Experiments, Discoveries and C5 latest breakthrough!

[kickingtone]

I've got another bout of the singing/experimenting bug!

 

My latest breakthrough is in breathing, and is discovering the difference between the body following the breath, and sending the breath to the body.

 

Both are useful techniques, but sending the breath to the body has given me my latest breakthrough of being able to sing up around C5!

 

OK, it's raw, and needs strengthening.

 

But the great thing is that it feels completely comfortable and reliable, and now it is really a matter of letting the strengthening happen naturally, which will allow me to improve the tone.

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/btpmf020c5lvp

 

I tried the same technique with a couple of test phrases I have used before, a bit lower, at A4

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/hnir060lvp

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/fob020lvp

 

 

It was so comfortable, I was even able to do a growl onset with the first one, with no strain, at all.

 

And I've developed a diaphragm/trunk muscle strengthening exercise. Not for the self-conscious!

 

You take a simple song (I recommend a kiddies song) and sing it at normal speed. Then singing it as fast as you can, so that your tongue is starting to trip over itself. Play back and enjoy all the mistakes.

 

Then work on correcting them. Because the song is simple, your muscles know what to do. The limiting factor is just how much they can handle the speed. Great strength training.

 

Here is the song I am using, and my dismal speed attempt...

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/toy008lvp

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/toy009lvp

 

[kickingtone]

Alrighty...

 

I've decided on one of my C5 practice phrases. I will sing and record this phrase on and off for 6 months, and probably post an update at six months. Hopefully it will be greatly improved, by then. I normally give these sorts of things a year. Patience is everything.

 

STAYING at around C5 with no distortion (clean) is a lot harder than singing with distortion, or belting.

 

I use no vowel modification. Its all going to be about controlling the pressure of the breath.

 

Right now, I feel that I don't have the strength to close the sound off properly. That's all. Strengthening the right muscles helps you to relax. So, my exercise will go something like this..

 

Start from reference point. Make sure my entire range isn't shifting!

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/btrob013lvp

 

Go high..

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/btrob009lvp

 

Add more vocal cord closure..

 

https://soundcloud.com/kickingtone/btrob010lvp

 

Well six months ago, there were days that I couldn't even get out a C5, at all. Those days are behind me. So, even the above is a lot of progress. Back in 6 months...

 

[CosmicDolphin]

You do briefly hit the C5. If this is your goal then well done but it just sounds like range for range's sake, it's not a very attractive sound IMHO and doesn't automatically make anyone who can sing that high a Tenor.

 

High singing isn't the same thing as good singing..it sounded pretty squeezed to me and also quite pitchy ...as confirmed by Melodyne..the Ab , Bb and B notes are all flat ( pic attached..the red line is pitch )

 

Why do we never hear you sing a song all the way though ? It would be more enlightening than these short clips of the same few songs over and over.

[kickingtone]

You do briefly hit the C5. If this is your goal then well done but it just sounds like range for range's sake, it's not a very attractive sound IMHO and doesn't automatically make anyone who can sing that high a Tenor.

 

High singing isn't the same thing as good singing..it sounded pretty squeezed to me and also quite pitchy ...as confirmed by Melodyne..the Ab , Bb and B notes are all flat ( pic attached..the red line is pitch )

 

Why do we never hear you sing a song all the way though ? It would be more enlightening than these short clips of the same few songs over and over.

 

 

Dude, I've told you before, you are wasting your time with your complaints.

 

I don't think you have even read the OP and understood what its about.

 

Your use of melodyne is naive.

 

[CosmicDolphin]

Your use of melodyne is naive.

 

Actually I'm pretty handy with it.

[kickingtone]

 

Actually I'm pretty handy with it.

 

You need to know the key if you are to make much sense of the absolute notes on the trace!

 

What would make sense for that trace is to check the RELATIVE pitch, e.g by comparing notes that are supposed to be the same.

 

There is no reference note in any of those clips for you to do any absolute pitch analysis with. I sang from memory starting on an ARBITRARY note.

 

Having said that, I think that, melodyne is for robots. :-)

 

I can hear some pitch errors on the clip you melodyned, but they have little to do with your melodyne analysis.

[FelipeCarvalho]

Agree with Cosmic. It is pitchy and quite useless for any practical application as it is. Your focus should be on learning how to use your chest voice first.

[kickingtone]

Agree with Cosmic. It is pitchy and quite useless for any practical application as it is. Your focus should be on learning how to use your chest voice first.

 

 

I don't think that you know what you are talking about.

 

Try to read and understand the title and the OP.

[CosmicDolphin]

You need to know the key if you are to make much sense of the absolute notes on the trace!.

 

The key makes no difference..C5 is still 523hz ...knowing the key would only help if using the automatic pitch correction.

 

What would make sense for that trace is to check the RELATIVE pitch, e.g by comparing notes that are supposed to be the same.

 

Well it does, the grey box around each note is what it "thinks" the actual note pitch was meant to be according to concert pitch

 

Relative pitch would be no use in music production, everybody tunes their instruments to A = 440hz !

 

There is no reference note in any of those clips for you to do any absolute pitch analysis with..

 

Yes there is the notes reference are down the left side..the pitch centre is the middle of each "stripe" and up is sharp and down is flat

 

I sang from memory starting on an ARBITRARY note.

 

Well very impressive of you to know you had indeed reached a C5 with no reference point then.

 

Having said that, I think that, melodyne is for robots. :-)

 

Robots wouldn't need it if they could sing, it's a tool like anything else to use , abuse or otherwise. It's just as useful on certain instruments when a bass player hasn't tuned his guitar properly or his instrument has poor intonation for example. The polyphonic version was once thought impossible.

 

I can hear some pitch errors on the clip you melodyned, but they have little to do with your melodyne analysis

 

Well you can see where they are now too but the ears are the best guide..if you have good ears that is.

[kickingtone]

^

LOL, that proves to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. So there is no point discussing it with you.

[CosmicDolphin]

^

LOL, that proves to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. So there is no point discussing it with you.

 

I'll tell you how much I know....since you replied I've written a 2 minute piece long of music, sent the rough mix to the publisher in the States, received confirmation they wish to sign it for an upcoming project and agreed a fee.

 

What did you do ? Record another 4 bars of your favorite songs from the 80's in an inappropriate key ?

 

 

 

[kickingtone]

 

I'll tell you how much I know....since you replied I've written a 2 minute piece long of music, sent the rough mix to the publisher in the States, received confirmation they wish to sign it for an upcoming project and agreed a fee.

 

What did you do ? Record another 4 bars of your favorite songs from the 80's in an inappropriate key ?

 

 

 

I am not the slightest bit interested in your claims.

 

Instead of trolling my threads with a series of off-topic remarks, looking desperately for some kind of validation, be positive and open your own thread, and do it in the appropriate forum.

 

As for your confusion between pitch and tuning (tuning relates to accompaniment), open another thread and ask for clarification. I am sure there are many people who can help you. I can send you a link describing the actual physics if you genuinely want to learn, but I am not sure you will be able to understand the article.

 

BE POSITIVE and start your own threads! Discuss your own insights and progress. Or keep quiet. Folks can figure out for themselves what they want to take on board, without Cosmic Dolphin and Co. being self-appointed instructors. Just open your own thread and flood everyone with your unshakable "wisdom". It's that easy!

 

[Life888]

I use no vowel modification. Its all going to be about controlling the pressure of the breath

why though? why are you forcing yourself to sing in a way that is causing bad tension in the instrument. the voice sounds very strained and tense. the way to open up the high notes is by learning how to use chest and being able to belt, that takes all the tension away. when you sing without any lower support you end up just straining the top muscles....you can hit the higher notes, but it's not musical or pleasant sounding. should be pleasant, and resonant.

[kickingtone]

I hope that that was the last of the off-topic comments from Cosmic Dolphin.

 

Now..

 

For males, a fundamental transition in the shape of the vocal tract happens when crossing A4, If you can't manage to shape your vocal tract for this, you may get stuck at a limit of A4. To HOLD the shape requires muscle strength. Acquiring that muscle strength is what the OP refers to.

 

First of all, you have to FEEL the correct configuration. This is not about the sound, but the FEEL. Initially, you will feel the muscles straining. If you have isolated the correct muscles, the throat is relaxed, and the extra effort is in the trunk muscles and upper vocal tract, then there is a good chance you have a working configuration. You then need to practice it over time to strengthen those muscles. I don't worry too much about anything else at this point. Much later, I would focus on the vowels, which leads to control of tone. Finally, I would hone pitch.

 

This thread is about Step One, as most people would have realized. Don't let any self-styled "expert" put you off. Experiment until you feel you are starting to isolate the correct muscles. Relaxed throat is an excellent indicator. That is a matter of what you feel, not what some self-styled expert tells you that they hear. They most likely don't have enough experience. Don't let them become a barrier. Isolate, then strengthen. That is my opinion. If you have another way, why not open a thread on it?

 

[kickingtone]

why though? why are you forcing yourself to sing in a way that is causing bad tension in the instrument. the voice sounds very strained and tense. the way to open up the high notes is by learning how to use chest and being able to belt' date=' that takes all the tension away. when you sing without any lower support you end up just straining the top muscles....you can hit the higher notes, but it's not musical or pleasant sounding. should be pleasant, and resonant.[/quote']

 

It's not about belting, though. Not all genres are about belting, or use belting as a training method. Personally, I don't like those genres of music. I am totally unimpressed by screams, belts and those high pitched yells. They sound unpleasant to my ears.

 

So, I am coming at this from a completely different angle from someone who is into heavy rock, for example. Not my genre.

 

Of course the clips sounds strained. That is the whole idea. If they are not strained, then I am not developing the muscles. Training is not about sounding "pleasant and resonant". If you can already do that, why would you need to strengthen your muscles? You'd be good to go. So, I genuinely don't know what your point is.

[CosmicDolphin]

 

1.I am not the slightest bit interested in your claims.

 

2.Instead of trolling my threads with a series of off-topic remarks, looking desperately for some kind of validation, be positive and open your own thread, and do it in the appropriate forum.

 

3.As for your confusion between pitch and tuning (tuning relates to accompaniment), open another thread and ask for clarification. I am sure there are many people who can help you. I can send you a link describing the actual physics if you genuinely want to learn, but I am not sure you will be able to understand the article.

 

4.BE POSITIVE and start your own threads! Discuss your own insights and progress. Or keep quiet. Folks can figure out for themselves what they want to take on board, without Cosmic Dolphin and Co. being self-appointed instructors. Just open your own thread and flood everyone with your unshakable "wisdom". It's that easy!

1. Facts not claims

 

2. Not off topic, entirely relevant

 

3. Now who's trolling? I've probably forgotten more about this stuff than you'll ever know. Guessing you've never played in a band/engineered a recording session/mixed a record/worked an FOH PA rig ? Just the four bars of Rio etc then ? okay.

 

4. I didn't "instruct" you or anybody else to do anything, I'm not a voice teacher...I merely used a professional tool at my disposal show objectively how out of tune you were. That you can't accept critique and dismiss anyone who doesn't line up with your own POV despite is your problem.

[CosmicDolphin]

I hope that that was the last of the off-topic comments from Cosmic Dolphin.

 

No I'm just warming up..talking of which...could you sing 'Hanging On The Telephone" by Blondie in that Tenor voice of yours as I think it would make a good comedy ringtone.

[Life888]

belting isn't just hard rock , belting just means you have a strong base, i learned how to belt pretty good now without {censored}ing up my throat , and tbh I don't even like going back to "just using the top end" it feels weak and tense, this is why I am suggesting that what you're doing is not going to be the ultimate solution , that is if u keep at it and practice 4 hours a day st least . being able to belt isn't exclusive, it just means you have gained the strength and control of your diaphragm al the way through your chest to your throat to your mask. u don't have to belt to sing on ful voice , you can take the intensity down but still use the full open throat (dropped larynx) .

 

u won't listen to me anyway but I know exactly what you are doing and creating tension in the upper throat is not good---in my other post on the Ab5 I was not using full voice I was using the same thing u r ---you feel a tightness at the back of your throat when you get to that top pitch area---this is bad ---pushing through that kind of discomfort is not good

 

you want to have full support from the belly, and strengthen the thyroarytenoid muscles those are the biggest muscles , the way u r doing is trying to BYPASS those big muscles and only strengthen the smaller ones that are around it---I don't like rock but what do I like opera? because they use the same belting technique but they call it bel canto

[Life888]

it's not a tenor voice it's a very tense falsetto, like Mickey Mouse (not joking) that is what it sounds like

 

No I'm just warming up..talking of which...could you sing 'Hanging On The Telephone" by Blondie in that Tenor voice of yours as I think it would make a good comedy ringtone.

[Life888]

u want to talk about "feeling"? right? I can tell u exactly what ur feeling you are overly squeezing the transverse and oblique arytenoid muscles those are the ones at the back bottom of the mouth as seen in the picture

 

the higher u go the more you clench these muscles tighter until u can't clench any more----this is not good---u r not strengthening the muscles u r merely pounding them into submission and making. them do things they are not supposed to

[kickingtone]

Jeez another "expert" who knows everything, LOL!

[CosmicDolphin]

it's not a tenor voice it's a very tense falsetto, like Mickey Mouse (not joking) that is what it sounds like

 

 

Also not joking but it made me think of this singer

 

[CosmicDolphin]

Jeez another "expert" who knows everything' date=' LOL![/quote']

 

You said in the OP that it was " my latest breakthrough of being able to sing up around C5 " ...but on your Soundcloud there's a clip of you singing an Ah vowel at C5 dated three years ago.

 

At least you have a better mic now.