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Alabama wants to go to the SCOTUS (abortion ban passed)

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  • Originally posted by powbob01 View Post

    Have you been to Alabama? Parts of it are quite beautiful and if you engage the locals in very light conversation they seem quite. Nice. Go any deeper though and it’s horrifying.
    You could not pay me enough to live anywhere in the Deep South.
    I live four miles from the Ala state line. An often equally scary and amusing place. I could write a book, but I digress.
    Last edited by panhandler; 05-16-2019, 02:55 PM.
    Democratic DOO DAH Dance every Saturday night! Advanced tickets $5 or $10 at the door.

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    • Originally posted by powbob01 View Post

      The penalty for actually murdering a child would be far lighter than for a doctor performing an abortion.
      Maybe they'll start birthing and then killing them to keep the prison sentence down.
      Democratic DOO DAH Dance every Saturday night! Advanced tickets $5 or $10 at the door.

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      • Originally posted by guido61 View Post
        Any reports on how the people of Alabama feel about this law? Does it have broad support there?
        Here's an article from The Alabama Political Reporter (which bills itself the Voice of Alabama Politics):

        https://www.alreporter.com/2019/05/1...-this-its-not/

        I’m sick of hearing that “Alabama is better than this.” Or that “the good people of Alabama won’t stand for this.”

        It’s not and they do. All the time.

        It’s time to face the facts. It’s not the Legislature. It’s not the governor. It’s not Alabama’s politicians.
        It’s the voters. The people.

        They’re the problem in this state.

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        • Originally posted by TCM View Post

          Here's an article from The Alabama Political Reporter (which bills itself the Voice of Alabama Politics):

          https://www.alreporter.com/2019/05/1...-this-its-not/

          I’m sick of hearing that “Alabama is better than this.” Or that “the good people of Alabama won’t stand for this.”

          It’s not and they do. All the time.

          It’s time to face the facts. It’s not the Legislature. It’s not the governor. It’s not Alabama’s politicians.
          It’s the voters. The people.

          They’re the problem in this state.
          Talibama.
          Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

          -- Vaclav Havel

          The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

          -- Carl Sagan


          Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

          -- Joseph Brodsky

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          • Talibangelicals

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            • IMO it's forcing "christian values" on people. I think there will be backlash against Christians. The Alabama law is stupid and near-sighted.
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              • Originally posted by erok123 View Post
                IMO it's forcing "christian values" on people. I think there will be backlash against Christians. The Alabama law is stupid and near-sighted.
                It DOES seem to be kind of a Christian thing, I hate to say.

                I know a lot of people who are anti-abortion. But it's only the hardcore Christians I know who think it should be codified into law and other people who don't agree with them be forced to comply. Most everyone else I know who is anti-abortion (including most Catholics) believe it's a choice.

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                • Originally posted by powbob01 View Post

                  Akin is a moron. Expecting him to make sense is a fools errand.
                  There are a few people, in this thread, that seem to think he makes enough sense, that they are able to interpret what he said.
                  Is that the fools errand that you talking about?
                  Location: The Divided States of America
                  ''All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"--Edmund Burke
                  Man created science to create what man wants science to create.

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                  • Originally posted by Fred Fartboski View Post

                    Oh well. I guess it's back to the rusty coat hangars in dark alleys method.
                    Perhaps the Christians will pray to their imaginary friend and everything will come out okay.
                    "Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has." - Martin Luther

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                    • Originally posted by Tom Hicks View Post

                      A very old joke I heard years ago had as its punchline - transporting gulls across a staid lion for immortal porpoises.
                      Otherwise known as the Mann Act.
                      "Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has." - Martin Luther

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                      • Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post


                        I consider this:

                        "...If you don't, you either know English as a second language or you are an idiot."

                        ...to be quite an insult.

                        Please leave comments of that sort out of the discussion. You can make your point without questioning someone's country of origin / language skills and / or their intelligence.
                        Context is everything, my friend. e.g. "The evidence abounds that the earth is a globe, generally speaking. Rational people believe that. If you don't, you either know English as a second language (don't understand what I'm posting) or you are an idiot."

                        And I even gave the poster the benefit of the doubt that what followed after the word "if" did not apply to them.

                        I insulted nobody. And for the record, if someone, after reviewing the evidence at hand, believes the earth is flat, they truly are an idiot. I save that word for very special cases. Think of me as someone that never uses the F word. So when one does hear me use it, you know a line has been crossed in my mind.

                        Edit: On the rare occasion when I use insulting words, I like to use them in a "if the shoe fits, wear it" sort of way, and believe in the adage, "when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one you hit."
                        Last edited by Easy Listener; 05-20-2019, 06:55 AM.

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                        • I read an article yesterday that was talking about how the conservative right likes to use anti-abortion issue as a fundraising and rally the base tactic.

                          the article was suggesting that should abortion actually be banned it would be the opposite of what they want because it would rally voters against them. In support of that argument the article had posted a map of the country showing that there was no state where support for banning abortion was higher than about 25%.

                          and they use examples such as even the televangelist Pat Robertson saying this bill is too extreme, to support their view that the right wants this as a political football rather than an actual law.
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                          • Originally posted by SteinbergerHack

                            Intersting, given the Pew study that Arcades linked (see post above) which shows something very different.
                            Probably because most/all is different than all.

                            Combining those who think illegal in most cases with the smaller subgroup who think illegal in all cases.

                            I think it would be fair to say that the televangelist Pat Robertson will fall into the illegal in most cases category.

                            but even he sees this particular law lacking exemptions for rape and health of the woman as A Bridge Too Far.
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                            • Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              Alabama wants to go to the SCOTUS (abortion ban passed)

                              Alabama’s legislature passed the new ban tonight at least. Governor hasn’t signed it yet. Terrible. Obviously. By my judgment. Now we might see what Gorsuch thinks about the importance of precedence in this specific case.
                              This law, which was written and passes by an all-white, all-male, all Republican group in the Alabama legislature, is as much a publicity stunt as anything else. The "Religious Right" in that state want to ban abortion for the same reasons they want to ban science and everything else that doesn't agree with their twisted "morality" based on perversions of "What It Says In The Bible." Even though there is nothing in The Bible that comes anywhere near the subject.

                              Not only is the Alabama legislature sucking up to the right-wing extremists, they want to be "The State That Overturned Rowe V. Wade." It's a show-off move by a few people who want to look "important" and "successful" in "defending life," even though Alabama still has the death penalty and none of those white, male, Republicans would lift a finger to help the mothers or children born because abortion is now a major felony in that state.


                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              Setting aside the SCOTUS, I’d like to pose a narrow question to pro-lifers supporting the law: Why do pro-life laws like this usually have an exception for cases of rape and incest?
                              The "rape and incest" exemption exists because some people realize that a woman who is impregnated by force or family member (or both) is not responsible for getting pregnant. The former acknowledges the crime, the latter is a way of avoiding genetic birth defects.

                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              !! EDIT: Alabama’s law does not have these exceptions. I was confusing different states’ bills last night. We can still discuss my question, but I’ll say that Alabama’s law seems more intellectually consistent/integritous to me, though still regressive, religious, unfair, inhumane, insensitive, self-serving, unnecessary, cruel, short-sighted, uninformed, and *misogynistic.

                              (I’ll use the word “child” here to refer to zygote/embryo/fetus/baby.)
                              Alabama's new law is "slut-shaming," pure and simple. The attitude is, "YOU STUPID [STRING OF SEX-SPECIFIC EXPLETIVES DELETED] SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CAREFUL!" Or more to the point, shouldn't have had sex, at all. Meanwhile, the father of a rape/incest child, who is the real criminal, gets off with a minor slap on the wrist. Assuming he is even brought to trial in the first place.

                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              In your view, if a new child is conceived by rape or incest, is it any less worthy of the right to life that you believe other conceived children have?
                              A child should not be held responsible for the conditions of his or her conception and birth. In that respect, all children have the same right to life and living in society as everyone else.

                              On the other side of the coin, however, the decision whether or not to have a child rests with the woman, herself. No one else has the "right" to tell her, "You're pregnant, therefore, you will have this baby and be stuck with raising it, no matter how badly it ruins your own life." "Fatherhood," in the biological sense of the word, is a few minutes of selfish pleasure. Motherhood is a life-long
                              commitment that should not be forced on a woman because some man wants his two minutes of fun and violence.

                              What galls me most is how the "Religious Right" will "defend life" right up to the point of birth. After that, they want nothing to do with the mother or her child. At birth, they go from "pro life" to slut-shaming and denying -- and worse, refusing -- responsibility for the life they demanded be created. If the woman -- or girl -- is a single mother living in poverty, they refuse all forms of financial, medical and social support. If the child is born with crippling birth defects, they refuse to help care for it. This flies in the face of everything Jesus taught about caring for the less fortunate, admitting that the accuser is no more "righteous" than a woman who commits adultery -- it takes two to tango, and the man is just as guilty, if not more so -- and everything else. Where the "Pro Life" folks get their twisted notions from, I don't know, but I doubt there is anything specific in the Bible to support it.


                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              Back when I was religious and thoroughly opposed abortion, I didn’t think that exception made sense. I couldn’t find anything in the Bible suggesting that a child of rape or incest in the womb was any less human than others, so it was just as murderous and wrong to abort following rape in my old view. I THINK I WAS TERRIBLY WRONG AT THE TIME, but I think my view was consistent, and it still seems illogical to me for pro life voters to make those exceptions.
                              If you are looking at things from the child's point of view, I agree. Every life that is allowed to be born -- as opposed to one that is conceived by force and coercion -- is entitled to the same privileges as any other child. The question is whether or not a pregnancy caused by a sex crime is the mother's own decision to continue, or not.

                              The logic of the rape-and-incest exception is this: Rape and incest are crimes, and the pregnancies are result of that crime, the same way scars resulting from an assault are the marks of victimization, and thus not the victim's fault. Pregnancies resulting from consensual sex are akin to tattoos -- "she asked for it," therefore, she bears the marks of a "loose woman" and must be made to "pay for her sins" by bearing a child she doesn't want and can't take care of. Basically, "crime victim" vs. "slut shaming." Victims get sympathy, sluts get scorn.


                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              What are your thoughts?
                              My thoughts? The "Pro Life Movement" is made up of hypocrites. Their idea of "morality" is unjust and based on perversions of scripture that were taken out of context and twisted to "mean" something they were never supposed to mean. For example, the Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" referred to the murder of the living, not abortion or miscarriage.

                              The whole notion of being "Pro Life" is contradictory. It appears to be pro-pregnancy, with no regard for the life that emerges from the womb. Once a child is born, the "Pro Life" folks disavow any responsibility, the same way the illegitimate father does. There is no concern at all for the life and welfare of the child, and even less if that child has crippling and/or life-shortening birth defects.

                              Alabama's new law is intended to be a test case for the Supreme Court. The authors are as much intending to force the Rowe v. Wade decision and a woman's right to decide her own reproductive and child-rearing future out of the laws and into oblivion. Remember, the basis for Rowe v. Wade was one of personal choice and privacy, as much as anything else. Here, as in other things, it's a perversion of the law, based on a few people trying to force their "morality" on others who don't want or need it. The Alabama legislature and governor Kay Ivey should be ashamed of themselves.


                              Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                              *They could at least try to address this aspect by including in the bill some kind of responsibility or penalty for the man who impregnated the woman, such as making him pay for prenatal care (while the woman pays the price in the form of pain, labor, and permanent changes to physique and mentality), child support, and restitution for the woman’s pains... though of course poorer men wouldn’t be able to pay and may end up in jail, leaving the state to pay all costs... Or we could simply avoid all these costs by allowing early abortion, duh.
                              Therein lies another irony of the Alabama abortion ban, and similar laws in other states. The rapist, if convicted, gets a much, much lesser sentence than his victim. He may do a few years in prison, bragging all the while about his crime, while his victim is sentenced to a lifetime of single-parent motherhood. Even worse, the rapist can demand "parental rights" and visitation, whether he pays a dime for the child's support or not. It all comes down to the assumption of guilt on the woman's part. And "slut shaming" by the same sort of puritans who hung "The Scarlet Letter" on Hester Prynne. It's all about forcing women to be lesser creatures, property and "livestock." Religious scriptures have very little to do with it.

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