Mesa F50 question about volume pedal in the loop

[johnncohen1992]

I want to put a volume pedal or an eq pedal in the loop of my F50 to lower the volume and play at bedroom levels. Which type of pedal would work best, and is there a specific model that gives a broader range of volume control? For example, my understanding is that an actual volume pedal goes down to zero, but eq pedals like the GE-7 do not.

[DeepEnd]

You definitely want a volume pedal. For that matter, there are gizmos available on eBay that are essentially a volume pot in a box. I built my own to do what you describe with a Fender SS amp. The issue with using an EQ pedal is that each slider cuts the volume in a specific frequency range. Here's an example of what a graphic EQ does:

 

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"equalizer.gif","data-attachmentid":32307076}[/ATTACH]

 

At the bottom, you can see a series of troughs. Set all the sliders in full cut position and you get a series of overlapping troughs, a wavy line instead of a straight one. A volume pedal will cut the volume evenly across the frequency range. There are some pedals, overdrives and such, that have a gain control and that might work for you and give you a little more for your money but if you just want to cut the volume to bedroom levels a volume pedal is a good bet.

[Mikeo]

I want to put a volume pedal or an eq pedal in the loop of my F50 to lower the volume and play at bedroom levels. Which type of pedal would work best' date=' and is there a specific model that gives a broader range of volume control? For example, my understanding is that an actual volume pedal goes down to zero, but eq pedals like the GE-7 do not. [/quote']

 

The F series of amps have a master volume. They also have a headphone output, whih I don't think sound that pleasant with headphones.

If by loop you mean FX send and return, this will not lover the volume. Try lowering the master volume.

[DeepEnd]

. . . If by loop you mean FX send and return' date=' this will not lover the volume. Try lowering the master volume.[/quote']

Of course it will. It doesn't matter where the signal gets attenuated. The little volume box I built for my SS Fender was in the effects loop and it worked the same as what the OP is describing. It's basically adding a volume pot between the preamp and power amp so the power amp receives a lower signal and produces less volume.

[Mr.Grumpy]

Basically, there are two flavors of passive (unpowered) volume pedals: high impedance for use with electric guitar bass, and have a 250 K Ohm or 500 K Ohm pot, just like the volume control in a guitar. Low impedance pedals use a 25 k Ohm pot, and intended for use with electronic keyboards. Generally, effects loops are low impedance, so a low impedance pedal might be 'best' but if you're just trying to reduce the volume for bedroom playing the type is not critical.

 

I built a 'loop attenuator' for my Mesa Studio .22 to tame the volume boost when the "hi gain" mode is engaged.

[WRGKMC]

I have no idea why others would fail to recommends a volume pedal over an EQ.

 

EQ's are used between preamp and power amps all the time in more configurations then I can count. It definitely wouldn't be an issue in a guitar amp loop and it even have some excellent benefits which are very useful.

 

What you want is an EQ which also has a "built in master volume control". Then if all you want is a flat reduction in volume you'd simply use that slider to bring the gain down. The benefit it has over a passive volume pedal is its buffered and will retain its clarity without getting all mud tones like a passive pot produces.

 

The Quality of EQ's can vary of course. Your better ones will produce no frequency removal in flat mode. As far as having a master volume, even a cheap Behringer EQ700 has a master volume which will give you a 15dB cut. If need more you can bring the filters down an additional -15dB for a -30dB total. That should practically cut your volume off and so long as you bring them all down evenly the signal should remain flat.

 

By the way, guitarists put EQ's in effects sends all the time. They proper place adding an EQ to a PA is between the Mixers preamps and power amps too.

 

An EQ has an advantage over a volume pedal too.

 

By the time you taper a passive pot down in an effects loop its typically going to suck allot of tone and make things sound very muddy. When you use an EQ, the signal will remain buffered and you can adjust any frequencies you need to get your presence back. You'll be able to make a larger amp smaller when needed shaping the EQ to remove lows and not simply cut volume.

[DeepEnd]

I have no idea why others would fail to recommends a volume pedal over an EQ. . . .

Yes, why indeed would anyone recommend an EQ pedal over a volume pedal (which is what your sentence means) when the aim is merely to reduce volume? It boggles the mind. For that matter, why not simply put the volume pedal between the guitar and amp where it belongs?

 

. . . As far as having a master volume' date=' even a cheap Behringer EQ700 has a master volume which will give you a 15dB cut. If need more you can bring the filters down an additional -15dB for a -30dB total. That should practically cut your volume off and so long as you bring them all down evenly the signal should remain flat. . . .[/quote']

As I already mentioned, any pedal with a volume control will work be it overdrive, phaser, reverb, or EQ. And, again as I already pointed out, setting all the bands of an EQ to maximum cut will not result in a flat frequency response (unless a wavy +/- 3 dB or so line is "flat" to you). Mind, you might not be able to hear the difference but the result won't be "flat."

[WRGKMC]

As I already mentioned, any pedal with a volume control will work be it overdrive, phaser, reverb, or EQ. And, again as I already pointed out, setting all the bands of an EQ to maximum cut will not result in a flat frequency response (unless a wavy +/- 3 dB or so line is "flat" to you). Mind, you might not be able to hear the difference but the result won't be "flat."

 

What's with it with you. You've been asked before not to use my posts yet here we are again, you quoting me on some unrelated garbage that has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

My Response was to the OP's question about using an EQ, not the garbage you posted. Your posts are loaded with misinformation and I ignore them like I ignore you. I'm asking you again, stay out of my posts or put me on your ignore list if you cant trust yourself to ignore my posts.

 

Since you did quote me, you force me to defend my opinion. I hate having to do that with someone as misinformed as yourself because you always resort to getting personal and trying to turn it into a pissing match.

 

I'll say this. Its obvious you are ignorant to how gear works, and on top of that you are too lazy to figure it out first hand and discover the truth like most other people do. I've suggested a half dozen times in other posts you to download a frequency analyzer and conform you arguments before posting them but you are either too stubborn or too lazy to bothered and that's exactly why I have zero respect for anything you post. In short you're a leach and I don't feed leaches.

 

This is for the others here. Its common knowledge for most experienced engineers and techs but we have beginners here who may not know the differences.

 

First off, EQ's can "only" cut frequencies. "They don't boost anything". With all sliders in the center they are cutting all frequencies by 50%, and yes most are able to produce a flat response curve with the sliders flat. they wouldn't be of much use if they didn't.

 

That may be hard for some to wrap your head around but its a fact. A graphic EQ produces the least amount of frequency "cut" with the sliders maxed at the top. It only seems like you're boosting frequencies when you push them up because of the makeup gain added using a full frequency op amp after the filtering.

 

As a side note, your vintage EQ's were 100% passive. They ran using a +4dB gain line level which is called Pro Studio levels. You'll find many pieces of vintage gear were switchable between +4 or -10dB which is more commonly used today because most EQ's use active buffering if not active filters, but the same is true with all hardware filters. To turn the filters off, you max the controls out.

 

You have any doubts get yourself a graphic EQ with a built in LED frequency analyzer . Most quality Hi Fi systems have them. You can easily see the only things that changes when you boost or cut all sliders evenly is the overall volume is changed. Of course if you move the sliders individually you can shape the curve any way you want with the fixed bands. That's the whole purpose of an EQ after all.

 

If cant afford a hardware EQ, just use Windows Media Player. All Windows computers have it.

Then go into options and select "Bars and Waves" and turn on the graphic EQ.

 

Then you can go here and download a pink noise file to play back. https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_pinknoise.php

 

With all sliders set to zero the Display should be level all the way across.

Then you can set them all to max or all to minimum. The display will still be level. Only the volume will change.

 

Hardware EQ's produce the same results. Graphic EQ bands overlap enough so when you move all sliders evenly they produce "no" abnormal hills and valleys. If they do its either poorly designed piece of junk or its defective and not worth messing with. Given the saturation of high quality low cost EQ's available, there would be no reason to even mess with a piece of crap that isn't linear for whatever application you're working with. .

 

So long as all sliders on a Graphic EQ are are adjusted evenly horizontal the bands overlap enough to produce a flat frequency response.

 

My suggestion again is an EQ can be used if you choose to. They are definitely cheaper then many Volume pedals too. The ones made for guitar will target the guitar frequencies very well and the ones with a master volume will have more then enough attenuation to get the job done. Like I said, the one I posted has 15dB boost of cut with unity at zero and the frequency sliders hand an additional plus or minus 15dB (Its right there in the specs so I see no reason to doubt it) . The markings on the face plate are in decibels

 

Your guitar speaker wont reproduce anything above 6K or so or below 100Hz so you really don't need a wider range. Something like a 10/20 band wouldn't hurt of course. You just wont get any response from bands the speaker can reproduce.

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"00001.JPG","data-attachmentid":32310789}[/ATTACH]

 

If your amps built in EQ is good enough you may be OK simply using a passive pedal. In my experience however, those knobs wont target the tone sucking very well and you wind up sounding a bit anemic.

you could add a bleeder cap on the volume pot and retain some of those highs for a few cents which should help.

[DeepEnd]

First off, you've been asked before not to use my posts. My Response was to the OP's question about using an EQ, not the garbage you posted. Your posts are loaded with misinformation and I ignore them like I ignore you. . . .

 

. . . This is for the sake of others,

 

First off, EQ's can "only" cut frequencies. They don't boost anything. With all sliders in the center they are cutting all frequencies by 50%, and yes most are able to produce a flat response curve with the sliders flat. they wouldn't be of much use if they didn't. . . .

 

. . . Hardware EQ's produce the same results. Graphic EQ bands overlap enough so when you move all sliders evenly they produce no abnormal hills and valleys. If they do you wouldn't want to own it because the thing was poorly designed.

 

It doesn't matter if they are full up full down or centered. So long as all sliders are adjusted evenly horizontal the bands overlap enough to keep the frequencies flat. . . .

Let's look at the descriptions of a few EQ pedals (emphasis added in each case). First the MXR M108S:

Featuring 10 EQ sliders, with carefully selected frequencies and +/-12dB boost/cut range,

Next the Boss GE-7:

The GE-7 has seven bands ranging from 100Hz to 6.4kHz -- ideal for guitar sounds, with boost/cut of +/- 15dB per band.

Finally the Behringer EQ700 you mentioned:

The EQ700's 7-band EQ offers a 15dB boost of [sic] cut of each band.

You'll notice all these descriptions refer to both boost and cut relative to a flat response, which is the operative idea. All are powered pedals to allow for the necessary boost. I know how EQ's work from a number of years working with hifi gear. I also know the only time you get a truly "flat" frequency response in the case of a graphic EQ is when the sliders are centered. The rest of the time you get a series of hills and valleys simply because of the way EQ's work. I've seen the resulting curves from a really good frequency analyzer and I know, whereas you seem to be taking things on faith based on your assumption that you're infallible. Take a moment to look at the graphic I posted in the second post in this thread for a typical graphic EQ. You'll see that there's not enough overlap to allow a "flat" response in the full cut or boost position. Or maybe you won't. It wouldn't surprise me.

[Mr.Grumpy]

I recommend this item:

https://www.ehx.com/products/signal-pad/instructions

 

Electro-Harmonix 'Signal Pad' pedal, a passive volume control in a box. The power connection is only needed for the on/off status LED, it will work fine with no power connected. $45 new at most US music stores. Smaller and cheaper than most volume pedals.

 

Sorry, but I can't resist commenting on a couple of points brought up in this thread.

 

By the time you taper a passive pot down in an effects loop its typically going to suck allot of tone and make things sound very muddy.

 

Effects loops are line-level and low-impedance (in other words, they're 'buffered') "Tone suck" shouldn't be a problem if a passive volume control is put in an effects loop. I run my Mesa Studio 22 amp with a loop volume control, I have more than enough treble.

 

First off, EQ's can "only" cut frequencies. "They don't boost anything".

 

That's like saying a car can't go uphill because a tire can't turn by itself.

 

This is his electronics techs' viewpoint showing... it's true that the frequency-selecting components of an equalizer - resistors and capacitors - are passive components. So. it IS possible to have a "passive" EQ device, but the signal loss is so great it's not practical or feasible in normal situations. For a practical EQ device, there is always a buffer at the front, because the signal has to be distributed to each EQ band in parallel. There is a gain stage for each EQ band to compensate for the signal losses by the passive components, and then lastly there is a summing/mixing stage at the end.

 

Tone purists should avoid graphic EQ pedals, because it adds about a hundred bipolar transistors to your "all tube" signal chain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikeo]

I recommend this item:

https://www.ehx.com/products/signal-pad/instructions

 

Electro-Harmonix 'Signal Pad' pedal, a passive volume control in a box. The power connection is only needed for the on/off status LED, it will work fine with no power connected. $45 new at most US music stores. Smaller and cheaper than most volume pedals.

 

Sorry, but I can't resist commenting on a couple of points brought up in this thread.

 

 

 

Effects loops are line-level and low-impedance (in other words, they're 'buffered') "Tone suck" shouldn't be a problem if a passive volume control is put in an effects loop. I run my Mesa Studio 22 amp with a loop volume control, I have more than enough treble.

 

 

 

That's like saying a car can't go uphill because a tire can't turn by itself.

 

This is his electronics techs' viewpoint showing... it's true that the frequency-selecting components of an equalizer - resistors and capacitors - are passive components. So. it IS possible to have a "passive" EQ device, but the signal loss is so great it's not practical or feasible in normal situations. For a practical EQ device, there is always a buffer at the front, because the signal has to be distributed to each EQ band in parallel. There is a gain stage for each EQ band to compensate for the signal losses by the passive components, and then lastly there is a summing/mixing stage at the end.

 

Tone purists should avoid graphic EQ pedals, because it adds about a hundred bipolar transistors to your "all tube" signal chain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I avoid em altogether.

 

https://www.tedweber.com/minimass

[video=youtube;J4QhpMqbI00]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4QhpMqbI00

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

This is directed at the OP. Here are a few a final thoughts on graphic EQ's. First, look at this from Rane Audio:

 

[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tn154fig2.png Views:\t1 Size:\t14.0 KB ID:\t32313914","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"32313914","data-size":"full","title":"n154fig2.png"}[/ATTACH]

This example uses 1/3 octave bands but the effect is similar for bands with wider spacing. You'll notice the "ripple" in the top (blue) curve. The same thing happens in the cut position. The ripple can be minimized with better design but in an inexpensive EQ or one with especially narrow bands spaced relatively far apart the ripple can be even more pronounced. You'll also notice there's more boost than the settings of the sliders would indicate. In short, don't believe the settings of the sliders represent what's actually happening. An equalizer is not designed for overall volume control and shouldn't be used in that capacity unless there's no choice.

[onelife]

...

 

My Response was to the OP's question about using an EQ, not the garbage you posted. Your posts are loaded with misinformation and I ignore them like I ignore you. I'm asking you again, stay out of my posts or put me on your ignore list if you cant trust yourself to ignore my posts...

 

 

I would be careful about accusing others of posting misinformation.

 

For a person with "two degress in electronics" I have noticed several mistakes - which I am sure are unintentional - in the information you have posted over the years. I try to be polite and non-ofensive in my replies where I attempt to correct your mistakes.

 

We all make mistakes from time to time but it does not help to accuse others of being ignorant, misinformed or not having a clue when they do so.

 

You have allot to offer this forum and we appreciate your contributions. There is no need for the condescending attitude.

[DeepEnd]

Thanks, I appreciate the support. He's been warned previously about personal attacks directed at me. I could report him over his "leach" comment but it's just not worth bothering.