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  • #61
    From a purely scientific point, given the first law of thermodynamics, all that energy has to go somewhere, I just don't think it's a state of matter that we, as humans, can comprehend just yet. God is not going to let us in on all his secrets.
    Originally Posted by SwampMusic


    Never underestimate the perversity of inanimate objects. Their sole purpose is to confound, confuse and generally frustrate the living.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ShesGotVerve


      Some very cool posts; I really like hearing others perspectives on the subject. Gagnon, I guess I could say that my interest in what happens to us after we die is more academic than religious. Of course there are ties to religion for some, not for others. Because I'm not sure what I believe, I'm looking at it more from that place.




      I take it that means "No." Well, Ok. I accept that at face value, but I don't get it. What's so religious about seeing what the Bible has to say about heaven? Reading it doesn't mean you have to beleive it. You wondered aloud about heaven. The Bible seems to me the most obvious choice for information.
      A forest is in an acorn.

      HCGB Trooper #217

      Comment


      • #63
        I'm going to Heaven where I'll dwell with and worship my God for all time.
        My name is Dave and I play guitar.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by gtrdave
          I'm going to Heaven where I'll dwell with and worship my God for all time.

          To have so much faith must be a wonderful thing.I just cant find it within myself.
          You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Andrewrg

            To have so much faith must be a wonderful thing.I just cant find it within myself.
            I agree!

            I wish I had that.

            I just don't.

            Yes, I've tried.
            Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend
            Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read
            -Groucho Marx

            Comment


            • #66
              OK, here's something else to contemplate....

              Time is the method that is used to mark a "passing" of things. Before the existense of the universe there was no time, only nothingness. We have both Biblical teachings and theoretical scientific conjecture to support this. Scientists who ascribe to the Big Bang theory can explain what they think happened to create this event, but they admit that they are clueless as to why it occurred and exactly how in the first place. *

              Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we.

              *
              http://www.allaboutscience.org/big-bang-theory.htm


              Now to my point. Since I believe that the universe was actually created by God, and that the Big Bang was actually God creating it, God created time for those of us who live in that universe. Since God is the creator of the universe, He is outside of it where there is no time. God existed before there was a universe and He'll exist long after the universe is gone...because he is eternal. My theory is that when we die we are leaving the realm of time as created by God, and going to the timeless infinity of God's realm. In God's realm the beginning, the present, and the end are meaningless...there is only existence ( the Alpha and the Omega). So in effect we will all be arriving in God's presence at the same point, regardless of when we leave this earth (remember, there's no longer a beginning and an end, only existence). Whether one stays with God or not is for each individual to either believe or not. I happen to believe it and plan to stay with Him throughout eternity. One's belief or non-belief may then become a self fulfilling prophesy.

              So, just another little tidbit to stimulate some debate...
              Trooper # 193 in the H.C. Geezer Brigade.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Bloozcat
                OK, here's something else to contemplate....

                So, just another little tidbit to stimulate some debate...


                Yeah, cool thoughtwave. Reminds me of a joke:
                God was sitting in heaven one day when a group of scientists came to Him. The spokesman said to Him, "God, we don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing - in other words, we can now do what you did in the beginning." "Oh, is that so? Tell Me..." replies God. "Well," says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of you and breathe life into it, thus creating man." "Well, that's very interesting...show Me." So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil into the shape of a man. "No, no, no..." interrupts God, "Get your own dirt."


                Anyway, your discussion of time vs. eternity makes total sense to me. The cool thing about Christianity is that God, who dwells in eternity, actually steps into the realm of time to make way for people, who dwell in the realm of time, to dwell in the good place when they enter into eternity. I mean, what a story! You couldn't make that one up! Christianity is unique that way. It lives between the paradoxes! It's so simple, yet so deep. I love it!
                A forest is in an acorn.

                HCGB Trooper #217

                Comment


                • #68
                  there is an (almost) eternity of darkness, then the brief spark we call life then complete utter darkness without conciousness

                  its just the way it is

                  get used to it
                  badgers????







                  Originally Posted by Jimmy James


                  You'll never see me stepping on anyone's toes trying to play the **************** out of "Hava Nagila" on the accordion. I'm just sayin'.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Jahmbo
                    there is an (almost) eternity of darkness, then the brief spark we call life then complete utter darkness without conciousness

                    its just the way it is

                    get used to it


                    It's 'just the way it is' if that's what you choose to believe. For you it is, for others it may not be. Just a thought.
                    Originally Posted by BlueStrat
                    You, on the other hand, are like the third ex wife I never had!








                    Originally posted by daddymack
                    After reading this thread numerous times, I am now becoming convinced that based on the life I have led so far, that I will wind up in Raleigh, NC when I die, for all eternity...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by gagnon


                      Yeah, cool thoughtwave. Reminds me of a joke:
                      God was sitting in heaven one day when a group of scientists came to Him. The spokesman said to Him, "God, we don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing - in other words, we can now do what you did in the beginning." "Oh, is that so? Tell Me..." replies God. "Well," says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of you and breathe life into it, thus creating man." "Well, that's very interesting...show Me." So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil into the shape of a man. "No, no, no..." interrupts God, "Get your own dirt."


                      Anyway, your discussion of time vs. eternity makes total sense to me. The cool thing about Christianity is that God, who dwells in eternity, actually steps into the realm of time to make way for people, who dwell in the realm of time, to dwell in the good place when they enter into eternity. I mean, what a story! You couldn't make that one up! Christianity is unique that way. It lives between the paradoxes! It's so simple, yet so deep. I love it!


                      Loved the story.
                      However, your Christian-centrism needs to be opened up...Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism, and the God of Christianity is the same god...and in fact, I would have to argue that the God of any monotheistic belief system is the same god. The difference is the approach in interpreting the role of the all-powerful in one's everyday life. Christians don't 'own' God, or heaven...nor do the Jews, the Buddhists, Moslems, Rastafarians....
                      "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

                      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'

                      "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

                      Solipsism is the new empiricism. -Alan Burdick

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by ShesGotVerve


                        It's 'just the way it is' if that's what you choose to believe. For you it is, for others it may not be. Just a thought.


                        thats just it, i dont think 'belief' has any part in it.

                        its the 'beliefs' of the organised (and some unorganised) religions that fly in the face of logic
                        badgers????







                        Originally Posted by Jimmy James


                        You'll never see me stepping on anyone's toes trying to play the **************** out of "Hava Nagila" on the accordion. I'm just sayin'.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by daddymack


                          Loved the story.
                          However, your Christian-centrism needs to be opened up...Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism, and the God of Christianity is the same god...and in fact, I would have to argue that the God of any monotheistic belief system is the same god. The difference is the approach in interpreting the role of the all-powerful in one's everyday life. Christians don't 'own' God, or heaven...nor do the Jews, the Buddhists, Moslems, Rastafarians....


                          While you are admonishing someone else about their "Christian-centrism" daddymack, you are espousing a belief system of your own. You say that, "Christians don't 'own' God, or heaven...nor do the Jews, the Buddhists, Moslems, Rastafarians."

                          This is in fact a belief system if this is what you hold as truth. You have no more definitive evidence to support your claim than do the "Christian-centrists". In fact, the Jews believe not that they 'own' God, but that God chose them to be His people. When Abraham entered into the covenent with God, he accepted God's offer for all the Jews. This was at a time when there were many polytheistic and some monotheistic sects around who worshiped other gods by name. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism in that Christians believe that by accepting Jesus as their savior, they are completing God's plan as offered to all mankind...not just the Jews (although Jesus first went to the Jews with his message).

                          So, Jews and Christians alike believe that God chose them by his offers of grace, and that they in fact, belong to Him. It's quite the opposite notion that somehow they (the Jews and the Christians) own God.

                          daddymack, I'm not trying to 'prove' my belief system to you. What I am saying is that your belief system cannot be proven either. As one of my Jewish friends put it, "that's your mythology". No one will know with absolute certainty until they leave this planet.

                          I truly believe that God does not want there to be absolute evidence of his existence. If there was, everyone would believe...not out of the desire to love and obey God, but out of fear of the consequences should they not. God wants his people to freely choose and not to be forced into compliance by fear.
                          Trooper # 193 in the H.C. Geezer Brigade.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bloozcat

                            While you are admonishing someone else about their "Christian-centrism" daddymack, you are espousing a belief system of your own. You say that, "Christians don't 'own' God, or heaven...nor do the Jews, the Buddhists, Moslems, Rastafarians."

                            Well, BC, I was not 'espousing' anything, just stating an opinion. I do not 'espouse' any philosophy, and my philosophical/religious beliefs are mine, and I would no more expect anyone to accept mine than I would want anyone to try to change mine. When it comes to religions, there are no absolutes...IMHO.

                            This is in fact a belief system if this is what you hold as truth. You have no more definitive evidence to support your claim than do the "Christian-centrists". In fact, the Jews believe not that they 'own' God, but that God chose them to be His people. When Abraham entered into the covenent with God, he accepted God's offer for all the Jews. This was at a time when there were many polytheistic and some monotheistic sects around who worshiped other gods by name. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism in that Christians believe that by accepting Jesus as their savior, they are completing God's plan as offered to all mankind...not just the Jews (although Jesus first went to the Jews with his message).

                            So, Jews and Christians alike believe that God chose them by his offers of grace, and that they in fact, belong to Him. It's quite the opposite notion that somehow they (the Jews and the Christians) own God.

                            My statement was made in order to point out the attitudinal issue as written by another and read by myself. But when someone talks about 'their' god, 'my'god, 'our' god...that implies ownership. There is one God. He is not my God. He is not your God. God is God. God answers to no one, God is omnipotent. But God is also indifferent. God cannot take sides. God cannot select one belief system over another. The man-made story that God selected the Jews over all other people on Earth to be blessed above all others was a construct of the Jews, not a statement by the Almighty. God did not write the Bible. The Bible was written by primitive, uneducated people as a way of explaining the world around them, and acknowledging that there were things which they had no way of explaining, and thus they attributed all the mysteries to one source: God.

                            daddymack, I'm not trying to 'prove' my belief system to you. What I am saying is that your belief system cannot be proven either. As one of my Jewish friends put it, "that's your mythology". No one will know with absolute certainty until they leave this planet.
                            I would not even attempt to try to alter anyone's system, I would just say keep it open, read between the lines, accept that other's faiths are just as valid. I have studied many of the monotheistic religions. None do I find that have not been tainted by intervening interpretations over time. That includes the bible, the Talmud, the Koran, etc. People change things, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes subtlely...but compounding these changes ove a millenia or two...who knows how close one is to the source material...the Dead Sea Scrolls bear this out.

                            I truly believe that God does not want there to be absolute evidence of his existence. If there was, everyone would believe...not out of the desire to love and obey God, but out of fear of the consequences should they not. God wants his people to freely choose and not to be forced into compliance by fear.

                            As I said, God is indifferent.
                            God couldn't care less what humans think God is.
                            God has to remain totally impartial.
                            God cannot play favorites.
                            God cannot discriminate.
                            Therfore, God cannot condemn the evil to eternal damnation
                            anymore than God can offer everlasting bliss to the devout.
                            Heaven and hell are human creations, not the work of a divine and all powerful being.

                            I'll stop here before I get too caught up in expressing my opinion.
                            "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

                            Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'

                            "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

                            Solipsism is the new empiricism. -Alan Burdick

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by daddymack


                              Loved the story.
                              However, your Christian-centrism needs to be opened up...Christianity is an off-shoot of Judaism, and the God of Christianity is the same god...and in fact, I would have to argue that the God of any monotheistic belief system is the same god. The difference is the approach in interpreting the role of the all-powerful in one's everyday life. Christians don't 'own' God, or heaven...nor do the Jews, the Buddhists, Moslems, Rastafarians....


                              DM,
                              You know, I like you ( like this , not like this ). I like reading your posts. You're funny, well rounded, knowledgable, and a lot of the time I agree with your postion. But I'm the kind of guy who accepts absolute truth. Either a thing is true or it isn't. Two worldviews can't be true at the same time. Saying that christianity, islam, buddhism, rasta, etc. are all talking about the same God seems a gigantic leap of logic to me. But, whatever. I'm not looking ot looking to get in a shouting match over it. What good's it gonna do? So I'll leave it at that.

                              ADDENDUM:
                              Hm. Interesting. I posted this reply and then discovered your reply to Bloozcat saying you don't beleive in absolutes. Thats kind of ironic.
                              A forest is in an acorn.

                              HCGB Trooper #217

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by daddymack

                                As I said, God is indifferent.
                                God couldn't care less what humans think God is.
                                God has to remain totally impartial.
                                God cannot play favorites.
                                God cannot discriminate.
                                Therfore, God cannot condemn the evil to eternal damnation
                                anymore than God can offer everlasting bliss to the devout.
                                Heaven and hell are human creations, not the work of a divine and all powerful being.

                                I'll stop here before I get too caught up in expressing my opinion.


                                OK, but I'm afraid you've already expressed your opinions here...quite definitely by what you said in your statement above. You have no verifiable fact to support any of these contentions...only your opinions. And that is one of the points I was trying to make. You may disagree with some of the tenets of certain religions, but you can't disprove them, anymore than you can prove your own beliefs in this regard.

                                You have your beliefs, or if you prefer, opinions and I have mine...as do many others. You may not agree with the founding principles of any particular religion, but they are the principles of those who believe in that way.

                                So rather than turning this into an unnecessary arguement, why don't we just agree where we can and agree to disagree where we can't...with no hard feelings either way.
                                Trooper # 193 in the H.C. Geezer Brigade.

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