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Union is what union does

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  • #16
    Originally posted by stratosaurus View Post

    From appearances, the most success of union organization, has been loss of American jobs to other countries & and pretty drastic union membership losses. Union negotiations aren't exactly a shining example of being successful.
    Really? You don’t think things like minimum wages, 40 hour work weeks, health benefits, paid vacations, retirement packages, workplace health and safety regulations aren’t shining examples of being successful?

    why not?
    Last edited by Vito Corleone; 05-05-2019, 05:37 PM.

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    • #17
      I made more as a union carpenter in 1974 than I do as a non-union carpenter now.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by stratosaurus View Post

        From appearances, the most success of union organization, has been loss of American jobs to other countries
        Yeah. If only we never had unions so we could have kept wages so low and working conditions so poor that we could compete with third world countries for labor. America would have been so much better off.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by guido61 View Post

          Having the "right" to do something doesn't give one the practical ability to do so.


          Hence the need to move from the "individuals negotiating" method to forming unions in the FIRST place.

          But you knew this.

          At least I HOPE you did.
          Yeah I know.

          Some people don't have marketable enough skills to negotiate their own salaries.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by nedezero1 View Post

            Yeah I know.

            Some people don't have marketable enough skills to negotiate their own salaries.
            Make that "most people".
            Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

            -- Vaclav Havel

            The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

            -- Carl Sagan


            Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

            -- Joseph Brodsky

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

              Make that "most people".
              Hmmmm.....might have to ponder that.

              Most positions I see out there have a "salary range" based on qualifications, experience etc. That's where the negation come in.

              Of course there's the static hourly labor rates offered at some entry level jobs, but I don't know if that accounts for most people.

              Even in the skilled trades, I've observed the folks with the most experience, skills & qualifications can usually name their price within market tolerances.






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              • #22
                Originally posted by nedezero1 View Post

                Yeah I know.

                Some people don't have marketable enough skills to negotiate their own salaries.
                A vast number of jobs don’t require employees with “marketable skills” They just need employees with sufficient skills and lots of them.

                If they are going to hire en masse, then the employees getting together and negotiating as such seems to make sense

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by roughtrade View Post

                  What would you offer up as an alternate collective bargaining arrangement?
                  Individual agreements based on individual performance and qualifications?
                  Lease this space!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nedezero1 View Post
                    I'll always support people's right to organize their labor and collective bargain.
                    I'll always also support the right of a business owner to decide whether or not to bargain with said unions.
                    I'll always also support the right of individuals to negotiate the terms of their employment as individuals with no extortion from unions.
                    This - precisely!
                    Lease this space!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                      A vast number of jobs don’t require employees with “marketable skills” They just need employees with sufficient skills and lots of them.

                      If they are going to hire en masse, then the employees getting together and negotiating as such seems to make sense
                      Sure - and it makes sense as long as the government stays out of it.
                      Lease this space!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

                        Individual agreements based on individual performance and qualifications?
                        Maybe you can relieve that :idk; by looking up the history of why unions began in the first place

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

                          Sure - and it makes sense as long as the government stays out of it.
                          Without government getting into it, unions never would have been able to form.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by guido61 View Post

                            Really? You don’t think things like minimum wages, 40 hour work weeks, health benefits, paid vacations, retirement packages, workplace health and safety regulations aren’t shining examples of being successful?

                            why not?
                            What I"m saying is, that, from appearance, the ever decreasing membership & strength of the unions are currently not a very good example of being successful. You can't live & survive off of past successes, in an ever changing business environment. Unions have not evolved to keep up with the current workplace models. They created a culture that worked for the past, but is not suitable for the present.
                            Those same wage, benefits, vacation, retirement, health & safety battles that they won, are now sinking many of the unions into an overburdening debt. Retirement & health benefits are being cut for those who have retired & expected to see a fix, steady income. Kinda along the same lines as the upcoming Social Security shortfall, the union membership is currently not high enough to support the negotiated & promised benefits of current retirees. Are they successful, when they are unable to deliver the supposed benefits that were promised?
                            I say no.
                            Location: The Divided States of America
                            ''All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"--Edmund Burke
                            Man created science to create what man wants science to create.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nedezero1 View Post

                              Hmmmm.....might have to ponder that.

                              Most positions I see out there have a "salary range" based on qualifications, experience etc. That's where the negation come in.

                              Of course there's the static hourly labor rates offered at some entry level jobs, but I don't know if that accounts for most people.

                              Even in the skilled trades, I've observed the folks with the most experience, skills & qualifications can usually name their price within market tolerances.
                              The labor market has limited demand for people with enough experience, skills and qualifications to be able to negotiate a higher salary.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

                                Individual agreements based on individual performance and qualifications?
                                Oh the horror....

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