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12-String Tuning Issue - Danelectro


akpasta

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Hi Folks, I bought a new Danelectro 12SDC electric 12-string and it was fairly unplayable in new condition, so I took it to a local guitar tech to have it "set up." They did a really good job and it's much better but I'm still having trouble with the low G string. Those strings are octave strings, not unisons, so there is a low G and a high G. The low G is a thicker string, the high G is a thinner string. the low G string goes sharp when you fret it between the 1st to about the 10th fret. The higher G string stays in tune so the two sound out of tune to each other.

 

I took the guitar back to the tech for adjustment, and he said the problem comes from when you push down on the string to fret it on the wide lower frets; it causes the string to band and go sharp, because the low G is thicker than the high G, they bend a different amount, and it's not enough to make the high G go sharp, but the low one does. He said the only way to fix the issue is to lower that string as much as possible before it starts buzzing, to minimize the bending of the string when fretting; and that's really all you can do.

 

He lowered it to the point that it just barely buzzes. It made the problem a little better but it's still not gone away. So basically I have to tune the low G string ever so slightly flat, so that when I fret it up the neck it will be in tune with the high G string. This is not ideal.

 

Strangely enough this doesn't happen on any of the other strings.

 

Does anyone know if this is a common problem with 12 string guitars or if I should take it back to the guy and ask him to fix it again?

 

Are there other 12 string brands that don't have this problem?

 

Thank you!!

 

EDITED- My bridge has individual intonation adjusters for each individual string, I can adjust height and distance from the bridge on every string.

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The phemonenon you are talking about is the reason guitar bridges typically have intonation adjustment. From the pic it looks like you don't have independent intonation adjustment for each string in a pair, just for the pair together.

 

Is that so? If it is, your tech is right. The only thing you can do is tweak the action and intonation to find the best compromise.

 

I would also suggest you make sure your nut height is right. If it's too high the intonation on the first few frets will be particularly bad. It's a common cause for "sour" sounding open chords.

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I forgot to clarify, my guitar DOES have the bridge with independent intonation adjustment for each individual string in a pair.

 

Is there something I can do to that string to adjust the intonation? The intonation is "correct," insofar as the pitch of the open string is the same as the harmonic pitch at the 12th fret. Is that how you determine correc intonation?

 

The other thing that the tech did was file down the string path at the nut to get that particular string lowered (that's the only one with a problem, not the whole nut).

 

What else can be done?

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The standard way to "compensate" or "intonate" a string is to adjust the screw that moves the saddle back and forth until the FRETTED 12th fret note is the same as that open string one octave higher. You can either check that with an accurate tuner or compare the 12th fret harmonic (which by definition will be the same note you are fretting) with the fretted note by ear.

 

The amount of compensation required to get the string to play in tune is a function of the core wire diameter, not the overall diameter of the string. The octave G string is probably a small diameter plain string, the primary G might be either a wound string (in which case it will have a very small diameter core) or a plain string, in which case it will be pretty large. In any case, if you have adjustable saddles you should be able to move them until the strings play in tune at the 12th fret.

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Perhaps I'm not being clear.

 

The guitar has a bridge that allows adjustment of each individual string. The instrument has been set up so that all strings are the same note at the 12th fret as they are open. Both G strings are in tune at the 12th fret. They are NOT in tune between frets 1-10 or so, the wider frets, because when you push the string down to fret it, the low G string goes sharp. The guitar tech says I have to live with it because it's not possible to lower the string any more without it fret-buzzing. The guitar tech filed the string seat at the nut to lower that specific string at the nut, and also lowered it a bit at the bridge. He says nothing more can be done, but unfortunately it's still a problem.

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What you said was "The intonation is "correct," insofar as the pitch of the open string is the same as the harmonic pitch at the 12th fret. " That will always be true, the harmonic is by definition twice the frequency of the open string, that is, the octave. When you compensate you make the fretted note the same as the harmonic. If that is what you have and the primary is sharp at each fret (but interestingly other strings are not) then possible causes are tall frets combined with fairly high fretting force (ie you are bending the string as you fret it) and possible string stiffness which causes a phenomena called "inharmonicity". I'm assuming the primary G is an unwound string, try using a wound G which will have less stiffness.

 

There is a system of compensating at both the saddle and nut (the Buzz Feiten system is one variation) that might help altho frankly I've never seen it used on a 12 string . I'm curious how many cents the primary G is sharp at the worst fret (and which fret is that)?

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When I said the harmonic frequency is correct at the 12th I meant that the frequency is the same when you fret the string at the 12th, so I misspoke I guess. The sharpness is coming from fretting the string on the wider frets. It's pretty darn hard to not press the strings down hard when you're playing a 12 string, but it is better if you fret them more lightly so as not to bend that string as much.

 

I don't have figures for how sharp it is and at what fret but I'll check it out and get back to you. Tall frets could have something to do with it I suppose, there isn't a whole lot you can do about that, easily, that is, is there?

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I think the simplest way to fix this, is to intonate the lower G string slightly flat at the 12th fret. If it's in tune at 12th and harmonic, and sharp at say 2nd and 5th fret, then making it flat at the 12th should fix the issue. BUT remember, one of the "joys" of a 12 string, is the slight out of tune it gets getting that big sound with chords.

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Moving the saddle farther from the nut will make a fretted string flatter at a given fret. Moving it closer to the nut will make a fretted string sharper. A lighter touch will help but if that's not readily possible heavier strings will be harder to push down and less likely to be bent sharp. D'Addario makes a 10-46 set for electric 12-string: http://www.stringsandbeyond.com/dexrowo12ste.html. Of course, heavier strings also mean extra tension, which is high enough on a 12-string, and having the guitar set up again. Sorry.

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I would simply like to know how sharp (or flat) each G string plays at the nut, the 6th fret, and the 12th fret. Most good chromatic tuners will tell you how many cents a note if sharp or flat. Audiologists tell us most people can tell 5 cents but not finer. Tune both G's to your tuner, fret them simultaneously at 6 and play each string, write down how many cents it is sharp (it will be a C#/Db), then fret at 12 and write down both.

 

I would also be interested in the string gauges that you are using (just the G's) and whether they are both plain or the is the primary wound? Report back

 

edit to add - I curious if a Danelectro is strung like a Rickenbacker with the octaves in the odd numbered positions or like most other 12 strings with the octaves in the even. That is, on the G course is the octave in the 5th or 6th position? Not that it matters for this discussion but I'm curious

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I have one of these & i'm always surprised how easy it plays for a 12 string. The action & intonation were nearly perfect out of the box on mine & I only needed to raise one string ever so slightly that was a little buzzy...

 

 

photo1_zpsa03a5dda.jpg

 

Each string is individually adjustable, which is not the case on a lot of 12 strings, but nevertheless I've never felt the need to mess with it (Thankfully i'm not cursed with perfect pitch, so if a string is off by a cent or 2 it doesn't make me crazy).

 

I have the guitar at our rehearsal space & will be going there tonight, so if I think of it I'll take a close up photo of the bridge to post.

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That would be very helpful - I would like to see the relative position of the saddles on the G strings. Also, would it be possible for you do do what I asked Akpasta to do - check each G string with a good tuner (ideally one with a needle and marked in cents) at tell us how many cents each string is sharp or flat at the 6th and 12th frets.

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Ok Freeman, the screws on the saddle for the high octave strings, ie: the first thin Low E, then first thin A, etc, the intonation is set by loosening the screw in the middle of the saddle, and pushing/pulling it, much like on a Floyd Rose style bridge. Once you have the intonation, you tighten the screw back down. The lower string uses the strat styles screw in the back of the bridge.

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Hi Freeman,

 

I was going to take a reading last night but i accidentally left my chromatic tuner (boss tu-3) plugged in and the battery died, opps.

 

But I did the exercise anyways. I tuned both G's open to the tuner (there is a less precise tuner on my practice amp). Fret at 6th fret (they are very close, the low G is slightly sharper depending on pressure), fret at 12th fret (they are identical). The issues are with frets 1-5. When you fret the strings with the usual strength of playing, the low G string can bend up to 1/2 step sharp in frequency, almost as if you did a string bend. It's that bad. It's pretty baffling, the only thing I can consider is fret height at this point. The low G string is lowered to the point of almost buzzing.

 

Mine is strung like most 12s, with the odds being the high octaves, and the evens being the low octaves. I did not know that Rick's were the opposite!

 

The bridge is adjustable like a later poster said, the high octave strings have a lock screw and the bridge mechanism moves, the low octave strings have a strat style spring/adjuster screw at the rear of the brdige.

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I'm perplexed by this also. Normally the stretching on the first frets should be so minor that you would never see it on an accurate tuner, much less hear it (I've heard that most of us have a hard time hearing 5 or less cents difference, thats actually quite a lot.

 

There are some other possibilities here - as you know our evenly tempered fret layout makes the G string particularly out of tune in some keys, but I would expect that of both G strings. And the fact that it is the primary G that goes sharp means it might relate to the stiffness of the string - so called inharmonicity, but usually that affects the partials (harmonics, thirds, etc) and most of the time we hear it with the higher partials.

 

How are the nut slots for the G strings? Most people make the bottoms of the slots the same height on a 12 string (in other words, the gap at the first fret to the bottom of the string is the same). If the primary is significantly higher then it would be stretched more, but again, I just can't believe you would hear it.

 

When you get your tuner charged up please do take those measurements - I'd like to know what the open strings, worst fret and 12th are.

 

Also, a long shot is to replace the string - sometimes they are just wonky.

 

Yeah, Ricks are strung bass-ackwards - thats what makes them distintive and Thatsbunk has confirmed the bridge layout

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^^I took a quick photo of the bridge last night. I didn't have a chance to closely check on the intonation though. We have a gig coming up this Saturday & needed to do a run through our setlist. I don't have a high end tuner anyway (just a Korg Pitchblack), but it seems close enough to my ears...

 

IMG_1882_zpsq1mvqbfp.jpg

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^^I took a quick photo of the bridge last night.

 

Thanks Bunk. Its kind of hard to see the relationship between the breaks on each string but it will be interesting to compare with a picture of the OP's bridge. The tuner information would be helpful, but again, the OP is changing his story - instead of being out of tune "... between frets 1-10 or so..." it is now between 1 and 5. As far as I'm concerned this is on hold until I hear his numbers.

 

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I have the same Dano 12. Same same. I like that guitar. I also have a Gibson SG 12 and a Ricky 360-12. Guess which one I prefer?

 

 

 

Yep, the Dano. Easy to play, comfy and gives me the 12-string jangle I'm going for. Last time I had it out I was working on Greg Lake's acoustic version of "Still You Turn Me On". Sweet tune.

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Hi freeman. I have the exact same bridge on my Dano.

 

Again see my last comment to one of your replies. When you push the string down on the 1st-5th fret or so the low G goes sharp from being fretted. Not sure what to do.

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