Members KevinTJH Posted December 8, 2018 Members Share Posted December 8, 2018 I own a gorgeous mid-high end Guild 12-string guitar in mint condition but it has had the unfortunate fate of a lifted bridge. I took the guitar to my trusted guitar tech that I have been seeing for years and he reassured me that drilling 2 screws into the bridge would fix the problem straight away as he didn't recommend pulling out the entire bridge and re-glueing it. And so, he did just that. When I let the strings ring out and put weight on the bridge, there is no tonal change so I'm rather confident that there is absolutely no movement on the bridge anymore. It's really just more of a cosmetic issue at this stage. I picked up some wood putty from my local hardware store but wanted to get some opinions and advice first before risking damaging this guitar. Look forward to the input of some of you experts! Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 8, 2018 Members Share Posted December 8, 2018 Please don't. It is fairly common to put hardware in bridges - some manufacturers do it. Hopefully he used bolts instead of screws and as long as he didn't try to get any additional glue under the bridge it is a reasonable temporary fix. The usual trick is to put a pearl or pearloid dot over the head of the screw. If you use CA then in the future when you bring it to me to fix correctly I can touch my soldering iron to it and it will pop right out so I can get at the bolt head. https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Inlay_and_Pearl/Pearl_Dots.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted December 8, 2018 Members Share Posted December 8, 2018 Just say NO to caulk! Wood or pearl buttons as Freeman said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 8, 2018 Members Share Posted December 8, 2018 Please don't. It is fairly common to put hardware in bridges - some manufacturers do it. Hopefully he used bolts instead of screws and as long as he didn't try to get any additional glue under the bridge it is a reasonable temporary fix. The usual trick is to put a pearl or pearloid dot over the head of the screw. If you use CA then in the future when you bring it to me to fix correctly I can touch my soldering iron to it and it will pop right out so I can get at the bolt head. https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Inlay_and_Pearl/Pearl_Dots.html ^ What Freeman said. When the guitar is ready for a proper fix any caulk residue would likely cause problems getting glue to adhere. If you'll look at the pics you'll see the tech used black dots rather than pearl. And given the noticeable gap under the edge of the bridge I'd say it's unlikely he bothered to squirt glue under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danocoustic Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 My take is that Kevin is asking about using the caulk to close the gap between the bridge and the soundboard---not to cover the holes from the hardware. If that's correct, I would answer NO! As Deep End said, you'll play hell getting rid of the residue when the bridge is repaired properly. My 2c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KevinTJH Posted December 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 Waaaaait. This is only a temporary fix?!? What will happen if I don't do anything about it? Would a permanent fix mean pulling off the entire bridge and re-glueing it? Are there any other alternatives to this? And given the noticeable gap under the edge of the bridge I'd say it's unlikely he bothered to squirt glue under it. Would having glue squirted underneath make the difference of making this a permanent fix? As in, could I potentially make a putty out of wood dust and wood glue and apply it with a credit card or so? I'll be masking off the surrounding area of course. My take is that Kevin is asking about using the caulk to close the gap between the bridge and the soundboard---not to cover the holes from the hardware. If that's correct, I would answer NO! As Deep End said, you'll play hell getting rid of the residue when the bridge is repaired properly. My 2c. That's correct. I'm not bothered about the black circle dots at all. It's merely just filling those gaps. If you look closely, there are not just gaps between the bridge and soundboard, there are also gaps where the bridge wood has split a little as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danocoustic Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 Waaaaait. This is only a temporary fix?!? What will happen if I don't do anything about it? Would a permanent fix mean pulling off the entire bridge and re-glueing it? Are there any other alternatives to this? Would having glue squirted underneath make the difference of making this a permanent fix? As in, could I potentially make a putty out of wood dust and wood glue and apply it with a credit card or so? I'll be masking off the surrounding area of course. That's correct. I'm not bothered about the black circle dots at all. It's merely just filling those gaps. If you look closely, there are not just gaps between the bridge and soundboard, there are also gaps where the bridge wood has split a little as well. The bridge's function is to couple the strings' vibrations to the soundboard, so if you have less than complete solid contact, you're losing volume, if not tone as well. I disagree with your tech's decision on how to repair this. I would have removed the bridge and reglued it. Not that difficult a job. If the bridge itself is damaged, a replacement is not too expensive to buy or too difficult to fabricate. His repair may keep it from popping off, but in my opinion, it's not the way to properly fix it. Your Guild sounds like a guitar worth fixing right. If it was mine, that's what I would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 Waaaaait. This is only a temporary fix?!? What will happen if I don't do anything about it? Would a permanent fix mean pulling off the entire bridge and re-glueing it? Are there any other alternatives to this? Would having glue squirted underneath make the difference of making this a permanent fix? As in, could I potentially make a putty out of wood dust and wood glue and apply it with a credit card or so? I'll be masking off the surrounding area of course. I the technician has fixed the bridge down with bolts it will likely remain that way for the rest of its life. If it was me I'd have wicked in some epoxy resin into the gap before tightening up the screws - that would have definitely made it a permanent fix. PS. People say you shouldn't make a permanent repair in case you want to take the bridge off at some future time - why would you want to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Misha Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 OMG! Bolts on an expensive acoustic! The luthier reglued the bridge on my Larrivee. There was a crack under, he fixed it and then took care of the bridge that was also lifting. It didn't cost much and it has been done professionally ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 There's nothing more you can do to improve the repair that has already been done. More glue or putty will just make things worse. I'd just play it and forget about it. If you want it permanently fixed it needs to be removed and re-glued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 Waaaaait. This is only a temporary fix?!? What will happen if I don't do anything about it? Would a permanent fix mean pulling off the entire bridge and re-glueing it? Are there any other alternatives to this? The correct fix is to remove the bridge, clean up whatever adhesive and/or finish is in the old foot print, possibly clean up any wood damage, then glue the old bridge back on with the correct wood working glue (either hot hide if its a vintage instrument or AR if its modern like yours). New glue does not adhere to old glue or finish, thats why it has to be removed. The bridge is properly aligned and clamped using cauls that will distribute the clamping pressure to the plate. The holes are then redrilled and reamed - sometimes the top or bridgeplate needs to be repaired also. This is the mostly highly stressed joint on a guitar, even worse on a 12 string. I do this repair frequently - it normally takes me about an hour of billable labor. I've actually posted several threads here about how I do it, the simple fact is that it needs to be done correctly or it will fail again. Not knowing anything about your "luthier" I'm hard pressed to criticize him/her but in my humble opinion what he did was not the best fix. First, the strength of the joint has been compromised - now he is relying on two small screws or bolts to withstand the 230+ pounds of shear force being exerted on that joint. Here is an old gibson plastic bridge that was screwed on from below - the three screws pulled thru the bridge plate so the owner added two more. When I fixed it (by making a new wood bridge) I had to fill all the holes and repair the damage to the top and bridge plate [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412813}[/ATTACH] Here is a twelve string bridge, when it ripped loose it took the top ply of the laminated top with it. The glue held but there wasn't enough of it, the finish had not been removed from the top so it didn't hold [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412814}[/ATTACH] Here is an absolute piece of crap guitar that the bridge was glued on with one spot of glue in the middle and two skinny little bolts. Once again, the bolts pulled thru the top - that all that was holding it on [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412815}[/ATTACH] How about another 12 string, this one a Fender. They hadn't bothered to remove any finish from the top - just tried to glue to the catalyzed poly-something finish. The two little light dots are bits of dowels that index the bridge with it was "attached". Btw, this guitar was brand new and hanging on the music store wall. Btw too, Fender refused warranty on this guitar - after I fixed it the shop sold it at their cost. [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412816}[/ATTACH] Here is some sort of black thing - once again the factory didn't do a very good job of preparing the top [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412817}[/ATTACH] I've got lots more but you get the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 Waaaaait. This is only a temporary fix?!? What will happen if I don't do anything about it? Would a permanent fix mean pulling off the entire bridge and re-glueing it? Are there any other alternatives to this? Would having glue squirted underneath make the difference of making this a permanent fix? As in, could I potentially make a putty out of wood dust and wood glue and apply it with a credit card or so? I'll be masking off the surrounding area of course. . . . As garthman said, the existing repair will probably last for years but it's not ideal. On one of John Denver's album covers you can clearly see screw/bold heads on opposite ends of the bridge on his Guild 12-string so it's not like it's an uncommon repair but I'd be willing to bet whoever did that repair also glued the bridge down and probably prepped the top beforehand. At minimum, your repair tech could and should have squirted glue under the edge of the bridge to help hold it in place if he wasn't going to remove and replace it. The bolts would have acted like clamps in that case. But if he'd done that you wouldn't see a gap under the edge because the glue would have filled it. At this point I wouldn't try anything else, just live with the existing repair until you have the funds and find another repair tech or the bridge comes off completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 9, 2018 Members Share Posted December 9, 2018 . At minimum, your repair tech could and should have squirted glue under the edge of the bridge to help hold it in place if he wasn't going to remove and replace it. . He should not have tried that - it would only make the eventual remove and repair worse. This little epiphone jewel is a classical guitar (but it had steel strings on it when it came to me). When the bridge started coming loose (duh) some bozo squirted some five minute epoxy around the edge of the bridge and under it. [ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tIMG_4748.JPG Views:\t1 Size:\t145.5 KB ID:\t32412895","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"32412895","data-size":"full"}[/ATTACH] I charged an extra half hour of labor to clean up the cluster and fix the top. [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412898}[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412897}[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":32412896}[/ATTACH] Oh, and tie some nylon strings on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emory Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 Amazing photos from the master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 He should not have tried that - it would only make the eventual remove and repair worse. This little epiphone jewel is a classical guitar (but it had steel strings on it when it came to me). When the bridge started coming loose (duh) some bozo squirted some five minute epoxy around the edge of the bridge and under it. . . . Perhaps you'd be kind enough to quote the part of my post that includes the word "epoxy." When I say "glue" I mean glue; for example, Titebond. If I mean epoxy, that's word I'll use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 I was telling the OP what the bozo who tried to "fix" the Epiphone classical did. But, as you also know, AR glues like Titebond do not adhere well to old AR glue or to finish for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 Well, I'm a bozo then because I've fixed four lifting bridges (2 for myself and 2 for friends) with exopy resin. True, I did take the bridges off first and cleaned up the surfaces before I glued them down. But if done properly it makes a clean and permanent repair. PS. I did one of the repairs above the text book way using wood glue initially but the bridge began to lift again after 2 months. Exopy cured it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danocoustic Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 Exopy, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Exopy, huh? It is hard to find... very specialized stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danocoustic Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 It is hard to find... very specialized stuff... I think you gotta have a special license just to buy it! sorry, garthman...just foolin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 Well, I'm a bozo then because I've fixed four lifting bridges (2 for myself and 2 for friends) with exopy resin. True, I did take the bridges off first and cleaned up the surfaces before I glued them down. But if done properly it makes a clean and permanent repair. PS. I did one of the repairs above the text book way using wood glue initially but the bridge began to lift again after 2 months. Exopy cured it. Howard, I'm not going to get in a pissin' match with either you or DE, high strength (slow set) epoxy does have a place in instrument repair, namely when there is a lot of wood damage and you need to fill gaps, However most repair people will use a wood glue and usually try to match the original, Here are two Guild bridge repairs, look at the fifth post by DandKirkland http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=51275 and the fifth one here by Bob Gramann http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5715 Here is a handy little chart from Frank Ford's website. He says epoxy is "ok" for fixing bridges but below HHG and AR. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/gluechart.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted December 10, 2018 Members Share Posted December 10, 2018 {facepalm thingie} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted December 11, 2018 Members Share Posted December 11, 2018 Howard, I'm not going to get in a pissin' match with either you or DE, high strength (slow set) epoxy does have a place in instrument repair, namely when there is a lot of wood damage and you need to fill gaps, However most repair people will use a wood glue and usually try to match the original, Here are two Guild bridge repairs, look at the fifth post by DandKirkland http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=51275 and the fifth one here by Bob Gramann http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5715 Here is a handy little chart from Frank Ford's website. He says epoxy is "ok" for fixing bridges but below HHG and AR. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/gluechart.htmln I'm sure you can p'ss better than DE or me, Freeman. And I know there is a "right" (or perhaps "method that has been used by luthiers for ages") method. And I'm sure that if I had a very expensive guitar that I might want to sell in the future I'd take it to a reputable fellow and trust that the job would be well done. But for for a repair to an old, not so expensive guitar - or even an expensive guitar that the owner loves and intends to keep - a nice easy DIY job like using epoxy (phew) and / or bolts to permanently fix a lifting bridge is a great option. It's easy to do, works well and costs next to nothing. Doesn't make people bozos though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted December 11, 2018 Members Share Posted December 11, 2018 I think the bozo comment was about trying to squirt the glue into the gap without removing the bridge, not that only a bozo would use epoxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted December 12, 2018 Members Share Posted December 12, 2018 I've done that too - works fine with epoxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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