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Alabama wants to go to the SCOTUS (abortion ban passed)

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  • Alabama wants to go to the SCOTUS (abortion ban passed)

    Alabama’s legislature passed the new ban tonight at least. Governor hasn’t signed it yet. Terrible. Obviously. By my judgment. Now we might see what Gorsuch thinks about the importance of precedence in this specific case.

    Setting aside the SCOTUS, I’d like to pose a narrow question to pro-lifers supporting the law: Why do pro-life laws like this usually have an exception for cases of rape and incest?

    !! EDIT: Alabama’s law does not have these exceptions. I was confusing different states’ bills last night. We can still discuss my question, but I’ll say that Alabama’s law seems more intellectually consistent/integritous to me, though still regressive, religious, unfair, inhumane, insensitive, self-serving, unnecessary, cruel, short-sighted, uninformed, and *misogynistic.

    (I’ll use the word “child” here to refer to zygote/embryo/fetus/baby.)

    In your view, if a new child is conceived by rape or incest, is it any less worthy of the right to life that you believe other conceived children have?

    Back when I was religious and thoroughly opposed abortion, I didn’t think that exception made sense. I couldn’t find anything in the Bible suggesting that a child of rape or incest in the womb was any less human than others, so it was just as murderous and wrong to abort following rape in my old view. I THINK I WAS TERRIBLY WRONG AT THE TIME, but I think my view was consistent, and it still seems illogical to me for pro life voters to make those exceptions.

    What are your thoughts?

    *They could at least try to address this aspect by including in the bill some kind of responsibility or penalty for the man who impregnated the woman, such as making him pay for prenatal care (while the woman pays the price in the form of pain, labor, and permanent changes to physique and mentality), child support, and restitution for the woman’s pains... though of course poorer men wouldn’t be able to pay and may end up in jail, leaving the state to pay all costs... Or we could simply avoid all these costs by allowing early abortion, duh.
    Last edited by arcadesonfire; 05-15-2019, 08:45 AM.
    For those who prefer to listen rather than read and who ask these questions: What underlying crimes were being investigated when Trump obstructed justice? Why wasn't he indicted? Why did Mueller discuss indicting a sitting president in Volume II but not Volume I?
    https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K


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  • #2
    I always thought it was weird as well. Either you value the unborn life or you don’t.

    The best (most honest) answer I could get out of pro-lifers is they were taking what they could get.

    But as it is, being for the “exceptions” is simply another way of saying you are more interested in punishing bad behavior. IMO.

    As far as the SCOTUS goes? They overturned a precedent this week that many (including Justice Breyer) believe is a precursor to them overturning Roe.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
      Alabama’s legislature passed the new ban tonight at least. Governor hasn’t signed it yet. Terrible. Obviously. By my judgment. Now we might see what Gorsuch thinks about the importance of precedence in this specific case.

      Setting aside the SCOTUS, I’d like to pose a narrow question to pro-lifers supporting the law: Why do pro-life laws like this usually have an exception for cases of rape and incest?

      (I’ll use the word “child” here to refer to zygote/embryo/fetus/baby.)

      In your view, if a new child is conceived by rape or incest, is it any less worthy of the right to life that you believe other conceived children have?

      Back when I was religious and thoroughly opposed abortion, I didn’t think that exception made sense. I couldn’t find anything in the Bible suggesting that a child of rape or incest in the womb was any less human than others, so it was just as murderous and wrong to abort following rape in my old view. I THINK I WAS TERRIBLY WRONG AT THE TIME, but I think my view was consistent, and it still seems illogical to me for pro life voters to make those exceptions.

      What are your thoughts?
      Well in the case of rape, the mother has done nothing to create the life developing inside her and therefore, it can be argued, has no obligation to it, or at least no more obligation than anyone has to a stranger. As far as incest goes, I suppose it's another symptom of the rampant polyphobic/homophobic bigotry that pervades society.

      Or if you prefer to look at it more cynically, were those exceptions not present the chants of "forced to have rape babies" would drown everything else out, so it's a necessary compromise.



      While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

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      • #4
        Alabama.
        Democratic DOO DAH Dance every Saturday night! Advanced tickets $5 or $10 at the door.
        Bring a republican and get half off!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
          Alabama’s legislature passed the new ban tonight at least. Governor hasn’t signed it yet. Terrible. Obviously. By my judgment. Now we might see what Gorsuch thinks about the importance of precedence in this specific case.

          Setting aside the SCOTUS, I’d like to pose a narrow question to pro-lifers supporting the law: Why do pro-life laws like this usually have an exception for cases of rape and incest?
          I didn't know they did. I've argued for decades that in cases of incest and rape the baby is innocent and therefore it is irrelevant how the baby was conceived.

          If a law does make that distinction, I rack it up to compromise to get the law passed. It becomes a loophole that one could drive a truck through, though. It means all a woman has to do is file a police report saying she was raped, and, presto, baby is killed. Legally.

          It would create a HUGE uptick in alleged rape cases, IMO.

          I think you will find that most pro-life people you talk to are against abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

          And, truth be told, the issue is a red herring anyway. I believe only a fraction of aborted babies were a result of proven rape or incest.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SteinbergerHack

            No kidding. On this board, you guys see me as a conservative. When I lived in Alabama, I was seen as a radical liberal.

            On this topic, I view abortion as a purely loathesome, detestable practice.

            That said, I view government intervention in the doctor -patient relationship as even more detestable. Overturning Roe without addressing governmental limits of authority in this area would open the door to banning tuings like stem cell research.
            That is how I see you - I see you as quite conservative on some issues and more liberal on others. You are one of the few that I don't put on the left or right. Phil is another one. You guys seem to be able to support your position pretty soundly with solid logic - even when we disagree. I can deal with that.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post
              I think you will find that most pro-life people you talk to are against abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

              And, truth be told, the issue is a red herring anyway. I believe only a fraction of aborted babies were a result of proven rape or incest.
              Yikes. Good thing the pro-life stance isn't the law of the land.



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              • #8
                Originally posted by willhaven View Post
                Yikes. Good thing the pro-life stance isn't the law of the land.
                Make of it what you will.

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                • #9
                  This is not a good situation. I do not support third term or post birth abortions. Feel the decision needs to be made very soon after finding out they are prego. But something of this matter will put things underground again and dangerous. I don't think it has been signed yet?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In some places in the U.S., more African American babies are aborted than born.

                    https://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...are-aborted-n/

                    Makes me wonder if pro-choice folks have more sinister intentions than just being "pro-choice".

                    Regarding Alabama, folks will just go across state lines until the SCOTUS shoots this down....and they will.

                    Nothing is more sacred in this country than guns and abortion.



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                    • #11
                      Edit: WHOOPS!!!! There is no exception for rape or incest in the Alabama bill. I got my state bills confused last night. The only exception for Alabama is if there’s a threat to the woman’s life (even though pregnancy in general poses health risks).

                      My question is moot in the case of Alabama. One Republican representative I heard on NPR just now said this bill is directly designed to go to the Supreme Court to establish a pre-birth right to life. That makes good sense given Republicans’ traditional opposition to activist judges writing legislation.
                      For those who prefer to listen rather than read and who ask these questions: What underlying crimes were being investigated when Trump obstructed justice? Why wasn't he indicted? Why did Mueller discuss indicting a sitting president in Volume II but not Volume I?
                      https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K


                      My (old dead) band!:
                      www.steelphantoms.com/
                      PM me if you want to give me a Deluxe US Strat with locking tuners and 22 frets for <$800. Fancy Strymon pedals welcome too!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nedezero1 View Post
                        In some places in the U.S., more African American babies are aborted than born.

                        https://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...are-aborted-n/

                        Makes me wonder if pro-choice folks have more sinister intentions than just being "pro-choice".

                        Regarding Alabama, folks will just go across state lines until the SCOTUS shoots this down....and they will.

                        Nothing is more sacred in this country than guns and abortion.



                        For those who prefer to listen rather than read and who ask these questions: What underlying crimes were being investigated when Trump obstructed justice? Why wasn't he indicted? Why did Mueller discuss indicting a sitting president in Volume II but not Volume I?
                        https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K


                        My (old dead) band!:
                        www.steelphantoms.com/
                        PM me if you want to give me a Deluxe US Strat with locking tuners and 22 frets for <$800. Fancy Strymon pedals welcome too!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post
                          I didn't know they did. I've argued for decades that in cases of incest and rape the baby is innocent and therefore it is irrelevant how the baby was conceived.

                          If a law does make that distinction, I rack it up to compromise to get the law passed. It becomes a loophole that one could drive a truck through, though. It means all a woman has to do is file a police report saying she was raped, and, presto, baby is killed. Legally.

                          It would create a HUGE uptick in alleged rape cases, IMO.

                          I think you will find that most pro-life people you talk to are against abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

                          And, truth be told, the issue is a red herring anyway. I believe only a fraction of aborted babies were a result of proven rape or incest.
                          If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down.
                          To you I'm an atheist; but to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RogueGnome View Post

                            If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down.
                            Do you know what was meant by "legitimate rape" when that statement was made? If you don't, you either know English as a second language or you are an idiot.

                            I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you know what was meant. i.e. the speaker is guilty of a poor choice of words.
                            Last edited by Easy Listener; 05-15-2019, 08:47 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                              Do you know what was meant by "legitimate rape" when that statement was made? If you don't, you either know English as a second language or you are an idiot.

                              I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you know what was meant. i.e. the speaker is guilty of a poor choice of words.
                              Would you care to explain how “the body has a way to shut the whole thing down” was just a “poor choice of words”?

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