Members PatrickDavid Posted August 13, 2011 Members Share Posted August 13, 2011 Hey guys! Before i get into a big series on writing, soloing and technique practice we need to do a bit more theory to conquer the fretboard. This video is really important. The knowledge builds from this video into understanding how every chord works. Which then in turn leads to understanding what notes are under your fingers anywhere on the neck! [video=youtube;DCHidRMDf7c] It's some very important theory, so grab a pen, paper and some snacks! Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sgt mukuzi Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 my issue with this is 99% of music theory concentrates on this stuff. triads, its really really easy to understand triads. why not just explain chords, not triads. then move onto extended chords. people get confused by sevenths because they are left out of the basic explanation. sevenths are not part of the triad. but in my opinion a triad is not a chord, a chord needs a seventh to be a chord. why talk about a major chord without the seventh? there is no major chord without the seventh. its just one, three and five. could be dominant? could be major, it can even be augmented, (3, #5, M7) the augmented triad is acceptable without a seventh obviously but many things happen when a seventh is added to an augmented triad. triads should be covered in one sentence in my opinion. the seventh is extremely important to understanding chords, people get confused because its ignored until later. why wait, people are not that thick also in my opinion. when you talk about minor and major you are talking about the third only, the concept of rearranging major scales to get every other permutation could get confusing, its really an old way to look at music theory in my opinion. the major scale has nothing to do with a diminished concept, or an augmented concept, sure logic can link them but once these concepts are understood then no relation is needed between the chords. why remove the sixth and seventh? they should be included so the student can understand the whole concept from the start. I was taught that there are only four chords: major, augmented, minor and diminished. i would add dominant to that list. i was also taught to dispense with the fifth unless its part of the chord, like a diminished or augmented chord. the fifth is actually used in these chords. the fifth is just added to the major, minor and dominant chord or triad in this case. i like to think in a different way, i don't think its useful teaching 12 keys anymore, mentioning 11th and 9ths is useless at this stage because you haven't said what they are. you have removed them from the explanation. in my opinion, the major scale is just one scale, sure you can get a few minor chords out of it but classically trained guys have a hard time explaining where diminished and augmented chords come from. in my opinion there is no diminished chord in a major scale and we all know there is no augmented chord. so why do we use the major scale to teach music? why use it to teach chords that aren't a part of it? this is why so many people have a hard time understanding music theory, its totally illogical. if we taught: major; this is where the major chord comes from, two major chords, one dominant and the rest minor chords all related to the major chord. Minor: this is where the minor chord comes from... look at all the different ones, some aren't related to a major chord. augmented scale, this is where the augmented chord comes from, hey look at all those extended dominants and diminished chords... diminished scale: this is where the diminished chord comes from. don't look at it for too long. this to me is a basic way to relate chords, chord scale relationships. not the "logical" way of changing every note is a scale to explain a chord that isn't related to it. i know i will get hated even more for saying this but i`m just so over the whole redundant major scale concept. its too basic a concept to thoroughly explain what is going on and far too many people think that's all there is to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PatrickDavid Posted August 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 my issue with this is 99% of music theory concentrates on this stuff. triads, its really really easy to understand triads. why not just explain chords, not triads. then move onto extended chords. people get confused by sevenths because they are left out of the basic explanation. sevenths are not part of the triad. but in my opinion a triad is not a chord, a chord needs a seventh to be a chord.why talk about a major chord without the seventh? there is no major chord without the seventh. its just one, three and five. could be dominant? could be major, it can even be augmented, (3, #5, M7)the augmented triad is acceptable without a seventh obviously but many things happen when a seventh is added to an augmented triad. triads should be covered in one sentence in my opinion. the seventh is extremely important to understanding chords, people get confused because its ignored until later. why wait, people are not that thick also in my opinion. when you talk about minor and major you are talking about the third only, the concept of rearranging major scales to get every other permutation could get confusing, its really an old way to look at music theory in my opinion. the major scale has nothing to do with a diminished concept, or an augmented concept, sure logic can link them but once these concepts are understood then no relation is needed between the chords.why remove the sixth and seventh? they should be included so the student can understand the whole concept from the start. I was taught that there are only four chords: major, augmented, minor and diminished. i would add dominant to that list.i was also taught to dispense with the fifth unless its part of the chord, like a diminished or augmented chord. the fifth is actually used in these chords. the fifth is just added to the major, minor and dominant chord or triad in this case. i like to think in a different way, i don't think its useful teaching 12 keys anymore, mentioning 11th and 9ths is useless at this stage because you haven't said what they are. you have removed them from the explanation. in my opinion, the major scale is just one scale, sure you can get a few minor chords out of it but classically trained guys have a hard time explaining where diminished and augmented chords come from. in my opinion there is no diminished chord in a major scale and we all know there is no augmented chord. so why do we use the major scale to teach music? why use it to teach chords that aren't a part of it? this is why so many people have a hard time understanding music theory, its totally illogical.if we taught: major; this is where the major chord comes from, two major chords, one dominant and the rest minor chords all related to the major chord.Minor: this is where the minor chord comes from... look at all the different ones, some aren't related to a major chord.augmented scale, this is where the augmented chord comes from, hey look at all those extended dominants and diminished chords...diminished scale: this is where the diminished chord comes from. don't look at it for too long. this to me is a basic way to relate chords, chord scale relationships. not the "logical" way of changing every note is a scale to explain a chord that isn't related to it.i know i will get hated even more for saying this but i`m just so over the whole redundant major scale concept. its too basic a concept to thoroughly explain what is going on and far too many people think that's all there is to it. Hey sgt, Just replying so you didn't think I'm forgetting about you!Certainly no hating here! I just need to organise your above post in order to make sure i reply to all of it,Will reply later tonight buddy, All the best, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mcmurray Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 but in my opinion a triad is not a chord, a chord needs a seventh to be a chord. No offence, but this statement is 110% incorrect. Triads are the basis of western harmony. There is a huge amount of music that makes use of nothing but triads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PatrickDavid Posted August 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 Hey sgt, First of all thankyou for taking the time to write your response.I broke down your response in to what i thought was appropriate points, but if i missed anything i apologize. 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PatrickDavid Posted August 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 No offence, but this statement is 110% incorrect.Triads are the basis of western harmony. There is a huge amount of music that makes use of nothing but triads. Thx for confirming that. I got stuck at 100% confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeremy_green Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 A triad is just a name for any three notes together. It has nothing to do with the notes involved. So you could have a 5th,7th,11th and be a "triad". I mean sure, most commonly it is root position. But a blanket statement like "a triad is not a chord" seems off to me. Geez, a LARGE collection of music (hard rock) features mostly power-chords which are only a root and fifth. To say there is no implied major or minor is completely incorrect. No diminished chord in the major scale? Are you classifying it as dominant then? I do see it (diminished) as more of a function ... but it certainly is a chord by any theory. Not picking on you sgt, I mean no disrespect because I know you know your stuff. But typically the audience for this type of lesson isn't ready for advanced application stuff. No it isn't difficult - but neither is building a major scale, yet a HUGE amount of players struggle with it. Hell, MANY players don't even know what root, 3rd and 5th even mean! I do see and understand your stand, and I don't think you are wrong. But some of your statements could send a 'younger' player reeling as they try to grip this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JonnyPac Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 Wow. It's a bummer when music theory gets so confusing! KISS, guys! Here's how I "see" triads on the guitar. My students rally enjoy learning them this way. I teach them to grip three notes at a time and then invert them up and down within the diagonal sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JonnyPac Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 This takes that same info and shows the "barre" aka "CAGED" positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JonnyPac Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 PD, the video is pretty straight forward theory. I like to teach were the triads naturally/functionally occur in scales and keys. "Flattening" things arbitrarily can confuse some people. Good stuff though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 I usually show the student the sus chords in between the maj/min and the dim/aug, since it comprehensively stresses/completes the importance of the 3rds before moving onto the 5ths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sgt mukuzi Posted August 15, 2011 Members Share Posted August 15, 2011 Hi Pat. thank you for the reply, I`m glad you have taken the time to break up my rant. i find the rant to be a great way to open up a discussion, i`m glad it was taken as it was. you are right about the videos. My son has watched them in the past and he has found them extremely helpful. personally, I also like the way you teach. in regards to the C Major scale: I believe there are about three augmented chords and about two or three diminished chords in the key of C. if i remember correctly: the raised fifth has a diminished and augmented chord/triad attached to it, in the key of C. G#, C and E = C+ or E+ G#, B and D = B dim or D dim the flattened 3rd also has an augmented and diminished chord attached to it, in C. Eb, G and B = G+ or B+ Eb, C and A = A dim or C dim the flattened 9 has an augmented chord attached to it Db, F and A so, in my opinion we have used every note in C major except the flat seven (Bb) and the flat five (F#) the Bb and F# don't have augmented or diminished chords attached to them in the key of C. in other keys they do but not in C. (also in my opinion) this basic concept is the foundation of 12 tone harmony. the tritone and flat seven over the major scale create an interesting harmonic effect on the major scale (the effect of a change in its key). in the key of C the first dominant chord one would normally encounter is the G7 chord, the F# (the tritone of C) is the last note one would use over a G7 chord. the Bb is the last note one would use over a C major chord. by last note, i mean if you add these note to the chord the chord function and key changes along with the chord name. in both cases the two notes that do not have augmented or diminished triads attached to them in the key of C fundamentally change the two strongest tonalities in the key of C. the C major chord and the G dominant chord. this is the way i need to think of the added augmented and diminished chords in the key of C. I don't really count the B in the key of C as diminished and i believe its one reason people get confused about major scale harmony. I know I did, I didn't accept that B was diminished, because it isn't. in my opinion for B to be diminished, it has to have the raised fifth and once it has the raised fifth in the key of C you also get an augmented chord in the key of C. as well as many other root position chords/triads in C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benzem Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 my issue with this is 99% of music theory concentrates on this stuff. triads, its really really easy to understand triads. why not just explain chords, not triads. then move onto extended chords. people get confused by sevenths because they are left out of the basic explanation. sevenths are not part of the triad. but in my opinion a triad is not a chord, a chord needs a seventh to be a chord.why talk about a major chord without the seventh? there is no major chord without the seventh. its just one, three and five. could be dominant? could be major, it can even be augmented, (3, #5, M7)the augmented triad is acceptable without a seventh obviously but many things happen when a seventh is added to an augmented triad. triads should be covered in one sentence in my opinion. the seventh is extremely important to understanding chords, people get confused because its ignored until later. why wait, people are not that thick also in my opinion. when you talk about minor and major you are talking about the third only, the concept of rearranging major scales to get every other permutation could get confusing, its really an old way to look at music theory in my opinion. the major scale has nothing to do with a diminished concept, or an augmented concept, sure logic can link them but once these concepts are understood then no relation is needed between the chords.why remove the sixth and seventh? they should be included so the student can understand the whole concept from the start. I was taught that there are only four chords: major, augmented, minor and diminished. i would add dominant to that list.i was also taught to dispense with the fifth unless its part of the chord, like a diminished or augmented chord. the fifth is actually used in these chords. the fifth is just added to the major, minor and dominant chord or triad in this case. i like to think in a different way, i don't think its useful teaching 12 keys anymore, mentioning 11th and 9ths is useless at this stage because you haven't said what they are. you have removed them from the explanation. in my opinion, the major scale is just one scale, sure you can get a few minor chords out of it but classically trained guys have a hard time explaining where diminished and augmented chords come from. in my opinion there is no diminished chord in a major scale and we all know there is no augmented chord. so why do we use the major scale to teach music? why use it to teach chords that aren't a part of it? this is why so many people have a hard time understanding music theory, its totally illogical.if we taught: major; this is where the major chord comes from, two major chords, one dominant and the rest minor chords all related to the major chord.Minor: this is where the minor chord comes from... look at all the different ones, some aren't related to a major chord.augmented scale, this is where the augmented chord comes from, hey look at all those extended dominants and diminished chords...diminished scale: this is where the diminished chord comes from. don't look at it for too long. this to me is a basic way to relate chords, chord scale relationships. not the "logical" way of changing every note is a scale to explain a chord that isn't related to it.i know i will get hated even more for saying this but i`m just so over the whole redundant major scale concept. its too basic a concept to thoroughly explain what is going on and far too many people think that's all there is to it. Sorry I admit I didn't read all of this.. But you lost me early on with the 7th thing. Where did you get this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeremy_green Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 in regards to the C Major scale: I believe there are about three augmented chords and about two or three diminished chords in the key of C. Not meaning to pick a fight but are you using Lydian Chromatic concepts here or something? I really have little idea what you are getting at.Comments like the one I quoted above, are extremely misleading for lesser studied players.... hell for studied players! Other comments like "The B isn't diminished in the key of C" are flat out misleading and incorrect. I appreciate the whole wanting to swim upstream thing ... but for anyone to take this seriously, you need to explain what you are getting at. It really isn't clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members polishpaul Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 ^^^^^ I sense danger! Because the B chord in C isn't diminished - it's half-diminished. Where shall we go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members polishpaul Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 Maybe a rant from me? Theory? Well, it won't help you make your first million. Great success, musically, comes from great imagination, in how to use, explore and develop sound in a musical way. Using your ears and experimentation are the tools. Notation? That's how the theorists put such imagination into visual form. It comes after the result. I have a good grasp of theory, and I still play badly. I am working on my imagination now. Short rant, but there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeremy_green Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 Because the B chord in C isn't diminished - it's half-diminished. I hear ya Paul! This statement is however inaccurate. The half-diminished is a common sub, but the VII chord is diminished in formal theory teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members polishpaul Posted August 16, 2011 Members Share Posted August 16, 2011 I hear ya Paul! This statement is however inaccurate. The half-diminished is a common sub, but the VII chord is diminished in formal theory teachings. You are right. I've just googled around, and been informed that the B diminished chord is B D F, and that the B half-diminished chord is.....B D F. Something amiss. It seems the m7b5 is B D F A, which makes sense to me. But the diminished/half-diminished issue? The addition of the seventh, A, seems to make it half-diminished, suddenly. I've always known this chord was going to be trouble, ever since I spotted it in a dark alley with it's hat tipped low and mumbling to itself about what it wanted to do with those "fancy, sweet chords". Clarification appreciated, though I still plan to focus on my musical imagination . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benzem Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sgt mukuzi Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 this is by far the high point of the lesson loft for me so far. I do use the Lydian Chromatic Concept and Schoenberg's Regions theory kind of mashed together. I came up with the Diminished and Augmented chords idea in regards to the extended Major scale, I couldn't understand why/how George Russell believed that the sharp 5 and the flat 3 are the two most closely related tones to a major scales tonality. if a Diminished chord is made up of Root, b3, b5 and six then the B (Dim) in the key of C major needs to be altered to get the full chord. B, D, F and Ab. this is why i made the point about triads and chords, it is incorrect or misleading to use each term interchangeably in my opinion. you could say there is a diminished triad starting on the seventh degree of a major scale but to me the word "chord" implies a harmonic function. a triad really doesn't have a harmonic function because it is to ambiguous. the Eb and Ab are closely related to C major because once you add these two tones a host of new chords are accessible without having to alter any other tones in the scale. if you add the Bb or F# to C major you also have to alter other notes in C Major to access other chords, therefore i say these other chords are not part of C Major they are part of another key. i`m not trying to be difficult but this stuff seems obvious to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benzem Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 this is by far the high point of the lesson loft for me so far. I do use the Lydian Chromatic Concept and Schoenberg's Regions theory kind of mashed together. I came up with the Diminished and Augmented chords idea in regards to the extended Major scale, I couldn't understand why/how George Russell believed that the sharp 5 and the flat 3 are the two most closely related tones to a major scales tonality. if a Diminished chord is made up of Root, b3, b5 and six then the B (Dim) in the key of C major needs to be altered to get the full chord. B, D, F and Ab.this is why i made the point about triads and chords, it is incorrect or misleading to use each term interchangeably in my opinion.you could say there is a diminished triad starting on the seventh degree of a major scale but to me the word "chord" implies a harmonic function. a triad really doesn't have a harmonic function because it is to ambiguous.the Eb and Ab are closely related to C major because once you add these two tones a host of new chords are accessible without having to alter any other tones in the scale. if you add the Bb or F# to C major you also have to alter other notes in C Major to access other chords, therefore i say these other chords are not part of C Major they are part of another key. i`m not trying to be difficult but this stuff seems obvious to me. That is so great for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sgt mukuzi Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 That is so great for you! is that a "cool story bro" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members benzem Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 You're asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JonnyPac Posted August 17, 2011 Members Share Posted August 17, 2011 Paul, and Jeremy, The diatonic vii chord is half-dim (m7b5); the other version is full on dim7 (with the "bb7"). I disagree with classical thinking on the dim theory though. I hear Bdim7 in C as a rootless V7b9 meaning G7b9/B w/o the G. This can be built from the parallel minor key or the HW dim scale; both common and sound nice. Remember that triads and tetrads are used as super-structures as well as stand alone chords. Many subs are based on this observation. Cmaj9 A7b9 Dm9 G7b9 C can be subbed as Em7 C#dim7 Fma7 Bdim7 C. Often the chord voicings will be like this while the bass follows the original roots (or vice versa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.