paid for (and has since been refunded for), and claims to have followed the directions of the OP in shipping the other neck to the destination of the OP's choosing. In directing Guy A to ship the incorrect neck somewhere other than back to the OP, the OP took a risk (and compounded the errors he'd already made); no court is going to indemnify the OP for his failure to use good judgment (also known as "prudent business practices" in commercial contexts). And the OP isn't going to be able to enforce a claim across state lines even if he were to miraculously prevail in court.

 

Guy B didn't get the from the OP the neck he contracted for. He has an obligation to ship the incorrect neck back to the OP at the OP's expense: it was the OP's mistake, not Guy B's. If the OP claims that Guy B received the neck from Guy A, it will be to the OP to prove it. Without POD, that isn't going to happen.

 

When the OP gets the neck back from Guy B, he'll have gotten as much as he's going to get.

[whitegreyblack]

Make sure you have it straight, OP. You {censored}ed up every step of the journey.

 

Should have insisted on both necks being returned to you with tracking #s before issuing refunds, and taken the hit on shipping fees in order to make amends for your own screw-up. If you were looking for sympathy with your story and subsequent hole-digging here, it shows how foolish you've really been in the whole matter.

 

"Live and learn" ... or perhaps in your case, just "live"?

[FatFingered]

claims that his lawyer advised him to reimburse me or the other buyer, and it is his responsibility for the loss =O

 

 

Dude, you were the seller. YOU are SELLER A! It was your responsibility to fix the mistake. You tried to save some money by not having your buyers ship the necks back to you to reship to the correct buyers.

 

If you had the wrong pizza sent to your house in a mix-up, would you stand for having to correct the pizza man's job? Your buyers shouldn't have even been required to go to the post office. You should have sent UPS to pick up the necks for the return. Geez!