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  • Originally posted by prolurkerguy View Post

    You seem more confused than the Trumpniks at this point- you seem unable to discern what socialism is or isn’t, and have changed your stance multiple times.
    I change my stance as I get more information. Where my previous assumptions were corrected by others, Red Ant, for example, I have altered those opinions according to the information presented. Compare that with someone who gets an idea, gets it wrong, then refuses to admit either his error or the facts.

    Marxist Socialism -- The workers as a group own the factories and farms. As a group, they share in the profits

    Soviet Socialism -- The government owns the factories, farms, etc, tells the workers what to produce and keeps all the profits.

    Democracy with Socialism -- The government doesn't own the means of production, but it does own some things, like hospitals and universities. This gives everyone free medical care, education, etc. It is not "socialism" as defined in the previous two examples; it's "social welfare."

    Trump "Socialism" -- This does not exist, except as a fear mongering tactic. The closest it comes is government-run social welfare and education. The problem with a state-run social welfare system is that "free enterprise" is unable to milk people dry. Trump and his rich cronies see this is restraint of trade or some such thing. But they can't come straight out and say, "government social welfare programs that benefit everyone are taking money from the extremely rich," so Trump came up with "Socialism." His followers, who don't often look things up for themselves, hear this and think of Soviet-style "socialism" and equate it with the Soviet-style oligarchic dictatorship and freak out.

    If you want a simple explanation of how economic systems work, I suggest you get yourself two cows
    and click here: https://organizationsandmarkets.com/...els-explained/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by wallywanker View Post

      my post was directed at his comments/argument/premise, as in my previous reply, not at the individual himself. as this was, obviously, not clear to either you or him, to you i say message received, and to both of you i apologize - no personal attack on mister badger was intended. i continue to believe that the premise, as stated, is ridiculous on the face of it, and that the continuous argument presented that trump is a fascist or dictator does, indeed, just sound stupider and stupider every time it's repeated...at least to those who understand what those terms mean...
      I don't want to harp on this as you have already apologized in short order (thank you!), but can't help but want to use it as an example for ALL of us of how forum discussion often reads different than intended, and certainly is perceived different than intended.

      If you were indeed directing the post to his argument and not the person making it (as we all should) then it would have been almost childishly easy to make it abundantly clear to all, by something as trivial as changing the subject of the sentence away from "you".

      It just takes one small step on all our parts, before we hit "post reply" - a quick review of "am I being clear here? Am I addressing the subject, or something/someone else?"

      Apologies if I am being overly pedantic here, but as society seems to be descending further and further into what Carl Sagan called "the demon-haunted world" and discourse disappears beneath the waves of opinion-as-data, feelings-as-data and just plain old ignorance, I find myself being more and more of a crusader for a higher quality of discourse.


      Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

      -- Vaclav Havel

      The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

      -- Carl Sagan


      Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

      -- Joseph Brodsky

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mister Badger View Post

        I change my stance as I get more information. Where my previous assumptions were corrected by others, Red Ant, for example, I have altered those opinions according to the information presented. Compare that with someone who gets an idea, gets it wrong, then refuses to admit either his error or the facts.

        Marxist Socialism -- The workers as a group own the factories and farms. As a group, they share in the profits

        Soviet Socialism -- The government owns the factories, farms, etc, tells the workers what to produce and keeps all the profits.

        Democracy with Socialism -- The government doesn't own the means of production, but it does own some things, like hospitals and universities. This gives everyone free medical care, education, etc. It is not "socialism" as defined in the previous two examples; it's "social welfare."
        Still not how the taxonomy works.

        There is NO SUCH THING as "democracy with Socialism". What you are describing is an existent social mode, and its been described, analyzed and named over 100 years ago. It is called SOCIAL DEMOCRACY. It is a well-understood and nearly universally accepted definition - why must you (and Bernie, and the Democratic Socialists of America, etc.. ) insist on reinventing the wheel, and adding much confusion in the process??

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

        And there is ONLY ONE Socialism, it is ALWAYS Marxist. There is NO THEORETICAL DIFFERENCE between "Marxist" and "Soviet" Socialism - its simply the 1st time Marx's theories were applied on a massive scale. We need not get into the results, I should think.

        I've edited out what followed as frankly I don't see it being worthy of a reply.


        And here is why these seemingly niggling distinctions are vitally important:

        If you insist on calling Social Democracy by anything BUT its proper name, you and I cannot have a constructive debate about it - any of it - because we are not in agreement on terms/1st principles.

        If, on the other hand, we both agree on WHAT we are talking about, we can have a very substantive discussion on HOW MUCH Social Democracy is appropriate for our society, how to achieve it, what methods to use to pay for it, etc, etc.... that is how things get done.
        Last edited by Red Ant; 03-13-2019, 03:21 PM.
        Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

        -- Vaclav Havel

        The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

        -- Carl Sagan


        Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

        -- Joseph Brodsky

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mister Badger View Post

          Marxist Socialism -- The workers as a group own the factories and farms. As a group, they share in the profits
          That's what he theorized. In reality, it has never existed in any group of people larger than a few hundred.

          Soviet Socialism -- The government owns the factories, farms, etc, tells the workers what to produce and keeps all the profits.
          Not just Soviet - it was also in China, Cuba, and a whole lot of other places called "worker's paradises" or "Peoples' Republics". In practice, this is how socialism operates on a national scale, as it requires a very heavy-handed government to implement.

          Democracy with Socialism -- The government doesn't own the means of production, but it does own some things, like hospitals and universities. This gives everyone free medical care, education, etc. It is not "socialism" as defined in the previous two examples; it's "social welfare."
          I would call this a "social democracy", but, yes, I think we're getting to a clearer basis for discussion.

          Trump "Socialism" --
          Anything starting with Trump is probably a waste of time in intelligent discussion.

          If you want a simple explanation of how economic systems work, I suggest you get yourself two cows
          and click here: https://organizationsandmarkets.com/...els-explained/
          Last edited by SteinbergerHack; 03-13-2019, 03:09 PM. Reason: Anton beat me to it, but I'll leave it here anyway.
          Lease this space!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

            Still not how the taxonomy works.

            There is NO SUCH THING as "democracy with Socialism". What you are describing is an existent social mode, and its been described, analyzed and named over 100 years ago. It is called SOCIAL DEMOCRACY. It is a well-understood and nearly universally accepted definition - why must you (and Bernie, and the Democratic Socialists of America, etc.. ) insist on reinventing the wheel, and adding much confusion in the process??

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

            And there is ONLY ONE Socialism, it is ALWAYS Marxist. There is NO THEORETICAL DIFFERENCE between "Marxist" and "Soviet" Socialism - its simply the 1st time Marx's theories were applied on a massive scale. We need not get into the results, I should think.

            I've edited out what followed as frankly I don't see it being worthy of a reply.
            Kudos to you for having the patience to try to educate those who steadfastly refuse to learn. Despite 4 college degrees...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

              I don't want to harp on this as you have already apologized in short order (thank you!), but can't help but want to use it as an example for ALL of us of how forum discussion often reads different than intended, and certainly is perceived different than intended.

              If you were indeed directing the post to his argument and not the person making it (as we all should) then it would have been almost childishly easy to make it abundantly clear to all, by something as trivial as changing the subject of the sentence away from "you".

              It just takes one small step on all our parts, before we hit "post reply" - a quick review of "am I being clear here? Am I addressing the subject, or something/someone else?"

              Apologies if I am being overly pedantic here, but as society seems to be descending further and further into what Carl Sagan called "the demon-haunted world" and discourse disappears beneath the waves of opinion-as-data, feelings-as-data and just plain old ignorance, I find myself being more and more of a crusader for a higher quality of discourse.

              nope, i get it, and i agree - and that is why i said that i would attempt to be more eloquent in my responses. it's easy to type/talk/think `colloquially' while trying to type and express an opinion while the basis for it (and the previous conversations that lead to it) is still running through your mind - and all this with a stranger you never have, and probably never will, meet. one of the drawbacks of internet forums vs. sitting across from each other at the bar ...
              Last edited by wallywanker; 03-13-2019, 03:17 PM.
              __________________________________________________ ______________________________
              new sig currently under construction

              Comment


              • Originally posted by prolurkerguy View Post

                Kudos to you for having the patience to try to educate those who steadfastly refuse to learn. Despite 4 college degrees...
                At least I'm trying to figure it out. There are many who "know what they know" and refuse to change. Or even listen. For the record, none of my education directly involved economics. Or chemistry, for that matter.
                Last edited by Mister Badger; 03-13-2019, 03:15 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mister Badger View Post

                  At least I'm trying to figure it out. There are many who "know what they know" and refuse to change. Or even listen. For the record, none of my education directly involved economics. Or chemistry, for that matter.
                  How did you get a degree without taking any econ? It was required for pretty much everyone except fine arts and nursing where I went. I don't think you can get an engineering degree without at least one semester...and in my experience the majority of engineers are economic conservatives....just sayin'....
                  Lease this space!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

                    I don't want to harp on this as you have already apologized in short order (thank you!), but can't help but want to use it as an example for ALL of us of how forum discussion often reads different than intended, and certainly is perceived different than intended.

                    If you were indeed directing the post to his argument and not the person making it (as we all should) then it would have been almost childishly easy to make it abundantly clear to all, by something as trivial as changing the subject of the sentence away from "you".

                    It just takes one small step on all our parts, before we hit "post reply" - a quick review of "am I being clear here? Am I addressing the subject, or something/someone else?"

                    Apologies if I am being overly pedantic here, but as society seems to be descending further and further into what Carl Sagan called "the demon-haunted world" and discourse disappears beneath the waves of opinion-as-data, feelings-as-data and just plain old ignorance, I find myself being more and more of a crusader for a higher quality of discourse.

                    A clever man can post what he likes.



                    While she's talking, I'll use my mind to think of other things. She can't stop my mind!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

                      A clever man can post what he likes.
                      A girl has no name.

                      Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

                      -- Vaclav Havel

                      The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

                      -- Carl Sagan


                      Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

                      -- Joseph Brodsky

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post
                        ...and in my experience the majority of engineers are economic conservatives....just sayin'....
                        Before I get asked for a link:

                        https://www.machinedesign.com/news/politics-engineers
                        Lease this space!

                        Comment


                        • simple question !! ( :

                          Does a farmer that owns a tractor

                          own the means of production to plow a field ?? )










                          Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                          Of socialism? In a nutshell, it's when the government owns / controls the means of production.
                          Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

                          This. Technically its "the proletariat" that own the means of production, but since "proletariat" never existed as a force outside of Marx's fevered imagination, in practice it is, in fact, the government owning/controlling the means of production.
                          Thanks to SteinbergerHack in another thread he pointed out that

                          The United States Post Office was socialism baked right into the main body of The Constitution !! )

                          Personally I'm more scared of the anti vaxers !! ) YMMV !! )



















                          Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post

                          No matter how many times you make this idiotic post, it is still wrong.

                          The government never owned the production facilities that made the Saturn V and the Apollo components. Rocketdyne, Boeing, and North American Aviation are and were privately owned companies.


                          Like the example above of the farmer above

                          the manufacturer of components

                          in not necessarily the owner of the means of production !! )

                          If I own a functioning I-phone, a Camry, and a tank of gas

                          I (and Uber !! ) OWN the means of production for a taxi ride across town.

                          Toyota, Apple, and the oil refinery dont own the means of production for my taxi !! )

                          They just sold me the components !! )

                          I OWN it !! )

                          In The Known History of Man there has been one entity

                          that OWNED the means of production for a taxi ride to the moon and back !! )














                          Hear's another example !! ( :

                          A coal mining company owns heavy equipment, dynamite, oxygen monitors and

                          other various means of production !! )

                          Once again they OWN the means of production

                          not the manufacturers of components that sold them !! )

                          In The Known History of Man there has been one entity

                          that OWNED the means of production to mine moon rocks

                          on the moon and bring them back !! )




















                          Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                          Have you ever visited the Boeing plant in Kent, WA where they built the lunar lander? I have. Boeing owns it. The customer (NASA) paid them to produce it there. It is the means of production. Boeing's employees built it, paid for their time by Boeing.

                          On Sundays we had SCCA races in the parking lot.

                          You need to get better news sources.
                          I had to "LIKE" this post !! )

                          Paid them like the farmer paid for the tractor

                          so he could own the means of production to plow a field ?? )

                          Paid them like I paid for my Camry, I-phone and tank of gas

                          so that I (and Uber !! ) could own the means of production for a taxi ?? )

                          thanx for proving my point !! )




















                          Originally posted by sirfun View Post

                          Reading is FUNDAMENTAL !! )

                          but it aint critical thinkin' !! )

                          The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior.

                          Monthly Review | Why Socialism?
                          When I have these conversations I cant help think of someone who told me

                          " "FREE STUFF" for "NEGROES" is Socialism. "

                          I paraphrased a little there !! )

                          Now I'm SURE that's not what is going on here

                          but I do wonder if there isn't some unwritten definition/bias in play here

                          or as the linked quote above suggests an unconscious definition/bias in play here ?? )

                          I know the author of the linked quote above is not on the same level as the OP

                          but when reading that quote I immediately recognized a more eloquent !! ( :

                          Racists are more Religious Than Muslims !! )

                          Now the litmus test for that is

                          if Religion was water

                          would you be more wet from Islam or Racism ?? )



                          Originally posted by Red Ant View Post


                          Socialism remains defined by the question of who owns/controls the means of production.

                          Its a pretty easy litmus test.
                          ABSOLUTELY !! )

                          I AGREE !! )
























                          re: a round trip to the moon !! )

                          Originally posted by SteinbergerHack View Post


                          Pure lunacy.
                          I saw what you did there !! )




























                          Originally posted by Red Ant View Post
                          chuckle, and go on with my day

                          If you ever meet my wife,

                          and you might,

                          be sure to touch base about chuckling through the day !! )












                          __________-------------------------------------__________________________---------------
                          "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." ---Albert Einstein

                          What is more liberal than this ?? )
                          We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union ...

                          Comment


                          • Do us all a favor and try to make your future posts both more legible and readable please sirfun...
                            **********

                            "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
                            - George Carlin

                            "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
                            - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                            "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
                            - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

                              If you're asking me, or the OP, I would say the core of the disease is the anti-intellectualism that has always been present in this country but has run rampant of late, combined with declining educational standards and a decline not just in literacy but in reading overall.

                              An uninformed populace cannot make informed decisions. It makes little difference that we are literally awash in information 24/7, if people cannot parse it, digest it and separate the "wheat from the chaff". To do this takes a 'particular set of skills", i.e. critical thinking and analysis. Skills like these are largely acquired by... reading.
                              The problem with reading is that some people take it far too literally.
                              gp

                              "You speak with total clarity.
                              "And complete irrelevance."
                              --Howard Cosell. Said to Minnesota Fats during a matchup with Willie Mosconi.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post

                                The problem with reading is that some people take it far too literally.
                                A problem easily solved by more, and wider, reading.
                                Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

                                -- Vaclav Havel

                                The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

                                -- Carl Sagan


                                Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

                                -- Joseph Brodsky

                                Comment

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