Metal Guitar

[WRGKMC]

Been thinking about my next build for awhile now. First I was thinking of doing a Masonite, Dan Electro type of a build. That stuff is really easy to work with and simple to cut and route out.

 

Then I thought about using metal for the top. While its hardly unique, a guitar with a semi hollow steel or brass top body using wooden sides, neck block and bridge block for support purposes would still be pretty simple to build. I'm sure I'd be able to get the metal to resonate from the strings to get a decent tone. Just need to figure out how thick it needs to be to provide stability without warping.

 

Here's and example[le of a brass guitar

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"bb5b389884c3ba91e616e407a2155f2a.jpg","data-attachmentid":32334390}[/ATTACH]

 

I found one site that looks very reasonable for cost of metals. A 1X2' piece of 1/32" brass is just under $50. https://www.metalsdepot.com/brass-products/brass-sheet-plate With a wood block for bridge mounting I should be able to get away using that.

 

Steel, either galvanized of stainless is the cheapest at $20 for a 1X4" .028" piece which could be cut for a front and back piece.

Might look similar to this once polished. I'm thinking a softer steel would be better then stainless which has the tendency of cracking and being tough to cut and drill.

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"main-qimg-24991a3cf098187a946b074645ce482a.png","data-attachmentid":32334388}[/ATTACH]

 

When it gets rusty..

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"rusty_galerie_1.jpg","data-attachmentid":32334389}[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

The only tough part using it would be cutting it to size using a Jigsaw - Hacksaw blade. The pickup holes would be an ass buster too, but it cant be any worse then the last guitar I built. I burnt a Dremil out on that one, the wood was so petrified it burned the thing out.

 

I could glue and screw the metal to the frame. A good industrial glue like Liquid Nails could hold it together without any screws.

Maybe some flexible edging would do the trick?

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"71HnY3pptiL._SL1500_.jpg","data-attachmentid":32334391}[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

 

[t_e_l_e]

sounds like an interesting project, i like the look of those trussards or how they called, but no clue how they sound..

 

keep us updated, for what you are going for and how it goes

[Freeman Keller]

Good luck. I will watch this with interest. I spent 35 years of my life as an engineer for a metal fabrication plant - I think you are seriously underestimating this.

[WRGKMC]

Good luck. I will watch this with interest. I spent 35 years of my life as an engineer for a metal fabrication plant - I think you are seriously underestimating this.

 

Underestimating it? Not something I work with every day but I have made many pickguards out of metal before. It's not going to be a cakewalk but its not going to kill me either. Toughest part will be cutting it to match the hollow body shape and cutting the holes for pickups. Everything else is just straight forward guitar construction using a metal plate instead of wood.

 

I have built many semi hollow bodies. I have a Flat Top LP shape I'm likely to copy. A Tele shape wouldn't be too tough either. In fact I have a Tele Bridge, Pickups and neck available which would make the job even easier.

 

I don't know if I could get a tele bridge to sound very good on a metal top. I'm thinking a TOM type bridge might do a better job and I could use a

Bigsby I been holding onto for a project.

[Chordite]

On the upside it takes you outside the tonewood debate

I concur that stainless steel is a difficult material to work with and if you are machining it the swarf can also be hazardous (sharp).

Brass one of the easiest to machine and Aluminum great for sheet working but in the gauge you need for rigidity bent corners will be rounded.

I'd go to a non ferrous metal supplier and buy a few of bits of assorted Brass, Aluminum and Duralumin (which is stronger gauge for gauge) and play around producing forms.

 

 

[Grant Harding]

I didn't realise that you had built many semi hollow guitars. What's your brand name?

[Freeman Keller]

I didn't realise that you had built many semi hollow guitars. What's your brand name?

 

And please, some pictures.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Underestimating it?.

 

Yes, the simple steps are

- select a material - brass, mild steel, stainless steel, galvanized steel (good for tin cans and chicken coop roofs), aluminum, titanium....

- select a gauge of your material - thinner for workability and lightness, thicker for strength and machinability

- select a method of joining your material based on its properties - brazing, various welding (wire feed, tig, mig), bolts, screws, pop rivet, glue

- cut it out - snips, hack saw, band saw, plasma, laser, water jet (the laser might be a lot better option than you think)

- do the shaping, roll edges, drill or punch holes

- assemble it - do the welding or brazing or however you are going to stick it together

- finish it - chrome or other plating, brush finish like your second picture, polish stainless, corrode it, paint it

- build and attach a neck, all the other bits and pieces

 

You underestimate it.

 

I have bookmarked this thread and plan to watch it carefully

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

Just to lend a little credibility to what I have said, I have never built a metal guitar. But I did use the laser sheet metal cutter where I worked to make parts and jigs. Here is a 14 ga mild steel jig for cutting out the shape of a tri cone

 

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Tricone\/IMG_2416.jpg"}[/img2]

 

That could just as well be the top of a guitar, in which case it would probable be a different material and thinner.

 

Here is the insides of the tri cone. The little metal grills were made on the same laser cutter, they are 16 ga. stainless so I could polish them and they are epoxied in place sandwiched between the top and a back up brace

 

[img2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i51.photobucket.com\/albums\/f387\/Freeman_Keller\/Tricone\/IMG_2421.jpg"}[/img2]

 

Almost every sheet metal shop today has either a laser or water jet cutter and most are willing to shop out work. If you design your little guitar in a typical 2D cadd program, export it as a dxf file and take that to a sheet metal shop they can cut your pieces perfectly (and relatively cheaply). I think you'll find it a bit better than a hack saw

[WRGKMC]

I'm only going to be using a metal top. I have no plans on welding, brazing bending or any such nonsense needed for a guitar made entirely out of metal. If that were the case, I'd agree with you. It wouldn't be something I'd want to mess with.

 

I'm only going for a metal top to produce metal tones. You are making way too big a deal out of a simple design I have in mind which is in no way that difficult. The most I need to do is cut it to the shape of the hollow body top and then a couple of holes for the pickups and controls. We're not talking rocket science here. Just a guitar top which will be glued and screwed to the top of a wooden semi hollow body.

[WRGKMC]

I didn't realise that you had built many semi hollow guitars. What's your brand name?

 

Its only done 6 builds in the past 6 years of so. Two of those were semi hollow builds and the last of those was one the best builds I've made to date. The other is surely one of the most sonically unique.

 

I've had many offers from people wanting to buy them but I have no interest. The guitars I build are entirely for my own personal use, mostly for recording purposes. When I do choose to build one its to get a unique sound I cant get from a store bought instrument. (like the one I've suggested in this thread) I figured a metal top semi hollow might be the ideal build for playing slide guitar.

 

I've had as many failures as successes building too. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a fool or a liar. My first build was a pathetic attempt back in 1967 made from an old acoustic guitar neck I found. Made my own pickup for that one too.

 

Started re-fretting my own instruments in the late 70's and did instrument repairs for local music stores in the early 80's

 

I realize many guitarist think instrument repair and building is a romantic career. I suppose to someone who's never done it for a living, might think that, but to be honest it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize it's a dead end career path and even the best luthiers have to do allot of scratching to earn a living. earning . Most guitarists tend to be poorest musicians of the bunch too. Not a very good source of wealth no matter how good your work is.

 

Given the invasion of instruments sold for peanuts out of the orient, it proves my prediction of it being a poor career choice was dead on correct. I'm satisfied I made the right decision to take a higher paying job in electronics. Kept me from getting burned out on the music stuff.

 

I do take my hat off to those who struggle to earn a buck building and repairing instruments. Its a poor mans life if you don't have some other means of support.

 

I don't have the tools to build carved top jazz boxes either. I invested my money into studio and performance gear. I like to play more then build. When I do its mainly do it to get the unique sounds I cant get from a store bought instrument.

 

If you want I'll post some pics of the ones I have built. They are solid builds but nothing special to see.

What is far more interesting is how they sound like this clip of that last hollowbody build.

 

This one for example

Or this one.

None of my store bought instruments get me those sounds.

[Freeman Keller]

W, old boy , you make these grandiose claims about all the wonderful guitars you have built, but the only thing you have ever shown us is a coupe of pictures of that purple thing.. If you have all these guitars, then walk out into your studio, take a couple of pictures and share them with us. Even better, if you took pictures while you were building, share them. You seem very capable of embedding someone else's photos in your posts, how about your own?

 

A hollow body or semi hollow body guitar (you are using both terminology) is hard enough to build that lacking any other proof I just have to call b.s. on your claims.

[WRGKMC]

I have no idea what your personal problem is. I'm not the one who needs to drum up business reposting my old work like you constantly do.

 

First off, I posted builds on my older instruments back when I completed them. It likely predates you trying to turn this into your own personal website. If you missed it then go fish for them in the HC archives.

 

Second, I don't keep personal photos on my work computer. If I did want to repost them, I'd have to do it from home. Given your rotten vindictive attitude its obvious I'd be wasting my time.

You post makes it easy to predict what an ass clown like yourself would say about any pics I posted so why waste my time.

 

Third, You made a pledge several years ago to stay out of my threads and I agreed to stay out of yours.

I don't know where you think that's has changed. I don't mind anyone posting if they can act like a professional. Your post shows otherwise.

 

Personally I think you should stick to building guitars. You can remain blind to needing people pat you on the back for your work, like mommy and daddy. You get angry and seek to destroy your peers who judges your character instead of the work you do.

 

You have nothing to say that's of any interest to me. Its best you stay out of my posts and I'll stay out of yours. If you cant do this willingly I'll make a request to have HC put me on your ignore list.

[t_e_l_e]

guy's calm down, we are all grown up's here

[Chordite]

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"arguing-with-my-dumb-friend_o_546381.gif","data-attachmentid":32336200}[/ATTACH]

[Mikeo]

guy's calm down' date=' we are all grown up's here [/quote']

 

exactly.

More building, less bickering.

 

 

[uab9253]

I wonder how heavy it would be with a metal top? I had a 70's Applause/Ovation with an aluminum neck and fret board. It was all one piece - solid. It wasn't heavy, because it wasn't aluminum, but it didn't really sing either. I did have the typical cracked top, and it looked like hell, but for some reason it recorded like a dream, but only for cowboy chord type strumming. It sounded just okay in the room but on tape was amazing.

 

I see we still have some of the classic HC personality clashes going on. Feels like home, lol.

[mrbrown49]

WRGKMC, just a heads up since the message notifications don't always seem to be working. I sent you a PM.

[Grant Harding]

I blame the broken ignore function. It use to be so easy to stay harmonious.

[Mikeo]

I wonder how heavy it would be with a metal top? I had a 70's Applause/Ovation with an aluminum neck and fret board. It was all one piece - solid. It wasn't heavy, because it wasn't aluminum, but it didn't really sing either. I did have the typical cracked top, and it looked like hell, but for some reason it recorded like a dream, but only for cowboy chord type strumming. It sounded just okay in the room but on tape was amazing.

 

I see we still have some of the classic HC personality clashes going on. Feels like home, lol.

 

I'm not sure, however, I have an older Dobro OMI resonator that has been with me for 25 years or longer. It's pretty heavy but no worse than a Les Paul.

 

I think to make something like a resonator, there's a lot of jigs involved. I think Gibson tooling for making anything like this again is laying in the bottom of the Cumberland River .

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobro 33Ha.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337028}[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobr 33Hc.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337029}[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobro 33Hd.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337030}[/ATTACH]

 

 

[Mikeo]

 

https://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-harley-davidson-stratocaster-1993-aluminum

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"p1_uw43a2up5_ss.jpg?maxwidth=500.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337044}[/ATTACH]

 

[catscurlyear]

the reflections look realy nice.

[WRGKMC]

 

I'm not sure, however, I have an older Dobro OMI resonator that has been with me for 25 years or longer. It's pretty heavy but no worse than a Les Paul.

 

I think to make something like a resonator, there's a lot of jigs involved. I think Gibson tooling for making anything like this again is laying in the bottom of the Cumberland River .

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobro 33Ha.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337028}[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobr 33Hc.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337029}[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"Dobro 33Hd.jpg","data-attachmentid":32337030}[/ATTACH]

 

 

Excellent looking instrument. You can undoubtedly get some excellent National Steel Guitar tones from it too.

 

My thought was to essentially build a guitar that has a metal top that resonates, not much differently then a Banjo head does, except it wont need all the head tighteners. I suppose the metal thickness is the key. If I go too thick its no different then a Tele bridge. If I go too thin it provides no support and winds up being a tuning nightmare.

 

Ideally an electrified National would be the best choice for that sound. They do make Piezo biscuit bridge transducers for electrifying one of those.

Using a metal plate may not get me enough metal resonance which is all I'm looking for. I'm not even concerned with how it looks because like I said, its going to be used for recording.

 

I have a Gold Anodized pickguard on one of my strats so I know what mild changes it makes when you have pickups mounted in it. Honestly you wouldn't know the difference between it and a regular pickguard in a blind listening test, especially on a non boat route cavity where only the pickup holes are routes not a huge square cut.

 

I'll likely need to route the area under the bridge and bolt the bridge to the metal sheet. That can be done quite easily with a Nashville TOM because the posts are threaded and I'd only need to add nuts to bolt it in place. Even the ones with bushings wouldn't be that tough. Just drill the holes and the lips on the bushings keep them from dropping through. I could even solder them in place if a Brass or steel top is used.

 

If the cavity is hollow between the bridge and pickups I should get plenty of vibration conductance between the bridge and pickups.

 

The other option might be to leave a thin bridge of wood a few millimeters thick where the bridge mounts. This would provide the stability I need and also act as a biscuit/resonator for the metal plate and send enough vibrations to make the pickups vibrate too.

 

I realize the bulk of the sound comes from the strings and what the strings are connected too, but pickups do vibrate too, especially in a hollowbody.

The plate the pickups is mounted in will have its own unique resonant frequency, just like a drum head does. At high volumes it can be made to vibrate at its own resonant pitch and add all kinds of overtones to the sound.

 

I can even see a dampener being added much like a snare drum uses to deaden the top head. It could use a knob connected to a screw to mechanically dampen the metal plate and reduce the metallic tones resonating back up into the strings.

 

Another thought. If the plate doesn't put enough resonance back up into the strings, then why not capture the resonance from the plate itself.

If a steel plate is used, a magnetic pickup mounted under that plate should produce a signal like it does under the strings. Granted it may be weak because of the minimal vibrations but a high gain pickup matched with lower output pickups under the strings should produce enough metallic tone to blend the two.

 

Of course this might also cause a phase issue because the waves from the strings and the waves from the plate wont be in sync. I know this all too well from trying to combine Piezo contact mics inside an acoustic with a magnetic pickup on the strings. A hollow effect occurs when the phase is off. Maybe having the plate pickup reverse phased might be a fix but that only flips it 180 degrees. Not much help if you're off by 30 or 90 degrees.

 

Where its mounted might cause changes too. Like ripples on a pond the sound vibrations take longer to reach the edges of the pond when a stone is thrown farter away from the shore.

 

Still it might do some very interesting things, especially if I use a stereo output. I can either use separate effects to two different amps or record each pickup direct. Fixing phase issues in a digital recording is kindergarten stuff. Used with an amp, the pickup and plate are essentially a microphone.

 

The plate pickup would essentially be a mic diaphragm too. In a live situation the other instruments would be picked up like any microphone so it wouldn't be of much use in that case. It would produce a feedback loop at low volumes, just like the howl from many electric acoustic guitars played at high volumes. With a pot it could be controlled however, and just enough dialed in to create some cool sounds - if you have the experience to use it like a Hendrix or Santana does when sustaining notes.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I wonder how heavy it would be with a metal top? I had a 70's Applause/Ovation with an aluminum neck and fret board. It was all one piece - solid. It wasn't heavy, because it wasn't aluminum, but it didn't really sing either. I did have the typical cracked top, and it looked like hell, but for some reason it recorded like a dream, but only for cowboy chord type strumming. It sounded just okay in the room but on tape was amazing.

 

 

 

I also had one of those Applause models with the metal fingerboard / frets and the fake "wood" inserts on the back of the neck back when they were new. The biggest drawback of that design was that you could not re-fret the neck if it was ever necessary, and once the plating on the "frets" wore off, the internal metal that was exposed was much softer - I do believe it was aluminum - and once that happened, the neck became unplayable pretty quickly. You had only one option - replace the entire neck.

 

Mine was dropped by a high school girlfriend, and the neck got pretty messed up. I bought an Ovation to replace it, and gave the Applause to another friend of mine, and she had the neck replaced. IIRC, it was just bolted on from inside the bowl. I kind of wish I still had that guitar - not just for the sentimental value, but also because it was a great beach guitar - laminated top, fiberglass back / bowl and a neck that was wood-free. It could withstand temperature changes, salt air and the other environmental challenges of the beach (or mountains) better than a lot of other guitars from that era could.

[uab9253]

 

 

I also had one of those Applause models with the metal fingerboard / frets and the fake "wood" inserts on the back of the neck back when they were new. The biggest drawback of that design was that you could not re-fret the neck if it was ever necessary, and once the plating on the "frets" wore off, the internal metal that was exposed was much softer - I do believe it was aluminum - and once that happened, the neck became unplayable pretty quickly. You had only one option - replace the entire neck.

 

Mine was dropped by a high school girlfriend, and the neck got pretty messed up. I bought an Ovation to replace it, and gave the Applause to another friend of mine, and she had the neck replaced. IIRC, it was just bolted on from inside the bowl. I kind of wish I still had that guitar - not just for the sentimental value, but also because it was a great beach guitar - laminated top, fiberglass back / bowl and a neck that was wood-free. It could withstand temperature changes, salt air and the other environmental challenges of the beach (or mountains) better than a lot of other guitars from that era could.

 

Funny you should say that because the beach is exactly where I used to take it as well. And you're correct about the frets - mine had some serious damage about the 9th fret, looked like someone took a dremel to some of them, but for the open chords it still sounded nice. It was a great IDGAF guitar to toss in the car and take to a campfire.