Speaker recommendations- Smoothening Out the H&K Tubemiester 18- also 12AT7?

[joshhpmusic]

Hi all,

 

I'm now on the search for a better speaker than the "V30" style thing that came in my Panama Guitars Tonewood Series 1x12" Cab. I have already replaced the tubes with Saratov's in the power section, and the best combo I've found in the preamp is a JJ ECC83S on the left (V1? is this correct?) and a TAD 7025WA on the right (V2?).

 

It's certainly sounding better, but I still want it to be a little smoother, more dynamic, richer. I think the best thing to do at this point is a speaker replacement on the Panama cab. Any recommendations?

 

I remember really liking something about how it felt to play the Fender George Benson Hot Rod, which I believe has Jensen in it, but by all means give me your recommendations for any speaker that will round this amp out.

 

Also, would it be a good idea to swap a preamp tube with something like a 12AT7 or 5751? I've heard this can really mellow out something like a Hot Rod Deluxe.

 

Thanks,

-Josh

[WRGKMC]

Jensen's are good. I'd buy an Alnico instead of a ceramic speaker however. The ceramics are mediocre at best and there are a bunch of companies that make similar sounding clones. The Alnicos are some of the best made. The string touch you get is incredible. Very versatile too. I've used them with all my different heads from Fender, Marshall, Sunn, Ampeg, Music Man. All of them sound fantastic so there should be little compatibility issues

I bought 4 of the 10" alnicos for a cab I built. I have a second cab with Ceramic 10's and the difference is like night and day.

 

The new Jensen's aren't the same company as the old. The Italian made reissues use the same formula for making them however. If anything they might feel a little tight at first till they are broken in, but they have plenty of frequency response so dialing up your tone wont be an issue.

 

I believe the 12" alnicos come in 25 and 35W versions and possible a 50W. You'd want to go with the one that is closest or just above your amps wattage so the 25W would be ideal. You'll have a bit of extra headroom but the way the speaker loudness curve should be ideal.

 

The reviews here are pretty much spot on besides the first. The reviewer obviously hasn't got a clue. The speakers have no problem with durability so long as you don't surpass the power rating. They are in fact designed to be pushed hard, he just doesn't know that yet.

 

Most reviews you'll hear terms like "increased touch sensitivity that is even more nuanced to overtones." You don't get that kind of touch from many thick papered ceramic speakers.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/jensen-p12r-25-watt-12-replacement-speaker/665013000000612?cntry=us&source=3WWRWXGP&gclid=EAI aIQobChMImb7X-8qx2AIVBbXACh1aOQxqEAQYBCABEgJ7CPD_BwE&kwid=produc tads-adid^221957295827-device^c-plaid^376911716327-sku^665013000000612@ADL4MF-adType^PLA

 

As far as using a 12AT7 or 5751, use the 5751's. Its a much better sounding tube design. 12AT7's are mainly used as inverter tubes and don't have to sound great. The 5751 gives you a 30% reduction in gain. The 12AT7 takes it down 40% which is probably too much for such a low wattage amp. If this was a 50W or 100W amp I'd say go for it but for 18W you wont have much more juice left to do anything but use it as a bedroom amp and it make things worse by having to push the drive levels up to make it loud enough.

 

The only problems with the 5751 is the limited selection of tube manufacturers. Don't by vintage. There is no way to know how many hours use a tube has and 99% of the vintage audio are used tubes taken out of amps and resold. Tube testers cant tell you how many hours they've burned.

 

Out of the others there are JJ, Sovtek and Tung Sol. JJ's are garbage in my book. The only decent tubes they make are the EL34 power tubes. Their preamp tubes suck for tone and gain. That's why they sell so cheap. I've used the Sovtek and gotten excellent mileage out of them. No problems with noise.

 

I haven't tried the new Tung Sol but have heard good things. The vintage ones were designed for Hi Fi and not suitable for combos because they weren't durable enough. They had good tone but would rattle themselves to death and became microphonic. The new versions have been beefed up for guitar amps. I've been reluctant to try them because of my experience with the vintage versions which were all bad with guitar amps, but for Hi Fi they aren't bad. If the new designs are more durable then they are likely on par with the Sovtek.

 

I still suggest you try the Electro Harmonix 12AX7 however. The added clean headroom and boosted volume is likely what you need for that amp. If you reduce the gain factor you'll have to turn the amp up more which means you may be getting more breakup instead of less. With the EH you'll run the gain lower and have less breakup. Preamp tubes are inexpensive however and there's nothing wrong trying both till you find what works best for you.

[joshhpmusic]

Jensen's are good. I'd buy an Alnico instead of a ceramic speaker however. The ceramics are mediocre at best and there are a bunch of companies that make similar sounding clones. The Alnicos are some of the best made. The string touch you get is incredible. Very versatile too. I've used them with all my different heads from Fender, Marshall, Sunn, Ampeg, Music Man. All of them sound fantastic so there should be little compatibility issues

I bought 4 of the 10" alnicos for a cab I built. I have a second cab with Ceramic 10's and the difference is like night and day.

 

The new Jensen's aren't the same company as the old. The Italian made reissues use the same formula for making them however. If anything they might feel a little tight at first till they are broken in, but they have plenty of frequency response so dialing up your tone wont be an issue.

 

I believe the 12" alnicos come in 25 and 35W versions and possible a 50W. You'd want to go with the one that is closest or just above your amps wattage so the 25W would be ideal. You'll have a bit of extra headroom but the way the speaker loudness curve should be ideal.

 

The reviews here are pretty much spot on besides the first. The reviewer obviously hasn't got a clue. The speakers have no problem with durability so long as you don't surpass the power rating. They are in fact designed to be pushed hard, he just doesn't know that yet.

 

Most reviews you'll hear terms like "increased touch sensitivity that is even more nuanced to overtones." You don't get that kind of touch from many thick papered ceramic speakers.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acces...WXGP&gclid=EAI aIQobChMImb7X-8qx2AIVBbXACh1aOQxqEAQYBCABEgJ7CPD_BwE&kwid=produc tads-adid^221957295827-device^c-plaid^376911716327-sku^665013000000612@ADL4MF-adType^PLA

 

As far as using a 12AT7 or 5751, use the 5751's. Its a much better sounding tube design. 12AT7's are mainly used as inverter tubes and don't have to sound great. The 5751 gives you a 30% reduction in gain. The 12AT7 takes it down 40% which is probably too much for such a low wattage amp. If this was a 50W or 100W amp I'd say go for it but for 18W you wont have much more juice left to do anything but use it as a bedroom amp and it make things worse by having to push the drive levels up to make it loud enough.

 

The only problems with the 5751 is the limited selection of tube manufacturers. Don't by vintage. There is no way to know how many hours use a tube has and 99% of the vintage audio are used tubes taken out of amps and resold. Tube testers cant tell you how many hours they've burned.

 

Out of the others there are JJ, Sovtek and Tung Sol. JJ's are garbage in my book. The only decent tubes they make are the EL34 power tubes. Their preamp tubes suck for tone and gain. That's why they sell so cheap. I've used the Sovtek and gotten excellent mileage out of them. No problems with noise.

 

I haven't tried the new Tung Sol but have heard good things. The vintage ones were designed for Hi Fi and not suitable for combos because they weren't durable enough. They had good tone but would rattle themselves to death and became microphonic. The new versions have been beefed up for guitar amps. I've been reluctant to try them because of my experience with the vintage versions which were all bad with guitar amps, but for Hi Fi they aren't bad. If the new designs are more durable then they are likely on par with the Sovtek.

 

I still suggest you try the Electro Harmonix 12AX7 however. The added clean headroom and boosted volume is likely what you need for that amp. If you reduce the gain factor you'll have to turn the amp up more which means you may be getting more breakup instead of less. With the EH you'll run the gain lower and have less breakup. Preamp tubes are inexpensive however and there's nothing wrong trying both till you find what works best for you.

 

Thanks for this info. How big would you think the improvement would actually be though? It's either this, or if it wouldn't sound all that much more amazing I would sell it and get a Blues Deluxe RI. Opinions?

 

And that 12" Jensen alnico sounds pretty much like what I want... touch responsiveness like that is a big part of that nice sound for me.

[WRGKMC]

Sorry, unfortunately I cant give you the definitive answer you want. It would be easy to tell someone something would be better based on first hand experience but it can only be at best subjective to an artists own personal tastes.

 

The missing link for me is I don't know that amp. I can look at its circuit design and see it has similarities to a Vox which I have used but it only takes a few changes to the tone stack and my assumptions could wind up being wrong.

 

The EL84 tubes are used in several Vox amps and they do sound incredible pushing Alnico speakers. I'm also basing my suggestions on what you've posted and the 50+ years experience I have in both electronics and music as a guitarist that this might be an optimal match. I cant pull that trigger for you however. If I were there and plugged your guitar into your setup I could pretty much instantly tell you exactly what's needed.

 

That kind of evaluation simply cant be done over a forum and I don't care how much searching you do, if you're being given an honest opinion, you'll be told the same by others. Anyone who gives you definite answers beware. They are likely amateurs who haven't got a clue and could care less whether they give you bad advice.

 

It takes actual hands on testing in the room with the amp. There is no substitute for that hands on because its not just the sound, its the feel of the two working together. Its like taking a new car for a test drive. You have to feel the road under you feet before you know if a different brand of tires can give you a smoother ride.

 

You're the one doing that test drive not me, so you'll have to make those decisions. I can only give you some insight based on my own personal experience.

 

One option you do have.

 

If you buy the 50W Alnico instead of a 25W and you ultimately find that's not the right amp head for you, you can hang onto that speaker and stick it in that Blues Deluxe. That amp I know well and know it would be a great choice for that amp. Much better then those cheap Fender Ceramic speakers which tend bark at you.

[DeepEnd]

One quick thought: The Jensen P12N WRGKMC is talking about costs well over $200 so make very sure it's what you want before you buy. Basically, if you turn up the bass a bit and your existing V30 style speaker starts sounding the way you want then you're on the right track. It would help if you could borrow an EQ pedal and play with it for a while so you know what you need to do to achieve the sound you want. $200+ is not an inexpensive investment for something that might solve the problem so you might also want to think in terms of a new amp. A new Hot Rod Deluxe comes in at a bit over $700 and if you can sell your existing gear you might get fairly close to a used one. A new Tubemeister 18 head is $500 by itself and it looks like your cab is in the $250-300 neighborhood, also new.

[joshhpmusic]

I did some research and it seems like maybe the WGS Blackhawk 50W Alnico, Weber Silver Bell Alnico, or a Scumback might be a good fit for a nice, smooth, warm sound?

Any opinions?

 

Thanks,

-Josh

[WRGKMC]

I did some research and it seems like maybe the WGS Blackhawk 50W Alnico, Weber Silver Bell Alnico, or a Scumback might be a good fit for a nice, smooth, warm sound?

Any opinions?

 

Thanks,

-Josh

 

The WGS Blackhawk 50W Alnico is a clone of the Celestion Gold alnico speaker

The Weber Silver Bell Alnico is a clone of the Vox Silver made by Rola which is the same as a Blue Dog made for vox. (they ran out of paint in 67).

The Scumback Alnico is a clone of the Vox Silver Alnico.

 

Both Weber and Celestion make Blue Alnico's and Vox uses the Celestion Blue Dogs.

 

These are all British voiced speakers where as the Jensen are considered American toned speakers. All have their roots as Hi Fi speakers that were beefed up and modified for guitar amps. The British voiced Alnicos will have a tone similar to other British voiced ceramic speakers. Celestion Gold and Blue are the best of the bunch. The rest vary in quality.

 

I'm sure any of them will sound decent compared to a ceramic so its mainly an issue of price. I'm not a huge fan of weber speakers myself based on the ones I bought awhile back. Of course that one model doesn't represent their entire line but compared to other speakers similarly priced they suck ass. Haven't tried the warehouse speakers but they tend to get good reviews. Scumback must be new. Never heard of them before so its unlikely you'll find many reviews on them.

 

[DeepEnd]

WRGKMC is steering you straight. The V30 style speaker you already have is British voiced and you're not happy. Why would you want a different British voiced speaker? It's like being allergic to dairy and ordering yogurt instead of cheese; it doesn't solve the problem. Personally I'm not a fan of Weber in general because they don't publish specs. Eminence speakers tend to have strong high ends, which doesn't fit my definition of "smooth." That pretty much leaves Jensen or replacing your amp.

[Verne Andru]

FWIW based on my rig with Alnico and ceramic, it depends on the speaker.

 

I'm running a 2x10 el84 rig with a Weber Silver Bell alnico in one cab and a ceramic Eminence Lil Buddy hemp cone in an identical extension amp. They are both very nice sounding speakers but if I had to choose which one matches your criteria best - i.e. warm and smooth - I would go with the Lil Buddy. It's a bit browner and dirtier without the high-end chime of the Alnico. The two compliment each other well but do have noticeably different sound and feel characteristics.