Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 Was worried this might happen. Any diy help appreciated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 17, 2018 Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 It happens all the time - my most common repair. The bridge to top joint is the most highly stressed on in the entire guitar. The steps to repairing it are: Remove lthe bridge completely. A lot depends on how it is separating - whether it is the glue line that is failing or whether it is ripping fibers out of the top. Sometimes both. If the glue line is failing it is usually possible to work a very thin blade in the seam and just keep opening it up. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/Fender%20bridge%20repair\/IMG_1088_zpsvdosvmzl.jpg"}[/img2] Sometimes it takes a little heat - in that case I have a small heat blanket that is just shaped like a bridge. Anyway, get it off. Decide why it failed and the best way to deal with the failure. Often the manufacture has done a really poor job of preparing the top - this is a Fender where they (1) failed to remove the finish from the top (glue does not stick to finish) and (2) they didn't use nearly enough glue even if it was cleaned of finish. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/Fender%20bridge%20repair\/IMG_1090_zps2weybqk0.jpg"}[/img2] To get the finish off I have applied a chemical stripper and am removing it with a chisel down to bare wood [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/Fender%20bridge%20repair\/IMG_1094_zps9jprktkb.jpg"}[/img2] In this case what I want is two clean wood surfaces just like it was a new guitar. Sometimes the glue is stronger than the wood and the bridge rips spruce off of the top. A couple of interesting things here - this is a pinless steel string bridge (a Taylor) and notice the two little locating pins (one is missing). Part of Taylors automated assembly. Also there is a UST - that needs to be removed so it won't get damaged during assembly. [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/IMG_1463_zps41a71602.jpg"}[/img2] In this case I usually don't try to remove the wood from the bridge but rather just glue it all back together. Once I'm happy that I've the best prepared surfaces I simply glue it back on. The two acceptable glues are hot hide, which you won't want to work with and AR, plain old Titebond. I have a couple of cauls that fit inside the guitar and gives me something to clamp against - this is the infamous KBK Bridge caul developed here at HCAG many years ago. It is made out of UHMW so glue doesn't stick to it and it has two 3/16 bolts that align it and the bridge with the pin holes [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/KBK%20Bridge%20caul\/IMG_0476_zpshqmji6qk.jpg"}[/img2] From the outside [img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Repairs\/IMG_2011_zps970c32aa.jpg"}[/img2] I like to see good glue squeeze out all around the bridge - HHG and AR clean up easily. Let it set over night, remove the clamp and caul, ream the pin holes (there will be some glue that has squeezed into them, and Bingo! A common price for removing and regluing a bridge is about $45. Good luck with yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 17, 2018 Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 While I have your attention I want to show you something really pathetic. This is a brand new Fender 12 string that was hanging on the wall in my music store. The bridge popped. The factory had simply not tried to remove the finish from the top (some sort of bomb proof poly) and had glued the bridge directly to it To add insult to injury, because the guitar had been hanging for over a year Fender would not honor the DEALER with a warranty, not to mention a buyer. When we sent pictures to them their reaction was "thats the way we make them" The shop sold the guitar way below their cost with full disclosure, I included a full set of pictures with the guitar and my personal warranty (which is until the ower or I die, which ever comes first). Anyway, I have seen a fair number of Fender acoustics with separating bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 Thanks Freeman... mine's a Recording King and I got it new with a $50 off coupon from musicians friend for $125 when this model was first i offered. Wasn't expecting the repair to be that inexpensive so probably the better route since a home made clamp might not work a 100% I'm guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 The top doesn't look to be bellying up to my eye.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 17, 2018 Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 Its not a reasonable diy project because of the special clamps and cauls. If you lived near me we would do it in a half hour and it would cost you a beer. Maybe two. I just looked up the price on Kimsey's site - 40 bucks. It would cost more to ship it to him than to do the repair http://www.bryankimsey.com/2015%20Price%20List.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 17, 2018 Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 I wouldn't expect it to be - its just that that cool looking little pyramid bridge doesn't have as much gluing surface and I would guess that a PacRim guitar didn't get the best prep before it was glued on. There is two ways to do that, either mask off the bridge area before finish (which is kind of tricky) or remove the finish where the bridge will go, which is also kind of tricky. Both require human labor, possibly someone who doesn't understand how stressed that joint is. Or doesn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 17, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2018 I'd feel pretty guilty at a beer or two but then you know how a beer or two goes... $40-45 seems too cheap even. Pretty sure guitar center has some luthiers they recommend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 18, 2018 Members Share Posted July 18, 2018 Ed, I did a little work for another forumite a while back - he was having trouble putting something together, shipped it to me and it came out pretty well. He asked me what I would charge - I jokingly said "buy me a beer". He asked what kind of beer I liked, I told him and a few days later two six packs of really interesting boutique beer that is not available in my location arrived on my door step. It cost far more to ship it than to buy it and I enjoyed every sip. Back to bridges. Right after I typed the stuff above I got a call from my music store - a kid had brought in a 6 and a 12 string, both with lifting bridges. Looks like I've got some work for tomorrow. ps - if you can't find someone to do the work let me know. UPS ground shipping is probably 30 bucks, I would take a rain check on the beer. I'm up in Washington State if you want to do the calcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 18, 2018 Members Share Posted July 18, 2018 Ed. I have a Recording King with the same bridge and the same thing happened. When I took the bridge off (like Freeman does it - heat and thin blade), I noticed that the top varnish extended approx 1/8th inch under all sides of the bridge (the remainder was bare wood). I did the repair with wood glue and it was fine for a couple of months but it started rising again. For the second repair I used epoxy resin - people say you shouldn't do this because you can't ever get the bridge off again - but I've used it before and everything went well and, if you think about it, you don't want the bridge to come off again, do you? I used a couple of bolts through the outside bridge pin holes to hold it down while the resin set - works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 19, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 Thanks for the offer Freeman but wouldn't want to go to the trouble for this guitar and the amount I use it. Thanks Howard I may just try and coax the bridge off and if it doesn't put up much of a fight go from there. Can't think of anything to heat it with other than maybe a small pot full of hot water. That might be a little shaky though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 19, 2018 Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 Epoxy is not recommended for that repair for exactly that reason - its totally permanent. However if you are going to use it, don't use the 5 minute stuff, get the slow setting (24 hour) stuff and mix per directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 19, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 Clothes iron might be the ticket... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 19, 2018 Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 Yep. A damp cloth over the bridge and a clothes iron - that's what I used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 19, 2018 Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 Indeed. But a permanently stuck down bridge is fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 19, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2018 I did more damage than I would have liked but once I started felt like I was commited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 20, 2018 Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 High strength slow set epoxy will be your friend on that since it fills void better than most glues. Epoxy is a mess to clean up - I would wax the top right up to the edge of the bridge with parafine or candle wax. Denatured alcohol will also dissolve epoxy before it kicks off, after than nothing will. Depending on the finish alcohol may damage it so I would use it only as a last resort. You can see part of the problem with trying to clamp using only a couple of bolts thru the pin holes - it just won't apply any pressure out on the ends of the wings. That is a hard part any way you do it - the bridge wings sit right on top of the X brace. Again, you will probably be relying on the epoxy to fill any voids. Btw - I did the two guitars that came in a couple of days ago. Two cheap black PacRim things - one had failure of the top wood (kind of like your picture), the other still had coats of finish under the bridge. Both are resting with a KBK caul and a bunch of my deep clamps - back to the owner tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 20, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 Very much so especially with the thin wing like ends so may go this route it's a little pricey and after buying the epoxy I'll have saved nothing. Not apposed to the permanent nature of the epoxy since this guitar doesn't warrant any other more expensive repairs that might arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 20, 2018 Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 There are several versions of the Sloane clamp - come require at least one deep c-clamp and an inside caul. It looks like that one works thru the pin holes - I haven't actually seen one or used it. There are people who swear by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 20, 2018 Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 You can see part of the problem with trying to clamp using only a couple of bolts thru the pin holes - it just won't apply any pressure out on the ends of the wings. . It worked for me, Freeman. I guess it might be a problem if the top is bowed but Ed says it's not so the bolts should do the trick. If there is a slight bowing and the wings of the bridge are standing slightly proud, a quick (and cheap) fix is to drill a pilot hole approx 3/4 inch from the end of the bridge on each side and screw in a small self-tapping screw to hold it down while the resin sets. Then you can take out the screw and fill the hole with a little wood filler (I have a set of furniture scratch cover pens of different shades - £1 from a Pound shop - that coloured the filler to make a near invisible mend). I didn't need to do this on the Recording King but it worked well on an old classical on which I converted the bridge to a 12 hole to improve the saddle break angle. If I was doing this sort of thing on a regular or commercial basis I'd invest in some professional gear but it's amazing how you can amass enough cheap DIY tools and tricks to get by for a few pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 20, 2018 Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 You have a little more broken wood than I did but it will glue back on fine with epoxy resin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted July 20, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 The top may have a slight deformity or could be that I am wanting to leave as much of the wood material on the bridge as possible so that is something I'll work on to get it to flush. Only takes slight pressure on the ends to get them to flush so not going to be a huge problem. What I think I might do either way is use two bolts tthrough the pin holes and secure with the nuts on the outside then modify a strap to fit on top of that and secure with nuts... the strap having bolts and nuts at the end to apply pressure there. Not sure what to use on the pin bolts to keep them from being glued in place though.. As far as the epoxy mess thinking I'll tape it off and not get too carried away with the amount. Let the epoxy set up to be tacky and remove the tape before it sets up completely.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 20, 2018 Members Share Posted July 20, 2018 Some things to think about Ed. First, most of the time when the finish is removed from the top there is a little edge, maybe 1/8 inch, left under the bridge. It is very hard to scribe and remove the finish all the way to the edge of the bridge, this helps hide it. However that means that the middle of the gluing surface is 5 to 10 mils, maybe even more with thick poly finish, below the finish. There are several ways to handle this - I think most people just try to apply enough clamping pressure to suck the parts together in the middle. Epoxy will make that not quite as critical. You and also cut a little groove around the edge of the bridge - problem with that is if you cut it too deep you'll have a crack there. I try to do this if the finish is too thick or I feel that I am not getting good contact between the bridge and top. Second, its almost impossible to keep glue from running into the pin holes and getting inside the guitar. If you use bolts they often get glued into place and have to be unscrewed. If I am using machine screws from the inside I make it a point to put a nut on next to the head, that way I can reach inside the guitar with a box end wrench and unscrew it. Glue getting inside the pin holes can glue whatever you use for a caul to the underside of the bridge. If you use big flat washers they can get glued in place. You should consider a piece of waxed paper between the washers or your caul and the bridge plate. That can be a real hassle trying to line everything up inside the guitar. Glue that gets into the pin holes needs to be reamed out. A 3/16 bit will work but it really needs to be a 5 degree taper. Unfortunately that is one more tool that pays for itself after 20 or 30 bridge jobs but is pretty hard to justify for one. As far as clamping pressure, you will know if you've got it right if you have nice even squeeze out all around the bridge. I usually end up with five points of clamping, the two bolts thru the pin holes, one clamp in the center and one on each wing. I'm careful with the ones on the wings since that is where the bridge sits on top of the X braces - I'll usually dry clamp everything before applying glue to make sure the clamps will be in the right place. Its a really good idea to lightly assemble everything and look inside with an inspection mirror and flashlight. Thats a whole lot better than smearing glue all over the place and then realizing something is wrong. Good luck. I'm off to the shop to pull the clamps off the two I glued up yesterday, ream the holes and string them back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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