modes and keys question

[dandy505]

I think I almost have this modes thing figured out. Answering this one question may provide me with the final ah-ha...

 

Let's say I want to write music in the key of C Major. Could this potentially be written as D DORIAN, E PHRYGIAN, C IONIAN, A AEOLIAN, G MIXOLYDIAN, F LYDIAN, or B LOCRIAN?

I worked out those modes with the Keys so all the notes stay natural. Or am I confused with how modes work?

 

If the answer is yes;that is correct, then this...

Then the placement of the chords change for each mode (which is what changes the mood of the music?

and...

Since all the notes are identical, then regardless of which mode the music is written in, one would only have to know the major scale in C to improvise?

 

thanks, someone can really unravel a key piece of understanding for me

[nylon rock]

Your questions are difficult to decifer.

 

Type in Modes in the search button and read everything you can find.

 

Lots of info on modes here in the Lesson Loft. Some of it very well laid out, especially Poparad's stuff. You'll see.

 

Welcome to Harmony Central.

[FlogRock]

Originally posted by dandy505 I think I almost have this modes thing figured out. Answering this one question may provide me with the final ah-ha... Let's say I want to write music in the key of C Major. Could this potentially be written as D DORIAN, E PHRYGIAN, C IONIAN, A AEOLIAN, G MIXOLYDIAN, F LYDIAN, or B LOCRIAN? I worked out those modes with the Keys so all the notes stay natural. Or am I confused with how modes work? If the answer is yes;that is correct, then this... Then the placement of the chords change for each mode (which is what changes the mood of the music? and... Since all the notes are identical, then regardless of which mode the music is written in, one would only have to know the major scale in C to improvise? thanks, someone can really unravel a key piece of understanding for me

 

The keys of C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian etc have exactly the same set of notes, you're right about that. However, there's more to keys than just the set of notes. For instance, I'm sure you know some songs that are clearly in C major, and some that are clearly in A minor. Even though they have the same set of notes, there's a whole set of typical chord progressions and typical melodic fragments (or licks, for the guitarist) that belong to the key, and they are mostly different for all these seven modes you listed. For instance, if you see the chords G7 C next to eachother, chances are the key is C, not A minor. It's also these typical chord progressions and melodies that set the moods.

 

Btw, some modes are more artificial than others, in particular B locrian: it's almost impossible to write a melody/chord progression with these seven notes that makes B the tonal center. I don't know any song written in locrian. Lydian is quite rare too.

 

About your last question: if you can find the notes of the 12 major scales on your fretboard, then theoretically you can improvise over any modal progression. However, in practice it does not work like that, for the same reason. When improvising in A minor, you should play different licks/melodies than in C major. Just knowing the notes out of the scale is the first step, but you should also know what roles these notes play (e.g. which note is the tonal center, c resp. a).

 

Oh, and welcome.

[dandy505]

I guess I want to simplify my question. I grab a sheet of music and the key signature shows no sharps or flats. This means it could be C Ionian. I know "Greensleeves" was written in A minor (A Aeolian) based on the chord structure but the key signature also shows no sharps or flats. So there are two modes for music written with no sharps or flats. Are there any other possible scales/modes for music with no sharps or flats; for example what about E Phrygian?

 

otherwise, let me forward this question instead. Let's say a piece of music is determined to be written in D Dorian. Would the key signature on the music show 2 sharps (for key of D) or none because all of the notes are natural?

 

thanks again

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by dandy505 I guess I want to simplify my question. I grab a sheet of music and the key signature shows no sharps or flats. This means it could be C Ionian. I know "Greensleeves" was written in A minor (A Aeolian) based on the chord structure but the key signature also shows no sharps or flats. So there are two modes for music written with no sharps or flats. Are there any other possible scales/modes for music with no sharps or flats; for example what about E Phrygian? If there are no sharps or flats, then it's safe to assume C major or A minor. Modes are not quite the same as keys; we don't have mode signatures. (but see below) otherwise, let me forward this question instead. Let's say a piece of music is determined to be written in D Dorian. Would the key signature on the music show 2 sharps (for key of D) or none because all of the notes are natural? thanks again

 

Modes fall into two groups: major-like (Ionian {'major'}, Lydian, Mixolydian) and minor-like (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian). Locrian is a special case, and honestly if I explained why/how, I'd probably confuse you. So, we'll just leave Locrian out of this.

 

In your example, D Dorian, you've got a minor-like mode with D as its tonal center. In common practice, then, the key signature will be that of D minor (one flat), to indicate the tonal center as well as the gender (major or minor, in this case minor).

 

If, however, a piece was D Lydian, you'd have a major-like mode with a tonal center of D, and thus the key signature of D major would be used (two sharps).

[Poparad]

 

Originally posted by dandy505 otherwise, let me forward this question instead. Let's say a piece of music is determined to be written in D Dorian. Would the key signature on the music show 2 sharps (for key of D) or none because all of the notes are natural?

 

 

When something is actually in a modal key (like Miles Davis' "So What") then it is almost always indicated at the beginning of the piece. Any chart for "So What" will have no sharps or flats in the key, and have written at the beginning "D Dorian." If there is not modal indication like that, then it's safe to assume it's either just simply major or minor.

[ThomasD]

 

Originally posted by dandy505 I guess I want to simplify my question. I grab a sheet of music and the key signature shows no sharps or flats. This means it could be C Ionian. I know "Greensleeves" was written in A minor (A Aeolian) based on the chord structure but the key signature also shows no sharps or flats. So there are two modes for music written with no sharps or flats. Are there any other possible scales/modes for music with no sharps or flats; for example what about E Phrygian? otherwise, let me forward this question instead. Let's say a piece of music is determined to be written in D Dorian. Would the key signature on the music show 2 sharps (for key of D) or none because all of the notes are natural? thanks again

 

 

Congratulations, you have also discovered minors and relative majors (or majors and relative minors)

 

i.e. Aminor is the relative minor of Cmajor, so they share the same key signature.

 

Beyond that, I have always inerpreted key signatures as how they relate to the key of C, so D dorian should not indicate the presence of any sharps or flats since it shares the same notes as Cmajor.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by dandy505 I think I almost have this modes thing figured out. Answering this one question may provide me with the final ah-ha... Let's say I want to write music in the key of C Major. Could this potentially be written as D DORIAN, E PHRYGIAN, C IONIAN, A AEOLIAN, G MIXOLYDIAN, F LYDIAN, or B LOCRIAN? I worked out those modes with the Keys so all the notes stay natural. Or am I confused with how modes work?

The answer is yes. Although Locroian, which is lacking the pure fifth is not stable to support a progression. You could potentially write a piece in any of the other six modes using it's tonic as the tonal center.

Originally posted by dandy505 If the answer is yes;that is correct, then this... Then the placement of the chords change for each mode (which is what changes the mood of the music? and... Since all the notes are identical, then regardless of which mode the music is written in, one would only have to know the major scale in C to improvise?

Exactly. You cannot play in D Dorian without knowing C Major. The only difference between D Dorian and C Major is that in D Dorian, D is the Tonic, F is the Third, A is the Fifth, C is the Seventh, E is the nineth and G is the Eleventh and B is the Thriteenth. So the notes (Although the same ) all mean something different.

[1boogieman]

Hello - I suggest you look at Major and minor scales. The distance betwwen the notes - scale patterns - will give you key signatures. From there you can use the "mode" knowledge you have figured out.

What's cool about the scale approach is you will also know what chords work together in a key. For more, dive into understanding "triads".