is my singing really that off?

[el-liberty]

Hey guys!

I showed someone these three songs and they said that i'm singing off almost all the time lol i try to hear it but i just don't. whenever i asked for a review of my singing i got that answer and i just don't know how to do better. i have a vocal coach and she hardly ever says i'm off, so i'm wondering: doesn't she hear it, doesn't she want to tell me or am i singing better when i sing in front of her? maybe she's given up on it lol

 

anyway, here are the songs:

(the songs are son of a preacher man, dream a little dream and you know i'm no good)

 

if possible, please tell me where i'm off and where i'm right and if you have any tips on how to do better. and how is it off? too high, too low? just a little or completely off? and how the hell can i learn to hear it? lol is there still hope for me or will i always sound bad?

 

i hope someone can help thank you!

[kickingtone]

Three questions/questiony things...

 

1. How did you record your vocals? Through headphones? One earpiece off, so you could hear yourself? etc. More detail would be useful.

 

2. How relaxed did you feel when singing, and did you find the songs easy enough to sing? Was the range comfortable?

 

3. When you say you can't hear if you are off, do you mean while you are singing, when you listen to the playback, or both?

[CosmicDolphin]

Definitely some issues with the pitching.

 

Preacher Man starts off okay but the word " along "..it slides off pitch and goes flat.." When they gather round " starts out off key quite a bit ..I don't think you get back until " look into my eyes "..but I think generally when it's off you are flat.

 

I also notice certain words jump out in volume " EVER reach me "..makes it sound uncontrolled / out of balance

 

How to fix it ? Know the song and know all the notes of the melody. It sounds like you don't know what some of them are supposed to be. I would have thought a good singing teacher would be working on this with you ? I know mine does..slows it right down and goes over the notes slowly on the piano and gets me to match them until they are embedded and then speeds it back up again.

 

Do you practice scales on different sounds ? That should help if you do them daily ..if you are struggling there are ear/pitch training courses yo can find online. Playing an instrument helps as well..a guitarist can spot an out of tune guitar easily..same with a pianist etc.

[el-liberty]

thanks for the replies!

 

1. i record with my music box right in front of me (so the playback gets recorded, too), no headphones in. the microphone on my laptop records the sound.

2. i felt pretty relaxed singing the songs and feel like they're in my range, though they're not songs i listen to everyday. especially with preacher man, i hardly listened to the original before singing it. oddly enough, my voice teacher said the song suited me fine lol i usually prefer to sing more dramatic songs lol where i feel like i have more issues singing them correctly but it's more fun. (

3. i don't hear when i'm off either way, while i sing and when i listen to the recording

 

I would have thought a good singing teacher would be working on this with you ? I know mine does..slows it right down and goes over the notes slowly on the piano and gets me to match them until they are embedded and then speeds it back up again.

occasionally we do this but usually we work on different things. we worked on preacher man and dream a little dream and we didn't do this, as far as i remember (i'll have to listen to the recording of the session)

 

maybe something to add: i often have issues with my voice, in that i used to be able to sing higher better, but strain a lot now. i've got issues with my stomach and dealing with anxiety a lot lately, which i think might also affect my voice. but i don't think that's the only issue here

 

here's a song to show how i sing the more "dramatic" songs:

how my voice sounds solely with piano playback:

and here's a song i know very well (because CosmicDolphin suggested my not being familiar enough with the song might be a problem):

there's a lot of problems with the last one lol but it's what's most fun to sing to me, even though my voice might not be suited for that range. and please excuse the sloppy whistle lol

 

i'm not saying i'm singing the songs above better or that they suit me better, just to give you more of an idea how my voice sounds. i do hear that i don't think perfect on any of those songs, i just hardly hear any problems with my pitch

 

thanks for the advice so far, i'll try to find some pitch training courses online, i feel like this is a big problem for me.

[kickingtone]

thanks for the advice so far' date=' i'll try to find some pitch training courses online, i feel like this is a big problem for me.[/quote']

 

I suspect that there is absolutely nothing wrong with your pitch PERCEPTION.

 

I think that your pitch goes out a bit when the pitch is changing quickly, especially where there is glissando or portamento, and the effect becomes more pronounced during the higher sections of the song. These are parts where BREATH SUPPORT is most important. That is what I would recommend you focus on. I think the issue is pitch execution, not pitch perception.

 

Listening to playback...

 

Pitch is actually a bit subjective. When we hear singing, we are hearing a load of cues (frequency, overtones, rhythm, timbre, expression, etc.) But we are not necessarily paying attention to, or "listening to", all of them. How we hear the music depends on which cues we tune in to at any point in the song. So, to balance your vocals for all listeners, you have to pay attention to all cues, not only your favourite aspects of the song. Other people will be hearing it differently, but it still has to be made balanced for them. When we listen to our own vocals, we may tend to pick cues that make it work, and ignore the rest.

 

I've even heard sound engineers say something sounds off, but ok when they listen a second time. Then they come back the next day and it sounds off again. The way they are listening changes.

 

Psychology can play weird tricks. There was this one dude who would clear his throat loudly between phrases. It was almost the loudest part of his singing! He really hacked up a fur ball after every bar. He thanked me for pointing it out, and said that he hadn't noticed! That is how powerful psychology can be when listening to yourself sing. Nothing wrong with his hearing, he was only focused on what mattered to him about the song.

[CosmicDolphin]

i'm not saying i'm singing the songs above better or that they suit me better, just to give you more of an idea how my voice sounds. i do hear that i don't think perfect on any of those songs, i just hardly hear any problems with my pitch

 

thanks for the advice so far, i'll try to find some pitch training courses online, i feel like this is a big problem for me.

 

The pitching issue is pretty much the same across all of them so I think you have some work to do , maybe have a chat with your singing teacher about it next time and see what they suggest - They may be working on it without you knowing and guiding you towards exercises to help but not trying to hurt your feelings in the process by calling you out on it.

 

All down to different personality types really. I would say you can learn to be a lot better within 6-9 months

[el-liberty]

They may be working on it without you knowing and guiding you towards exercises to help but not trying to hurt your feelings in the process by calling you out on it.

i read some tips on the internet on how not to sound flat and the tips are pretty much what my voice teacher is working on with me, so you might be right. i'd prefer for her to just straight-out tell me, though, but that's not always easy. i'll have to tell her that i know lol maybe then she can be more honest with me.

 

maybe a weird question, but: how far off am i usually? lol like half a note, a whole note or even more?

 

I think that your pitch goes out a bit when the pitch is changing quickly, especially where there is glissando or portamento, and the effect becomes more pronounced during the higher sections of the song. These are parts where BREATH SUPPORT is most important. That is what I would recommend you focus on. I think the issue is pitch execution, not pitch perception.

another thing we work a lot on is breath support so my teacher might be doing exactly the right thing, that's good to know

 

it's an interesting thought that my psyche is tricking me into believing i sound better than i do lol but then again, that probably explains all the people on casting shows sounding horrible while thinking they're the next big superstar. when i listen to songs i recorded two years ago (where i thought i sounded okay but not great) i cringe a lot lol two years from now i'll (hopefully) feel the same way

[kickingtone]

One of the things I did yesterday was to find Dusty Springfield's "Son of a Preacher Man" on YouTube, and compare, note for note.

 

Broken down like that, it is obvious to me that you are following the melody just fine. I think that you are past that level. It is not about being a tone or half tone off. It is more subtle. For example, in the second half, where you had to lift your voice, I think that better breath support would have helped a lot.

 

Of course, we don't normally "stare" at songs note for note. The sense of the "whole" comes into play.

 

I just think that you need stronger cueing of your pitch in places -- Is your pitch centre consistent? Which notes are your pitch sustain emphasizing? Are you "swallowing" (inadequate pitch sustain) some key notes (quite often things like prepositions which we swallow in normal speech but which land on key notes while singing)? Does the timing of the sweet spot of the note gel with the beat, etc. These things can give different pitch sensations to different people, even if the correct pitch has basically been attained. Many of these things you may be subconsciously intending while singing, but your technique may not yet be delivering them purposefully enough.

 

When we listen back, I think our psyche can "correct" all those things, or "add them back in" if they are missing and we are not monitoring them. We may not be monitor them if our particular stylistic interest is on other aspects of the song. So we may have to actively learn to listen more broadly to be able to assess our own vocals.

 

It is so common, that it is normal, and nothing to be surprised or concerned about. You certainly don't sound anything like those wanabes you referred to.

 

If you are one of those singers who "hones in" on a melody as a whole, everything will correct naturally as your technique improves. You will automatically find yourself listening deeper according to your ability over time, and instinctively improve a host of complex factors. Nothing to worry about. Top singers say that the process and improvement never ends.

 

If you are a more mechanical singer who likes to take everything to bits first, note by note, singing slowly, I think that correction can be a bit more tedious because of the complexity.

[el-liberty]

thank you so much you're giving me hope that i can improve. the last few days i felt a bit discouraged, two years of voice lessons and i'm still a beginner, but i do know i sing better now then i did then and i can improve. i just wonder how i'll ever be able to actually notice that my singing is good. my voice teacher obviously isn't 100% honest which i can understand but doesn't help me much, and i don't really hear it, so how does one know? lol

 

If you are one of those singers who "hones in" on a melody as a whole, everything will correct naturally as your technique improves. You will automatically find yourself listening deeper according to your ability over time, and instinctively improve a host of complex factors. Nothing to worry about. Top singers say that the process and improvement never ends.

i definitely learn by ear and just do instead of being too mechanical. which might have it's ups, but it also has it's downs. my teacher always tells me how singing some particular sound should feel inside my mouth or wherever, and i hardly feel it. i guess that's a big part of my problem, i try to feel what she says i should feel, but i don't (when i actually do it correctly), and i still feel like i haven't found "my" voice, i feel like i'm a bad copy of the singers i listen to but i'm sure i can improve that, too.

[1001gear]

Pitch wise, it's mostly the low register; probably just lack of use. Drill that area; long tones, slow scales etc...

 

The rest of the stuff is kinda "in" but shrill. I'd work on opening that up but that's your choice.

[kickingtone]

Somebody with real pitch issues tends to go out of tune randomly, or to be monotone, which is obviously not where you are. So, don't worry that your "guidance system" is somehow not working or will limit you! It's clearly fine, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to sing those songs anywhere close to the way you did. I totally get your concern, but the fact is that your ears are silently doing their thing, faithfully and efficiently taking you in the right direction, and only letting up their secret when you look back a year later.

 

It's a blessing in disguise, your critical ear leading your voice by just the right amount. They'll probably stay doing that graceful tango, forever. But there will come a point where nobody is talking about that catch-all, "pitch issues", any more. (They'll be complaining about something else, instead! )

 

I am not an expert, but I have learned an enormous amount by taking a lot of interest in the progress other people make in singing, comparing it with my own progress and incorporating new ideas. It really pays off. So, I get to see a lot of patterns and "strange things" that are actually normal and expected. Personally, I strongly recommend AGAINST using any app or doing any exercise to try to "recalibrate" your sense of pitch. People will call just about anything a "pitch issue", including when your pitch sense is fine, but pitch is being affected by a subtle side effect of some other issue.

 

I have come across people who have taught themselves to sing half a pitch lower than their perception!! I think that, when their technique improves, and the real problem goes away, they are going to be stuffed! A messed up psychological perception is not a genie that goes easily back into the bottle!! Kinda like an actor who learns to stutter for a particular role, and later discovers that he can't stop!

 

Anyway, I am glad to hear that you are taking heart. I don't really want to interfere with what your teacher is teaching you, but I can't resist posting the following vids. I just get the sense that your voice will take off with the right breath support method, given that it sounds strong in other areas. Michael Trimble nails it when he says that "the breath moves everything"...

 

[video=youtube;rrqZAp5gWAE]

 

[video=youtube;wfMpvbYFO-U]

 

 

[davie]

Hi and welcome to the forum,

 

I think you have a naturally good sounding voice. It might be a bit off here or there but it's nothing that can't be improved upon. I'm hearing some issues in the voice; the phonation tends to get shaky on some spots, which I suspect is possibly due to a posture and breath support issue. These two things are often overlooked in a singer's training but are critical to the core of singer's sound. If a singer's posture is collapsed on itself then it becomes very difficult to maintain an even flow of breath. It also makes it difficult to hold back breath pressure. This makes singing higher notes more difficult too because there is a tendency to push too much air on high notes, aka forcing chest voice. In my opinion, it sounds like there is too chest voice being using on your higher notes. This can cause over-thickening of the vocal cords can cause a singer to sing flat.

 

From a technical training aspect, pay extra attention to your body posture. Make sure the spine is tall and straight and the ribcage is suspended high but at the same time without tension. Also work on engaging the body more to hold back the breath pressure. Then gradually work to find the balance between chest and head registers.

 

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

[happwith12strin]

ilistrned to two songs your voice souned great lots of potential sounds like volume control ie a level volume you should be using a hand held condenser vocal mic a dynamic mic forces you to sing louder again your voicr sounds nice!! 

[el-liberty]

thank you so much, guys! And sorry it took me forever to respond, I was a little demotivated for a while and didn't sing much, but I'm trying to get back on track It's very motivating to hear that you guys think my voice isn't too bad.

I'm working on my breath support and posture, I do sit down when I record these songs at home but have been thinking about finding a way to record while standing up. I use my laptop's mic and don't have any table that's high enough so it can record properly while I'm standing, I need to work something out   And I also try to engage my body more, which I find especially hard. It feels kind of weird and silly (especially in front of people, like my voice teacher or at karaoke bars) to move while singing, even though I know it looks weirder if I just stand around lol I guess I just have to get over my embarrassment.

Maybe I should think about getting a good mic, this might help me hear better when I'm not on key, maybe? I find my laptop's mic surprisingly good so I never gave it a thought, but maybe this could further motivate me, thank you for that input

I'm listening to old recordings (I started at the end of 2013) and I do notice a lot of progress, which is a big motivator, too! I didn't use as much chest voice back then, I think, but I think I'm doing it because I think that's what supporting the voice is. It's not, huh? lol

[junctureengraving]

How come you record your vocals?

[el-liberty]

2 hours ago, junctureengraving said:

How come you record your vocals?

Do you mean why or how?

If why: because I want to know how I sound so I can know what I need to work on. Obviously this doesn't work quite as well as I thought lol

If how: I use the built-in microphone from my laptop. I think it's decent enough but I'm thinking about buying a better one, I'd hope to hear more clearly then.

[el-liberty]

hey guys!

I recorded two new songs, listened to my singing together with the originals and thought I was at least kind of on key this time lol and again got the feedback that I was not. Could you give it a listen and tell me what you think? I thought I did okay on the Amy Winehouse Cover (I heard love is blind) and not so good on the Alicia Keys one, because I wasn't feeling too good when I recorded it and had stomach issues that interfere with my singing a lot, but I really don't know anymore lol

I did buy a good microphone (the Rode NT 1A) and feel like that was a good idea, since I now can record standing up - I was always sitting in front of my laptop and like you guys said, posture is important. but I still don't really hear when I'm off. I did find a nice app (instuner) that might help me a bit, but I'm getting frustrated with this

https://soundcloud.com/el-suzu/un-thinkable

 

[kickingtone]

Same issues, I'm afraid.

I wouldn't get too caught up on key and pitch. I don't think that the problem is there.

You are picking songs that are challenging your vocal speed and agility. No matter how good your pitch sense is, if your technique is not delivering the note on cue, there will be problems and  most people will simply blame your pitch sense.

I listened to the original, and looked up Amy Winehouse on Wikipedia to find out about her singing background - a lot of jazz, by the looks of things. And..."She was known for her deep, expressive contralto vocals".

On this particular song, I can hear the lows in her timbre balancing the tone, and she is using a lot of dynamic, and switching register all over the place, in a controlled way. Not all vocal techniques allow you to do that so easily. You need to find the right one.

(Pay careful attention to any "stomach issues", and make sure that they are not being caused by the singing. It has been known to happen.)

 

[el-liberty]

thank you for your reply so you think I should use a different technique or find different/easier songs to sing? I'm not sure I have any idea how to do either lol I sung Rehab and Me & Mr Jones in my singing lessons and my teacher said these songs fit my voice, but she also kind of suggested I change my tone a lot (especially on Rehab), it sounded unnatural and didn't feel good but she said it sounded good. I felt like I was just imitating Amy, and not good lol

She keeps complimenting my low notes so I try to find songs that allow me to train those more, even though I have more fun singing higher songs (but I feel like I'm ruining my voice) - I feel like I have no idea what songs are the right ones for me and my teacher really isn't great at suggesting any songs.

I don't think my stomach issues are caused by the singing, they're mostly stress-related (I have chronic gastritis), but I will pay closer attention to this. My stomach is often very tense, especially in the morning when I didn't eat yet I can't even lift my stomach while breathing because it's so tense. I'm in psychotherapy and we talk about these issues a lot, too, but I feel like I'm not really going anywhere, no matter how I try to work on it. My voice teacher gives tips, too, but they're all how to help it when it's happening, not how to avoid it.

[kickingtone]

You can definitely do low tones. I can hear it the second clip. The problem I am hearing is on transitions. Your technique has to allow you to slide from low to high and back again, soft to brassy, etc., and do everything to completion with good timing, otherwise it will sound as if the pitch is off, even if it isn't really.

(Sometimes, a problem with pitch is that a key note is slightly late, or slightly swallowed, or doesn't sustain for long enough, or is inconsistently centered [too dark/bright]. It's not that the pitch is necessarily out, it's just that it isn't "jumping out" at the listener. That's less of a problem listening to your own vocals, because you know what to focus on, and the pitch doesn't need to jump out at you. I liken it to reading your own writing. It's a lot easier for you than everyone else, so you have to take that into account when writing clearly.)

That's why I think that you don't have a pitch issue, only a delivery issue.

I wouldn't recommend anything artificial to improve it. Just play around with sirens, arpeggios, yodely type things, etc. to improve flexibility and agility. You don't have to change technique wholesale. You can borrow/add bits from different techniques. Find a method that makes arpeggios and things easy, for example, and borrow bits from it.

46 minutes ago, el-liberty said:

I don't think my stomach issues are caused by the singing, they're mostly stress-related (I have chronic gastritis), but I will pay closer attention to this. My stomach is often very tense, especially in the morning when I didn't eat yet I can't even lift my stomach while breathing because it's so tense. I'm in psychotherapy and we talk about these issues a lot, too, but I feel like I'm not really going anywhere, no matter how I try to work on it. My voice teacher gives tips, too, but they're all how to help it when it's happening, not how to avoid it.

Oh, that sounds rough. Sounds as if your digestive system is doing overtime overnight, for some reason. Stress can also have a dietary origin. I hope that the singing isn't exacerbating anything. Trouble with chronic conditions is that you can try different things, but the improvement feeds through too slowly for you to easily know what does or does not work. Anyway, I wish you all the best with that, and hope you find a breakthrough. Keep singing. It's a great tonic.

[el-liberty]

again, thank you so much! It's so great of all you guys to take your time to listen to user's songs and give these great tips, all in a way that's really motivating I tend to get frustrated and demotivated so quickly, but then reading your input really helps

I'll definitely talk to my voice teacher about this, but I think she really knows where my issues are, since she's pretty much doing these things you all suggest. I just don't have that much time to practice right now and see her only every few weeks at the moment.

I just recorded myself singing along with the original singers and I think this might've shown me what you already said. It's not really a pitch issue, there's underlying problems and I need to work on those.

If any of you have any singers I could check out that could suit my voice, please let me know! I think I'll try to stick to more basic songs for a while. I'm thinking about singing some christmas songs, they're usually not as complex, I'd say (like the christmas song, the christmas waltz, silver bells). I might post new recordings someday if I feel like I made some progress

[kickingtone]

Basic songs are excellent for practising, because any challenges are more isolated, allowing you to focus better. But then you can use the benefit of that practice, and incorporate it into your more complex song, piece by piece. I think it's a good idea to do both.

Practice needn't be singing a whole song, either. Pick out each challenge and repeat it (rather than the entire song). Look for new techniques to help you. Look for other songs with the same challenge. Sing the part with the challenge. That targeted approach makes better use of your time.

I had another couple of listens to you singing "I heard love is blind", and I would have to be splitting hairs to criticize the pitch, itself.

But then, take for example a phrase like, "he's just not as tall" (24s + on your clip). Listen to

singing it, and listen carefully to the dynamic -- the movement -- call-relax-call-relax on "he's-just-not-as".  She is transitioning between the cry/call registration and a low mellow registration, and it all happens pretty quickly, giving it that bounce and energy. On the other hand, you seem to be trying to stay in the cry registration. The lower notes sound thin and swallowed in that register, and the dynamic is gone. That "seems" to mess with the overall pitch, because these are important notes but other notes have been allowed to take the focus away. The correct notes are there, but your choice of dynamic means that they are not being emphasized.

You can do that low mellow stuff. I've heard you do it. But can you transition to and from it quickly enough?

[kickingtone]

On 11/14/2019 at 9:45 PM, el-liberty said:

If any of you have any singers I could check out that could suit my voice, please let me know!

I like the song. I'm not a fan of the crackly kind of singing, though! But hey, what matters my voice in the wilderness?

I prefer the smoother vocals...

Then there's that kind of teeny, bratty sound that seems to work wonders for this oldie...

(She avoids nasal interference, too).

Apart from everything else, I think it's a great exercise. If you can't get the smooth slide/release and clean vowel changes on "manic monday" in the refrain, I think the whole song is ruined! She nails the whiny vibe, too. Great song!

 

I think that you could sing any of those.

If you manage this one, hats off! The vocals are so important, that it's almost a cappella. You need to be very accurate, nothing to hide behind.

 

[kickingtone]

Ha! This should suit your voice...

 

[el-liberty]

thank you so much for your effort!

the songs are interesting choices I would've never chosen for myself because I thought they might not be the right fit. I'll try each of them and I didn't even know Eva Cassidy but the song is beautiful, I'll definitely listen to her - thanks for that

It took me a while to respond again, I'm sorry, I just got a little frustrated again, even though what you said was very uplifting and inspiring   And now I got a cold and can't really sing, it's getting annoying because I'm finally feeling like I want to again but I'll have to be patient and wait for my throat to heal

If you don't mind, I'll post my takes on those songs (if I feel like they're not that bad) on here. I still find it very hard to hear when I'm not singing quite right and on key.