Members jjang1993 Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 I posted this also in the Acoustic Guitar Section: I'd like to get input from both sides of the aisles here. Back in October of 2015, I had paid quite a bit to get my Epiphone Emperor Regent re-fretted with EVO Gold Frets with the hopes of never having to get my guitar re-fretted. I do have pretty corrosive hands. I also use LaBella nickel-plated steel strings. Fast forward to today, the guitar had developped a nasty buzz around the 7th fret. My guitar tech took the strings off and showed me the nature of the wear of these EVO Gold Frets. As you can see in the photos, the areas of the frets between the strings are corroded and worn down, yet the areas directly underneath the string are fine. My guitar tech said that he's never seen this before with these frets and it's most likely my body chemistry reacting with whatever alloys are in EVO Gold Frets despite them being physically harder than Nickel frets. I'm ruling out getting a new guitar, as personally, I really like this guitar and it has a lot of sentimental value too. I'm also ruling out getting stainless steel frets because lord knows how those might wear and I'm also concerned about the possibility of the frets changing the tone and attack on this guitar. I previously had nickel frets on this guitar, and they seemed to wear less when I had them between 2011-2015 when I was in college and practicing at least 3-4 hours daily, and oftentimes 6-8 hours. I got a fret dressing once within that timespan if memory serves me well. If anything, the frets developed wear like any other frets, with divest where the strings lay. However, there are other factors to consider that might not make this decision so clear cut: 1, I play with very very low action. I don't mind a little buzz as long as it doesn't come through the amp or is loud enough to be audible when I'm practicing. 2. My hands seem to sweat a little more on gigs, after I finished college in 2015, I started gigging a lot more, teaching a lot more, however less practicing. 3. I went to college in Los Angeles and did the majority of my practicing indoors. In general the climate was more dry but hotter in temperature. Here in Seattle, the climate is more humid however the temperature is colder. I'm not sure to what lengths being indoors combats the humidity. 4. Does one's body chemistry change over time?? I have two options, get the current EVO frets on this guitar redressed ($330 after tax roughly), or get this thing re-fretted with Nickel frets ($770 after tax roughly). I've been with the same guitar tech since I first started playing in 2006, and he charges a lot for fretwork he uses a Plek machine. It's worth the overall uptick in price compared to other techs in the area, as I trust this tech very much with this guitar. With any otherr guitar, I'd be fine giving it to another tech to work on. With either option, I'll need fret dressings and re-frets for the entire life of the instrument, it's just a question of how often (once again, I am not considering SS frets if you reread above). Any other input with this would be much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 I know you dont want stainless, but really you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 Gold is supposed to be impervious to everything except nitric acid. You body chemistry can reflect your diet and environment. You bend ferociously but with CNC precision. Something is very odd about those frets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 Gold is supposed to be impervious to everything except nitric acid. You body chemistry can reflect your diet and environment. You bend ferociously but with CNC precision. Something is very odd about those frets. I think you might be thinking of aqua regia, a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids. Very nasty stuff that dissolves gold and platinum. Either way, yes, those frets look odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 I think you might be thinking of aqua regia, a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids. Very nasty stuff that dissolves gold and platinum. Either way, yes, those frets look odd. Yeah my dad always bought up that aqua regia term talking about his wedding band. I thought it was just nitric acid. As far as those frets, that's just wear. Probably from just going for it; over confidence in the frets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Busk Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 I’d contact EVO. They may be interested in figuring out what happened and they might hook you up. Aren’t they supposed to be selling refrets that last forever or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrbrown49 Posted February 21, 2019 Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 It's not gold colored because it contains gold. It's a copper alloy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jjang1993 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Members Share Posted February 21, 2019 Hahah omg I talked to one of the managers at Jescar and he wanted to see the photos and he was straight up stunned. He said he's never seen or heard of that with EVO frets. I'm literally the only guitarist on this planet that would wear through EVO Gold frets like this. Let's make this an urban legend guys! Ok back to business, I got off the phone with another tech in town and he said that if the guitar still plays well, there isn't much of a need to get a total re-fret done given there's enough material. I'm bringing my guitar by his office tomorrow for him to take a closer look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jjang1993 Posted February 23, 2019 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2019 Ok, I'm probably going to just get a fret leveling/dress if there is enough material left over. Regardless of what happens I'm taking extra protocols after this problem is solved. How much would these protocols go in the long haul in preventing this madness from happening again to this extent and/or this early on (3 years)?1. Washing my hands with dawn dish soap before I play.2. Wiping the strings and frets down between songs on a gig.3. Wiping the entire area of the string after I'm done playing.4. Wiping down each fret after I'm done playing.5. Cycling through 4 different T-shirts every 2-3 days for wiping purposes. Now as much as I'd like to get stainless steel there are a few concerns.1. Risking the changing the tone and more importantly the attack of the notes.2. The EVO rep said that with my sweat, he's not even sure that stainless steel would survive.3. Stainless Steel isn't 100% anti-corrosive. On this page: https://www.bssa.org.uk/faq.php?id=8, it states "Although stainless steel is much more resistant to corrosion than ordinary carbon or alloy steels, in some circumstances it can corrode. It is 'stain-less' not 'stain-impossible'. In normal atmospheric or water based environments, stainless steel will not corrode as demonstrated by domestic sink units, cutlery, saucepans and work-surfaces. In more aggressive conditions, the basic types of stainless steel may corrode and a more highly alloyed stainless steel can be used" I think my sweat is an "aggressive condition" to say the least. I'm not sure what type of stainless steel fret wire manufacturers use, whether it's the "more highly alloyed stainless steel" described on this website or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted February 23, 2019 Members Share Posted February 23, 2019 Ok platinum then. Frankly I think you just went at it too aggressively thinking the frets were indestructible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted February 23, 2019 Members Share Posted February 23, 2019 Very interesting. A few observations and things.1.If you take a strong magnifier in the bound string zone is it all lateral scratches or is the wear tiny "pits" like an etch?2.Are your finger tips discolored after a long playing session?3.It looks to me from the photos like this weird phenomenon is very even over the frets, I would expect a "most played' zone4. Curious whether you bend a lot? Which would smear perspiration right across.The preservation of the understring area suggest not5.Whilst it is a folklore notion to think of 'different' skin chemistry we all share the same biology to a surprising degree of precision. So my money is on a bad batch of alloy, maybe a little porous, slipping into the fret production line. ps Do you know 100% that they are genuine evo gold fretwire from the source and not, say, a Chinese clone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 23, 2019 Members Share Posted February 23, 2019 I have not used Evo fretwire, only Nickle Silver or Stainless (if a customer requests). Here is what LMII says about Evo "Evo gold fretwire is a copper alloy (elemental composition: CuSn15Fe1Ti0.1) that has been used for years in the optical industry. It contains no nickel and therefore meets the"nickel free" European standard. It stands the test of time and can really dress up your guitar. With a Vicker's hardness of HV5/250, it is harder than our nickel/silver wire (HV5/200), but softer than the stainless (HV5/300). This wire is not plated; it is gold all the way through and retains the gold color once the frets are dressed" I don't see a lot of wear or divots in the pictures, I would first try polishing the frets to see if this is something going on on the surface. If you decide to refret it is obviously your choice which kind of wire to use but the prices quoted by your tech are much higher (roughly three times) the industry norm. There are also different opinions within the lutherie community about Plek'ed frets - many people feel the process is only as good as the operator and some techs feel that they can improve on it by hand. Obviously its a real boon for manufacturers and production situations. What do you have against stainless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted February 23, 2019 Members Share Posted February 23, 2019 . . . 5.Whilst it is a folklore notion to think of 'different' skin chemistry we all share the same biology to a surprising degree of precision. . . . More to it than you'd think. I can't wear cheap watches because my sweat eats pits into the metal. My current watch is SS and I haven't had any issues with it. Not necessarily saying it's the cause here but it could well be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 I've never seen anything like that. High quality stainless steel frets is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chordite Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 Saline is a normal constituent of perspiration and will attack anybody's cheap watches. I mean what other magic metal eating chemical do you think you exude? (ruling the lizard people thing since I don't think they play guitar) Sweat levels vary between people and climates but not the chemistry. The only exception I could think of would be some regular pharmaceutical dose that is exuded partly through sweat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 If you can pick stainless steel frets in a blind listening test I'll refret it for you for free. They're just better in every way except ease of installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members badpenguin Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 I see some wear to those frets, but I "think" that the vast majority of it is discoloring. A fret dress should fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 Yeah - the first thing I'd try is masking the fb and using a super fine polishing compound to see if it's just surface corrosion. I bet it polishes up like new. If you're playing professionally you should do this every month or two anyway. It takes about 10 minutes during a string change. I still say that's obviously not the fret wire for you. Not all SS frets are the same. Have a read of this article by Anderson. Mine is now 15 years old and I play it often. There's still no wear that I can see and they're like butter to bend on. Never grab and always perfect. https://www.andersonguitarworks.com/frets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted February 24, 2019 Members Share Posted February 24, 2019 I have no idea but I wouldn't be surprised. Incidentally, sweat also contains ammonia and other chemicals. It's not just salt water. Depending on the formulation, one person's sweat might indeed be more corrosive than another's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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