Question(s) regarding Modes

[McLaughlin85]

Hello all, new member here!

 

Long story short I have been playing guitar on and off since my early high school years. So over 10 years now. While in high school I had an amazing teacher who taught me a lot of stuff that at the time was honestly a bit over my head--and still is! As a result I have some scales burned into my brain that I'm not sure what to do with and I would like to remedy that to the extent that I can. These scales, specifically, are the Major Scale Modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian). I know these scales forward and backward starting with Ionian in the C position (8th fret).

 

If I understand correctly, Modes are basically scales within scales? For instance, Ionian in C Major is the C Major scale starting with C and then next Dorian is the C Major scale as well but starting with D... correct?

 

And I'm guessing that to make full use of these scale patterns I would need to learn them in every position on the fretboard?

 

Please correct me if I have anything wrong.

 

I have more questions but don't want to overload anybody.

 

Thanks!

[JonR]

This is the kind of question that tends to spawn lengthy threads...

 

You have the basic idea right, but the common confusion is between fret patterns and sounds.

Modes, in musical use, are things like keys, but different.

So, mixolydian mode sounds like the major key except it has a b7.

Dorian mode sounds like the minor key except it has a major 6th.

So although you learn that D dorian is "C major scale starting on D", that's only a way of deriving the notes. D dorian mode is not "in the key of C major". It's "in the key of D (minor)".

Consequently, patterns for the C major scale are all also patterns for any of its 7 modes - all of them. The scale runs all over the neck, and the patterns you break it down to are more or less arbitrary: how many frets can you cover from one position? So don't attach any importance to mode names for the patterns - they have no bearing whatsoever on modes as sounds.

It's similar to the difference between C major and A minor: they are "relative" keys: same 7 notes, different keynote. You wouldn't think either one is defined by, or limited to, a pattern in one neck position.

Likewise, D dorian and G mixolydian are "relative" modes. Same notes, different keynote.

You wouldn't say the key of A minor was "in the key of C". Same for the other modes of those notes.

And the keynote doesn't have to be either the starting note or lowest note, in music itself. That's just the way we write them out, not the way we play them.

 

Best introduction to modes is to listen to a few bona fide modal tunes:

Oye Como Va (Santana) = A dorian mode

So What (Miles Davis) = D dorian mode

Heroes (David Bowie) = D mixolydian mode

Tomorrow Never Knows (Beatles) = C mixolydian mode

Flying in a Blue Dream (Joe Satriani) = C lydian mode (with diversions into Ab lydian, F lydian and G lydian)

Losing My Religion (REM) = A aeolian mode

Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun (Pink Floyd) = E phrygian (with a move into A phrygian)

 

Mixolydian is an extremely common sound in rock, although it's often combined with the parallel major key. I.e., you'll commonly find major key songs which have a bVII chord somewhere. (D in key of E, or F in key of G). That's a mixolydian effect, although the song might also have the usual major V chord in it too.

The important thing is not to describe it as the relative major.

E.g., Oye Como Va uses the same notes as the G major scale; but it's obviously not "in the key of" G major. It's keynote is A, and key chord is Am. The other chord is D7, which is what makes it A dorian, and not the A "minor key" (which would have Dm).

[McLaughlin85]

Very helpful explanation! However I think the part where I'm totally confused is here:

 

So don't attach any importance to mode names for the patterns - they have no bearing whatsoever on modes as sounds.

 

I've learned the scales, or patterns rather, like this: Start with Ionian on the 8th fret, then Dorian starts two frets up on the 10th fret, Phrygian two frets up on the 12th fret, Lydian on 1st fret, Mixolydian on 3rd fret, Aeolian on 5th fret and then Locrian on the 7th fret.

 

I completely associate each pattern with its name. I shouldn't be doing that?

 

Again thank you so much for your help.

 

[Virgman]

Let me ask you. What kind of music do you like to play?

 

Are you playing pentatonic based solos?

 

If so, take a look at this thread of mine and the solo and transcription contain therein.

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31176043-donald-kinsey-solo-born-under-a-bad-sign-albert-king-band

 

Do you need modes to play like this? Do you need modes period if you are not playing modal music?

[McLaughlin85]

Let me ask you. What kind of music do you like to play?

 

Are you playing pentatonic based solos?

 

If so, take a look at this thread of mine and the solo and transcription contain therein.

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31176043-donald-kinsey-solo-born-under-a-bad-sign-albert-king-band

 

Do you need modes to play like this? Do you need modes period if you are not playing modal music?

I think these questions that you pose might be more important now that I really am forced to think about it.

 

Maybe I don't even need modes at all. Based on all of my paperwork leftover from lessons years ago I just started practicing this stuff again lately. I'm beginning to think it's all too far above my current skill level.

 

But to answer your questions, for fun I just like to play around the pentatonic scale in blues and rock based stuff. I guess I just wanted to attempt to take it to the next level (i.e. make it more complicated than it needs to be!).

[McLaughlin85]

Furthermore, I guess there is a HUGE disconnect between the music I mostly listen to and currently enjoy and my actual skill level on the instrument not being anywhere near such a level.

[Virgman]

Furthermore, I guess there is a HUGE disconnect between the music I mostly listen to and currently enjoy and my actual skill level on the instrument not being anywhere near such a level.

 

I like to play blues and rock the most although I have spent considerable time playing jazz which is a heckuva lot more complicated. However, from a practical standpoint of what is useful in modern popular guitar, jazz is not relevant.

 

Blues based, pentatonic soloing is way more useful. It's vital.

 

Modal playing is used in jazz and even then only in certain circumstances.

 

What I think you are really referring to is the major scale, which can be played anywhere on the fretboard since the same notes are all over except sometimes in different octaves, similar to the different pentatonic boxes.

 

Anyway, my suggestion, based on the music you play, is to forget about modes. A waste of time.

 

[McLaughlin85]

Thanks to you both for the help!

[1001gear]

Or learn modes as melodic templates. Too many guitar "soloists" fail because there's no variety in their playing. They repeatedly stick the same fingerings (I distinguish between those and actual musical motifs) in the same melodic/harmonic orientations.

 

Absorbing the lopsided tonalities of your basic modes will help bring interest to your noodlings. Take McLaughlin or Scott Henderson. Both heavy on the minor third fingerings but brilliant in their ways of getting in and out of harmonic treachery. Sure they have chops but what's driving them is a highly developed melodic sense. Wrong notes don't fool 'em. They seek 'em out and make licks. And Bam. There's your modal associations. Incidental or what, there they are for your analysis, amazement, indignation ... whatever.

 

The good part is you don't need chops to learn melody. Play nursery tunes with wrong notes - see what grabs your ear. No rules.

[JonR]

Very helpful explanation! However I think the part where I'm totally confused is here:

 

 

 

I've learned the scales, or patterns rather, like this: Start with Ionian on the 8th fret, then Dorian starts two frets up on the 10th fret, Phrygian two frets up on the 12th fret, Lydian on 1st fret, Mixolydian on 3rd fret, Aeolian on 5th fret and then Locrian on the 7th fret.

 

I completely associate each pattern with its name. I shouldn't be doing that?

Well, it's OK as long as you don't think you need to use those patterns to get a specific modal sound.

It's useful to be able to call the patterns something, and there's no naming system I'm aware of that doesn't have some potential ambiguity built in. (Eg, the CAGED system also gives names to shapes that are different from the sounds.)

The mode names for the fret patterns come from taking the lowest note as the root, which is practical in one sense. (It's quite a good memory aid for which notes of a major scale make modal roots.)

 

You need to be aware that (eg) that "dorian" pattern (10th fret) can be used on any chord in the key of C major, and also in a tune in any mode of that scale. You might have an Am chord in key of C; you might have a piece in E phrygian mode. You can stil use that so-called "dorian" pattern - in fact you can use any of the 7 "modal" patterns - precisely because they are not, in themselves, modal.

So the question is: in what sense is that 10th fret pattern "dorian" at all? Answer: in no sense, other than that its lowest note is D (which is neither here nor there, soundwise).

As I say, if you're OK with that kind of double-think (and it doesn't bother me too much, btw), then all is fine.

 

One of the problems the mode-name system causes is when people also discover the concept of modal sounds (which are real things).Two misunderstandings can then arise:

1. You need to play a "dorian" pattern to get a dorian sound

2. You can impose a "dorian" sound or mood at any time in a chord progression, either by using that dorian pattern, or simply focussing on the "dorian" root note.

 

Both are wrong.

 

1. A dorian sound comes from using a minor scale with a major 6th step. The keynote needs to be established. Eg, for D dorian we need to hear D as keynote. Easiest way is just to have a repeated bass "pedal" D, or a Dm chord vamp. Then you play the C major scale (any pattern, any order) over it. Of course, it will also help if you make D notes the focus of your phrases - especially the final notes. But it's the combination of scale and perceived keynote that makes the modal sound.

 

2. In existing chord progressions - eg if you're improvising over a given song - the "modes" are already written into the sequence. In a typical sequence in a major or minor key, modes are not even relevant.

Eg., take a C-G-Am-F progression. Technically you could analyse each chord-scale as C ionian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, F lydian. But in fact the whole thing is C major (C ionian), and the chords are I-V-vi-IV in that mode (key).

IOW, although we hear each chord as its own root identity, all of them are subject to the overall "C" centre. It would sound unfinished if we were to stop on any chord other than C. So modal interpretations not only make it too complicated, they serve no purpose anyway; they tell us nothing of any use.

 

Let's say our (blamelessly) ignorant beginner decides he want to impose a "phrygian" mood (because he's heard that phrygian is a cool "dark" mode). He has learned that starting the C major scale on E is "E phrygian mode". So he finds a phrygian pattern (which will be on 12th fret, right?) and starts improvising.

He'll find that everything sounds fine - no wrong notes. But what he is not getting is any kind of phrygian sound or mood. What he is getting is the sound of C major with an emphasis on the 3rd (E). The E is also the 6th on G, 5th on Am and maj7 on F. All these sounds are fine - but they are not modal, and definitely not phrygian.

The reason for choosing different fret patterns, in different neck regions, is not for any modal purpose. It's only a matter of how high or low you want to play. And maybe of how easy it is to finger the chord tones you need, or play a particular phrase.

Accenting the E note on a C major chord is a nice sound. But it isn't phrygian. It's just accenting the 3rd (of Ionian, if the key is C).

 

True E phrygian mode comes from playing the C major scale over an Em chord - esp that sound of the F note resolving down to the E root. (Listen to that Floyd track.)

 

In short, modes are tools for composition. They are not tools for improvisation (on existing compositions).

 

 

I totally agree with Virgman. Modes are probably of no use to you right now.

[JonR]

I think these questions that you pose might be more important now that I really am forced to think about it.

 

Maybe I don't even need modes at all. Based on all of my paperwork leftover from lessons years ago I just started practicing this stuff again lately. I'm beginning to think it's all too far above my current skill level.

 

But to answer your questions, for fun I just like to play around the pentatonic scale in blues and rock based stuff. I guess I just wanted to attempt to take it to the next level (i.e. make it more complicated than it needs to be!).

IMO, the "next level" is to think about chords and chord tones when you solo.

Eg, if you are playing on a blues in A, using the A minor pentatonic scale, start thinking about how the scale notes relate to the notes in each chord.

Find shapes for each chord in the same position as the scale patterns you are using. (Any major chord can be found in 5 different shapes in 5 positions within a 12-fret space.)

You'll notice that some chord tones are in the scale, some are not. You'll notice (eg) that the A chord has a C# in it, while the scale has a C. So - you can slide or bend the C up to C# - resolve it to the chord tone.

This is how your soloing can be become much more interesting and musical - even within a blues/rock context.

(B B King has a great lesson on youtube about resolving phrases in key of G.)

 

In fact, even in the most complicated jazz, chord tones are always your guide. Start learning chords in more depth: finding all the possible shapes everywhere for the chords you already know; and then how to add 7ths, 9ths, etc to the basic triad shapes.

The more you know chords, the less you need to think about (or memorise) scales

[JonR]

My main tip is always to work from the music to the theory, and not vice versa.

I.e., don't read about some theoretical concept (whether it's modes, keys, whatever) and then try and apply it.

Start from the music, and if you don't understand it, or if you're curious about how it's put together - that's when you ask theory questions (which may or may not help, btw ).

 

Naturally, if you understand the music as much as you need to - like a blues player understands the blues - you don't need to ask theory questions at all. You just play. You've learned all you need to know by listening and copying.

 

You're maybe a little different in that you're listening to (and wanting to be able to play) music that you don't yet understand - that you feel is above your level.

There's partly a technical skill question (you don't know your instrument well enough, or can't play as fast or smoothly as you want); easy answer there - just practice more! (Learn your fretboard, practise scales and chord changing.)

But partly also a question that might have a theory answer, which is: how does this music work? What are those chords, and why? But the theory still has to arise from the music. The question is: "what concepts might help me understand this music?" Not: "what kind of music can I make from these concepts?"

 

The basic learning principle in music is: LISTEN AND COPY.

If the music's too complicated for that, find some simpler music; or slow the complicated stuff down, break it down in some way. Theory is really only labels for what you're hearing, that help you talk about it, and maybe help you organise it in your mind. That's good, of course, but it doesn't help you play; that's all about fingers and ears.

 

I totally agree with 1001gear that melody is key - and you don't need chops for that. You just need a melodic sensibility. And where does that come from? Listening to lots of melodies (including riffs and licks) and copying them! It's about building a vocabulary. And because it's your own "voice" you're developing, you can just copy the stuff you like - not what anyone else tells you is cool. Certain phrases will grab you; those are the ones to learn - and remembering to learn the chord context too. Melody rarely exists in isolation (although it can); usually it's closely linked to chord progressions, and is always in a kind of dialogue with the chords.

[McLaughlin85]

An immensely helpful series of posts! Many thanks to everyone.

[AJ6stringsting]

I loved what Frank Zappa said, " Learn the rule book, then throw it away"

Theory / technique and feel playing is a rush unto itself and not the end all be all. Back in the 1980's, I was total technique freak, played 128th notes effortlessly because of playing 24/7 : gigging, teaching and studying theory. I was at a gig opening for a band called Junk Yard at the Waters club in San Pedro and there was this Blues guy ( the act that followed us), that blew me away with his "feel playing", the guy was killing me with his phrasing, taste, pauses and delivery. I learned that night that theory and technique isn't everything or you can say that guy made me run back full circle. Vigman, you said it all. Not knock this discussion here ..... I'm still an eternal student !!!!