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An important view into the thinking of moderates and conservatives regarding Obstruction

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
    Your title says it's about obstruction of justice. Numerous legal opinions I've heard about that leave no doubt that Trump would be charged if he were not a sitting president.

    So, the window that you speak of is not worth looking through, IMO. That's why your thread moved off into other matters.
    Well, make of it what you will.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by guido61 View Post

      Not to mention anyone that ever once actually DID have Roy Cohn by their side. Biggest loser of all.
      It would take strong innate moral character to distance yourself from a mentor of Roy Cohn's stature in New York. Trump did the opposite. He does the opposite, because they are the same type of morally deficient person - Putin and Duterte come to mind as well. These guys are all bottom-of-the-barrel type characters - users, abusers, villains, thieves... I could go on.

      George Washington was the man who never told a lie. Richard Nixon was the man who never told the truth. Donald Trump is the man who doesn't know the difference.
      Venezuela is what happens when you have Trump without the Madison.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post
        This thread really delivers. The thread is about a window into the perspective of those supporting Trump regarding the Mueller report, but the content of the thread turns out to be a window into the perspective of those who believe he is the guilty party.

        This is awesome! And these posts are fun, kinda like watching a Tucker Carlson interview of a leftist is fun.
        This thread is about you being unable to articulate your feelings without help from Youtube, about how you again misrepresent the Mueller report, and how you're not willing to admit that you would have major concerns if a Democrat showed the same pattern of behavior regarding Russia.
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        Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
        For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
        Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
          It would take strong innate moral character to distance yourself from a mentor of Roy Cohn's stature in New York. Trump did the opposite. He does the opposite, because they are the same type of morally deficient person - Putin and Duterte come to mind as well. These guys are all bottom-of-the-barrel type characters - users, abusers, villains, thieves... I could go on.
          Yep. I've often opined that the only thing that separates Trump from actually being a Putin or a Duterte is that our American system prevents it. I've noted before the degree to which Trump and Kim are really the same person at their core. Only difference is Trump grew up the rich kid of a NYC real estate baron while Kim grew up the rich kid of a despot communist leader. Switch them at birth and I doubt we'd see either acting any differently today.

          Which isn't to say I think Trump is actively seeking to be a Putin or a Duterte or a Kim. I don't agree with those who believe Trump has nefarious goals to tear down our system so he can be some sort of despot ruler. I just think it's in his nature to push these boundaries as far as he can.

          And it's up to the rest of us to make sure the system remains strong so that he, and whoever with similar personality traits who may follow him in the future, remain unable to do so.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by guido61 View Post

            Yep. I've often opined that the only thing that separates Trump from actually being a Putin or a Duterte is that our American system prevents it. I've noted before the degree to which Trump and Kim are really the same person at their core. Only difference is Trump grew up the rich kid of a NYC real estate baron while Kim grew up the rich kid of a despot communist leader. Switch them at birth and I doubt we'd see either acting any differently today.

            Which isn't to say I think Trump is actively seeking to be a Putin or a Duterte or a Kim. I don't agree with those who believe Trump has nefarious goals to tear down our system so he can be some sort of despot ruler. I just think it's in his nature to push these boundaries as far as he can.

            And it's up to the rest of us to make sure the system remains strong so that he, and whoever with similar personality traits who may follow him in the future, remain unable to do so.
            I never thought about it but your Trump/Kim scenario makes so much sense. I guess we could say the same for any of these autocrats and Trump. They are of the same mold. They have the similar moral and ethical deficiencies. Would it be wrong to call them psychopaths? They certainly fit the description of narcissistic personality disorder. Is that a recognized trait of the psychopath?

            I wouldn't know the answer to those questions but I do know he's a creep.
            Last edited by Hoot Owl; 05-10-2019, 10:39 AM.
            George Washington was the man who never told a lie. Richard Nixon was the man who never told the truth. Donald Trump is the man who doesn't know the difference.
            Venezuela is what happens when you have Trump without the Madison.

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            • #51
              I suspect you and the fella in the video would have very different opinions of executive power if a Democrat were exercising it with the frequency and magnitude Trump has. I never heard conservatives (aside from some Nixon defenders (like Dick Cheney)) expressing such views prior to Trump. We certainly heard Obama excoriated by Republicans for executive overreach.

              As for a less situational, more constitutionally grounded originalist perspective on the "unitary executive theory," here's John Yoo from the Bush administration: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/72155...ecutive-theory You can listen to or read the brief interview. He supports the theory and expansive executive power by citing federalist papers. Would Trump fans agree with Yoo's description of what the founders would have expected the legislative and judicial branches to do in the case of Trump??
              Last edited by arcadesonfire; 05-10-2019, 10:43 AM.
              For those who prefer to listen rather than read and who ask these questions: What underlying crimes were being investigated when Trump obstructed justice? Why wasn't he indicted? Why did Mueller discuss indicting a sitting president in Volume II but not Volume I?
              https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K


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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
                I never thought about it but your Trump/Kim scenario makes so much sense. I guess we could say the same for any of these autocrats and Trump. They are of the same mold. They have the similar moral and ethical deficiencies. Would it be wrong to call them psychopaths? They certainly fit the description of narcissistic personality disorder. Is that a recognized trait of the psychopath?

                I wouldn't know the answer to those questions but I do know he's a creep.
                Sociopaths, but close enough.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by arcadesonfire View Post
                  I suspect you and the fella in the video would have very different opinions of executive power if a Democrat were exercising it with the frequency and magnitude Trump has. I never heard conservatives (aside from some Nixon defenders (like Dick Cheney)) expressing such views prior to Trump.

                  As for a less situational, more constitutionally grounded originalist perspective on the "unitary executive theory," here's John Yoo from the Bush administration: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/72155...ecutive-theory You can listen to or read the brief interview. He cites federalist papers to support the theory for executive branch powers. Would Trump fans agree with Yoo's description of what the founders would have expected the legislative and judicial branches to do in the case of Trump??
                  Personally, I see each situation as standing or falling on its own merits. I was a big fan of Nixon but he was rightly nailed and needed to go. I actually played the "what if he were Hubert Humphrey" game in my head. i.e. imagine Humphrey did this. It made the decision easy.

                  I do the same thing now. I agreed with my conservative friends on some attacks on Obama, and disagreed on others. What makes this one easy is the results of the Mueller investigation. When you don't accept the results, you are doing it wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                    Personally, I see each situation as standing or falling on its own merits. I was a big fan of Nixon but he was rightly nailed and needed to go. I actually played the "what if he were Hubert Humphrey" game in my head. i.e. imagine Humphrey did this. It made the decision easy.

                    I do the same thing now. I agreed with my conservative friends on some attacks on Obama, and disagreed on others. What makes this one easy is the results of the Mueller investigation. When you don't accept the results, you are doing it wrong.
                    The analogy here would be you wanting to end the game during the 7th inning stretch because your team is ahead and demanding everyone else "accept the results".

                    No where in any of the rules, laws, legal precedents or the Mueller Report itself does it say the 'results' end with Barr's decision and that Congress has no authority to take up the matter themselves.

                    Sorry, but thems the rules. You really need to accept this.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                      The analogy here would be you wanting to end the game during the 7th inning stretch because your team is ahead and demanding everyone else "accept the results".

                      No where in any of the rules, laws, legal precedents or the Mueller Report itself does it say the 'results' end with Barr's decision and that Congress has no authority to take up the matter themselves.

                      Sorry, but thems the rules. You really need to accept this.
                      I accept it.

                      Anyone else?

                      George Washington was the man who never told a lie. Richard Nixon was the man who never told the truth. Donald Trump is the man who doesn't know the difference.
                      Venezuela is what happens when you have Trump without the Madison.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                        I said "...he lays out not only why he (and I) believes what he does, from a raw cultural level..."

                        That is, you now know how most of us that supported Trump in this thing felt about it, and how we felt about the obstruction claims. You are getting a real view at a fairly detailed level of what many of us saw in that whole thing.

                        The person does not need credentials. His whole rant is opinion. And an opinion shared by many who don't share the views of the left.

                        You see, many of us see this as exactly what he implies, that trump was framed for a crime he didn't commit. And the rest shakes out from there.

                        And there is LOTS of evidence supporting that viewpoint. This is what Barr is now investigating.

                        FBI lied: Contrary to testimony, they knew the Steele dossier was fake BEFORE using it to get FISA warrants
                        links, please, supporting your statements that "most of us that supported Trump... felt about the obstruction claims" and "many of us see this as... Trump was framed for a crime he didn't commit."

                        finding an opinion blogger on YouTube that agrees with you does not mean that 'most of us...' agree.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
                          Yep. Sure looks that way. That's why Trump was moaning about Sessions' not protecting him. "Where's my Roy Cohn" and all that crap. Anyone who laments not having a Roy Cohn by their side, they're a loser.
                          Let us remember that sessions actually recused himself.

                          it's more than just a little bit ironic that the passage of time should make Jeff Sessions look like the moral and ethical one in the Trump gang.
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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Tom Hicks View Post

                            Let us remember that sessions actually recused himself.

                            it's more than just a little bit ironic that the passage of time should make Jeff Sessions look like the moral and ethical one in the Trump gang.
                            😀
                            He was part of the campaign that was being investigated. Barr wasn't.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                              He was part of the campaign that was being investigated. Barr wasn't.
                              But now we know about a Barr/Russian connection. This just makes things more interesting. Now it will have to be parsed out. God, bring back no-drama Obama.

                              George Washington was the man who never told a lie. Richard Nixon was the man who never told the truth. Donald Trump is the man who doesn't know the difference.
                              Venezuela is what happens when you have Trump without the Madison.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hoot Owl View Post
                                But now we know about a Barr/Russian connection.
                                No we don't.

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