Members eihmann Posted April 28, 2017 Members Share Posted April 28, 2017 Hello! I want to change an electronics on my solid body nylon string guitar. This is a copy of Chet Atkins model.I think about B-Band, but is there any reason to use UST+AST or only UST pickup will be enough ? And what can you say about Chinese B-Band from Aliexpress ?It looks like original, and seller to claim that it manufacturing on the same factory in China... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted April 28, 2017 Members Share Posted April 28, 2017 I think I understand what you're asking. My first question would be, why do you want to change the electronics in your guitar? Don't they work? Do you not like the way your guitar sounds? Second, when you say "electronics," are you talking about the pickup and preamp or just the pickup? Third, I don't know how your guitar is made but if it is a solid body you probably won't be able to use a soundboard transducer or AST anyway. Finally, personally I'd avoid Aliexpress and buy from a reputable dealer. Just because something "looks like original" that doesn't mean it's the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted April 28, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 28, 2017 Sorry, English is not my native language. Well, I have a vintage Japanese copy of Chet Atkins, produced by Morris. The pickup in it is totally broken, and preamp looks very outdated(a lot of old electrolytic capacitors--not good on my opinion). So I think about upgrade of all electronic stuff. About installation of AST pickup, I think there is not any problem to find or to cut a special groove for it. The question is what I get... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 28, 2017 Members Share Posted April 28, 2017 My two cents. Take all the electronics out and measure everything, see what you have. I'm going to guess that you do not have an AST - that is a soundboard piezo transducer and by definition, you don't have a sound board. The AST is usually attached to the bottom of the bridge plate on a true acoustic guitar. Measure the length of the UST and make sure your replacement is the same length. Remember that most nylon string guitars have a slightly wider saddle spacing. Also make sure the UST that you are buying fits your saddle slot - there are typically two widths (3/32 and 1/8 inch). Make sure your new electronic package fits in the space allocated for the old one and that the controls are in the same location - in other words if your old unit had a "barn door" configuration the new one needs to fit that space or you will need to make an adapter of some sort. I have never dealt with Aliexpress but there was some discussion of them at one of the lutherie forums. The conclusion was that they are a manufacture of cheap bootleg copies of known American brands, mostly Gibson, that quality was suspect and most of the people on that forum refused to have anything to do with their products. Your milage may vary. Assuming your guitar is based on the Gibson CEC model I would contact Gibson (or the Gibson discussion forum) and find out exactly what they put in their guitars and try to duplicate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted April 29, 2017 Members Share Posted April 29, 2017 If the pickup is damaged, then you can replace it with another that fits. Most good brands are about the same. Fishman is well known, as are B-Band and Shadow. As for the old electronics, don't worry itoo much about how they look as long as they work. As Freeman said, it will be hard to find a new preamp that fits the existing space and you'll end up with a guitar that looks terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted April 29, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 29, 2017 Let me explain my wish to chang the all electronics. At first, at the moment all pickups for Chet Atkins models are discontinued. Shure, I can buy new pickup from Fishman. It will cost around 100$. But what if result will be poor with my old preamp? If so, I will be forced to buy Fishman preamp. I think it cost another 100$ or even more. On the other hand, I could buying well-reputed complete set from B-Band for 150$ and install it with minimum adaptation. My hands grow from the right place, so it's not a big problem for me to make it carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 29, 2017 Members Share Posted April 29, 2017 Eihmann, that is a reasonable approach. Because that is an obscure guitar (even the Gibson version is pretty rare) none of us are going to have experience with it. That is why I suggested contacting Gibson or a forum more focused on that brand. However, if it was my guitar I would remove the pickup and all electrons and compare with what is available today. I gave you some parameters to look for - the transducer must fit correctly in the slot and the electronics either need to fit or you need to do some adapting. I would not mix transducers and preamps - it may or may not work (I once queried K&K about hooking one of their piezos to a Fishman preamp - they said it would not work well). Another option is to just install the transducer and use an external preamp - thats more of a hassle in use but much easier for the install. Lastly, the B-Band is a well known and popular system - unless you find some sort of sound board transducer in your guitar now you do not need the AST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted April 30, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 Thank you friends! All of you gave me a resonable ideas. And I make a choice. I belive I found the best decision. I bought LR Baggs LB6X pickup. The first reason that it sounds more naturally than b-band. I saw quite a lot of videos on YouTube for few last days, and I definitely prefer sound LB6. The second reason is that LB6 have a pretty high output level, so if original preamp will be bad, I could connect it directly in external amplifier. Shure, I need to adapt it anyway, but as I said it is not a problem. The new pickup will be delivered to me after 7-10 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 30, 2017 Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 The LB6 is a great pickup but it is a pain to install. I do install a lot of different pickups in acoustic guitars - mostly K&K sound board transducers (which would be a bit like the AST) and Fishman matrix units. A few weeks ago I did install an LB6. This is what I learned The LB6 consists of a combination of saddle and transducer - the piezo elements are bonded to the bottom of a micarta saddle. The unit that I had was 1/8 inch wide - the saddle slot in my guitar was 3/32 (remember, I warned you about this). That means that the first order of business was routing the slot out - fortunately I have a special jig that lets me do that (relatively safely). You may or may not have that problem depending on your existing saddle. Second, since the saddle is bonded to the transducer you have to shape the top of it to the correct curve, height and intonation adjustment. Normally when I install a UST its just a matter of sanding the bottom of the old saddle to give the proper action - in this case you basically shape a new saddle (and do it from the top which is considerably more difficult). If you happen to make the saddle to low your only choice is to shim it from the bottom which IMHO is not a good option. After my (one) experience with the LB6 I decided to charge extra next time I install one. I can install a K&K in a half hour, a Matrix in one, but I'm going to charge at least two hours of my time for the LB6, and remember, I have all the tools. Good luck with yours edit to add - here is the LB6, stock saddle and the bridge My little routing jig - the width and depth of a saddle slot it pretty critical If the LB6 fits your slot you won't need to do this https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5772af1029687f3cdf68994e/t/5876659dd2b857680056cb23/1484154269928/lr-baggs-lb6-install-manual.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted April 30, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 Freeman, your posts is very helpful. The width of slot in my case is about 8.5mm, so I need to narrow it. I think to make an insert from wenge(I have a piece at home). Or, the second way I see, is fill the free space with epoxy compaund. Talking about height of saddle, I assume that it will need to reduced too. I have mostly ordinary tools, but I believe the most of works can be done with a plain tools. It is rather a question of time and accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted April 30, 2017 Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 Definitely don't use epoxy or any other kind of liquid or putty to narrow the slot. The idea of a thin slice of wood is a good one, but RESIST the temptation to glue it in place. The string tension will hold it all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted April 30, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 Grant,sorry, but what's wrong with liquid filler ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 30, 2017 Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 Freeman' date=' your posts is very helpful. The width of slot in my case is about 8.5mm, so I need to narrow it. I think to make an insert from wenge(I have a piece at home). Or, the second way I see, is fill the free space with epoxy compaund. Talking about height of saddle, I assume that it will need to reduced too. I have mostly ordinary tools, but I believe the most of works can be done with a plain tools. It is rather a question of time and accuracy.[/quote'] 8.5mm is about a third of an inch (sorry, I'm US and that's the only way I can think). I have frankly never seen a slot that wide - most are 3/32 to 1/8, a rare case might be 1/4 inch. Be that as it may, if yours is really that wide I would completely fill it with a piece of wood, glued in with a normal wood glue, and then I would route the correct channel in the correct place with my fancy gizmo above. If you can't do that I would suggest waiting until you pickup arrives, measure it accurately and make two shims, one for each side of the slot. You want to keep the break point of the new saddle in exactly the same spot as the old one to keep the intonation correct (assuming you were happy with it before). If the shims or saddle is loose and sloppy you run the risk of breaking the bridge, the saddle should be snug but still easy to remove. Put the new saddle on its side on a table with the bottom against a block of wood. Put the old transducer and saddle on top of it and hold everything aginst the block (keep the wires out of the way). With a sharp pencil trace the curve of the old saddle onto the new one. You will want to slowly approach that line with files and sandpaper, keep putting the saddle into the guitar and checking the action. Remember that you can always take more off, its hard to put it back on. The install that I did we simply ran the pickup to a jack with no onboard electronics. The player uses an external preamp or DI - seems to work fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted May 1, 2017 Members Share Posted May 1, 2017 Actually, I've done a little research and I think the saddle really is that wide (8.5 mm). If you google Gibson CEC and look at some of the pictures the saddle is very wide - I'd say between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. That raises all sorts of other questions. I found this video about the CEC http://archive.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Lessons/InstrumentLessons/Adjusting%20Pickups%20on%20Gibson%20CE/ The Gibson version of the guitar has an ACTIVE system with six individual elements, one per string. I don't have any idea if Eihmann's copy has anything like this, he really hasn't shared a lot of information (a picture would be very helpful). Will an LB6 even work - I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't be the same. I can't believe that Eihmann followed my advice and took the existing transducer out, measured it and compared with the specification of what he was going to buy (there are several lengths of the LB6), I'm guessing that the greater string spacing of a nylon guitar would dictate using one of the longer ones. Having looked at the pictures and videos I'm going to back up 100 percent and say if it was my guitar (and it had the active pickup like the vid) I would contact either the builder or Gibson and buy a direct replacement intended for this guitar. I think that any attempt to jury rig something else is going to be a giant cluster (sorry Eihmann, I know English isn't your first language). Filling the saddle slot is irreversable, I wouldn't recommend it unless there is no other choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 1, 2017 Members Share Posted May 1, 2017 It looks like you're right on all counts as usual, including the potential giant cluster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted May 1, 2017 Members Share Posted May 1, 2017 Lets see, if I look back at my earlier posts it seems that I suggested that Eihmann post his question on a Gibson forum or maybe search for information on the CEC (assuming that is the guitar his is modeled after). It looks like there was a thread on replacing the saddle in a CEC here http://www.misterguitar.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2479&sid=c402f165ac1dae4f224c448dbc25c838 and one of the saddles suggested was the Barbera unit (which interestingly has six transducers. It is spendy (about $300) and has all the problems of the LB6 (fitting the existing saddle slot, setting the action height and intonation, stuff we already talked about). Apparently the saddle that Kirk Sand uses (Chet also played Sand's guitars) and their is a model designed for nylon strings. Interesting what you can find on the old internet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eihmann Posted May 2, 2017 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2017 Definitely, in my copy used passive pickup. So there is no insoluble problem. I bought a model LB6X which designed for string spacing 2 1/4" so there is no problem with linear positioning. Freeman, I'll take your advice and make two shims from hard wood. I will make some photos while working. Perhaps, the work and its result will be interesting for somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted May 2, 2017 Members Share Posted May 2, 2017 Looking forward to it and good luck with the installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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