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For the 7th straight year, Visa overstays surpass illeagal border crossings

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

    If you're not a citizen, you don't get to vote. IMO you shouldn't have, nor do you deserve, representation in Congress unless you're a citizen.

    Want to vote? Want representation? Then become a naturalized citizen.

    If I go to Australia or Japan to live on a long-term visa, I don't get to vote in their elections, nor do I have any right to be represented in their government because I'm not a citizen of those countries. That's significantly different than the Colonies before the American Revolution - those were British subjects who had no representation in their own country's government, thus no say in whether and how they were being taxed.

    I can see why liberals want to make sure this question isn't on the census, since it could potentially lead to greater representation for them in the House. Non-citizens can't (legally) vote, but if they're counted in the census, it can (and I suspect does) lead to more Democratically controlled seats in the House of Representatives than they'd have if only citizens were to be counted for the purpose of apportionment.
    So they shouldn't pay taxes? They're here as guests, right?

    The reason for the census is to count not to clear up immigration status or voting rights.

    In the technology forward areas and major cities it would lead to lower representation. This would be great to gain steam in our race to the bottom


    America has roughly 40,000,000 legal immigrants. That's 1/5 of the population. What do we do with them? Not count them? Aren't they just as important to both the economy and national security?

    If the objective is is sift out immigrants, then another process needs to be developed. The citizen question would be the easiest thing ever. Just check yes in the box. In effect accomplishing nothing.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Alndln3 View Post

      I guess things have changed since I last traveled/toured abroad. Back then I only needed my Passport.
      I believe it's country-specific; you might not need an entry visa if your home country is part of the EU, but most people who want to live or even visit need a visa to enter the US.

      Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for a temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. Visitor visas are nonimmigrant visas for persons who want to enter the United States temporarily for business (visa category B-1), for tourism (visa category B-2), or for a combination of both purposes (B-1/B-2).

      https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...t/visitor.html


      Unless they are part of a Caravan (rare event) with families helping each other out I can't imagine a poor person walking from lets say El Salvador all the way through Mexico and through the border evading border patrol and then miles through a desert to a city here. Then what? Rob a gas station? I can't imagine what small percentage that makes up.
      They often pay smugglers when they want to come to the US, and they transport them. I suspect it takes years of savings in order for them to afford the fees the smugglers charge them.

      https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ion-costs.html

      https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-02-...ildrens-future


      **********

      "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
      - George Carlin

      "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
      - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

      "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
      - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Alndln3 View Post
        Unless they are part of a Caravan (rare event) with families helping each other out I can't imagine a poor person walking from lets say El Salvador all the way through Mexico and through the border evading border patrol and then miles through a desert to a city here. Then what? Rob a gas station? I can't imagine what small percentage that makes up.
        Recent history has shown that people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador traveling in caravans toward the US tend to...

        1. Dwindle in size as they travel north as some people peel off to stay in Mexico, turn back, etc.
        2. Arrive at border crossings and apply for Asylum
        3. Do not venture into uninhabited border areas to sneak in.
        Last edited by BA.Barcolounger; 01-17-2019, 02:27 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by oldsoapbars View Post

          So they shouldn't pay taxes? They're here as guests, right?
          Nope - they wanted to come here, and as long as they're here, they need to follow our laws. If they're here on a work visa, then they are subject to US taxation, just as I would be subject to EU taxation on any money I made if I flew to London and worked on a record there for a month. I shouldn't be able to demand a say / representation in the House of Commons just because I was a non-citizen who went there as a visitor to work for a while, and was taxed on the money I made while I was there.

          If non-citizens want representation, they can go through the naturalization process. Once they become citizens, they have the right to vote and IMO, they then (and ONLY then) deserve representation in the House.


          The reason for the census is to count not to clear up immigration status or voting rights.
          The reason for the census is indeed to count... but again, the Constitution has always stated that the count is to be used for the purpose of apportionment. Also, as I previously pointed out re: "non-taxed Indians," the Constitution clearly implies that the count and apportionment of representatives applies to citizens, and not those who are citizens of other nations.


          In the technology forward areas and major cities it would lead to lower representation. This would be great to gain steam in our race to the bottom.
          Yes, I suspect it would lead to lower representation in those heavily Democratically-controlled areas (which is why the Democrats are so strongly against it - they most likely benefit from non-citizens in terms apportionment and the number of House seats they get under the current system), but again, I don't think representation should be based on the number of non-citizens living in any area of the country - only on the number of citizens. I believe the Constitution supports that, but that's a matter of interpretation that will ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court.

          In what way does limiting apportionment to only the number of citizens (and not to those who have no right to vote or to representation in our government) increase the "race to the bottom?"

          Second, how do you explain the Constitution specifically excluding non-taxed Native Americans who were legally considered to be citizens of other nations? Doesn't that clearly show intent to limit the census count for the purposes of apportionment of representation in the House to citizens?

          Whether you think it does or not, I suspect the issue is headed for the SCOTUS, and they'll make the final decision... and that point is going to be one of the ones that is presented to them in oral arguments.


          America has roughly 40,000,000 legal immigrants. That's 1/5 of the population.
          First, please provide a link to substantiate that factual claim and the number you cited.

          Second, 1/5th of 325,000,000 (the current population of the USA) is not 40,000,000. It's 65,000,000. The number you cited is roughly 1/8th of the population.


          What do we do with them? Not count them? Aren't they just as important to both the economy and national security?
          Simple.

          Put the citizenship question on the census. Count everyone, and use that larger figure for the purposes of infrastructure and planning, and use only those who are citizens for the purpose of apportionment of Representatives in the House.


          If the objective is is sift out immigrants, then another process needs to be developed. The citizen question would be the easiest thing ever. Just check yes in the box. In effect accomplishing nothing.
          Not if you make it a federal offense to lie on the Census form - which I believe it already is. But I do agree that "another process" needs to be used to "sift out (illegal) immigrants." The census isn't well-suited to that purpose, and since I believe it's important to get as accurate of a count as possible, I would not be in favor of using census data for the purpose of "sifting out" or going after illegal immigrants.

          I support adding the citizenship question to the census only for the purpose of getting a more accurate count of citizens for the purpose of apportionment, and not for immigration enforcement purposes. Again, I think the entire count (including non-citizens, whether here legally or not) is useful for the purposes of planning and infrastructure, as discussed previously.
          **********

          "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
          - George Carlin

          "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
          - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

          "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
          - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

            Simple.

            Put the citizenship question on the census. Count everyone, and use that larger figure for the purposes of infrastructure and planning, and use only those who are citizens for the purpose of apportionment of Representatives in the House.
            The federal government already has citizenship data. They can simply crosscheck the citizenship data with the census data and get all the info they need for determining representation.

            Opinion...

            The reason they are trying to get the citizenship question added is NOT to make the census more efficient. They want it on there in order to scare people away from answering it, so they will be underrepresented in congress.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post
              Recent history has shown that people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador traveling in caravans toward the US...

              1. Dwindle in size as they travel north as some people peel off to stay in Mexico, turn back, etc.
              I think you're probably right on that point, although a sizable number (~ six thousand) appear to make it to the border, based on the numbers of people from Central America who were reported as being in the camps in Tijuana.

              https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...-trump/577396/


              2. Arrive at border crossings and apply for Asylum
              Many appear to be doing that.


              3. Do not venture into uninhabited border areas to sneak in.
              Can you substantiate that? Are you claiming that none of them have tried to do that?
              **********

              "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
              - George Carlin

              "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
              - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

              "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
              - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by panhandler View Post

                I agree. It sure does have multiple fronts. None of which a physical wall will fix.
                Locking your car will not "fix" the risk of it getting stolen. But it drastically reduces the risk. i.e. the physical wall will most definitely help. A lot. That's why so many are built. They work.
                EVERYTHING I type (i.e. not a link or video) is only my opinion. In a sane world, that should not have to be said. But then, we are not living in a sane world, are we?

                Comment


                • Tom Hicks
                  Tom Hicks commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Have you considered the possibility that those places were construction of a physical wall makes sense, that has already been done.

                  And that Trump's suggestion of a continuous wall is inappropriate.

              • #38
                Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                I think you're probably right on that point, although a sizable number (~ six thousand) appear to make it to the border, based on the numbers of people from Central America who were reported as being in the camps in Tijuana.

                https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/...-trump/577396/




                Many appear to be doing that.




                Can you substantiate that? Are you claiming that none of them have tried to do that?
                It is a supposition based on #2. If nearly all are applying for asylum, that logic dictates that nearly none are crossing illegally in remote areas.

                Comment


                • #39
                  Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post

                  The federal government already has citizenship data.
                  Really? From where?

                  That's one of the main things that the Constitution says the census is for, as I have previously substantiated.


                  Opinion...

                  The reason they are trying to get the citizenship question added is NOT to make the census more efficient. They want it on there in order to scare people away from answering it, so they will be underrepresented in congress.
                  Why would a citizen be afraid to answer a citizenship question? Again, IMO, ONLY citizens deserve representation in Congress, not non-citizens.

                  **********

                  "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
                  - George Carlin

                  "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
                  - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                  "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
                  - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                  Comment


                  • #40
                    Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                    If you're not a citizen, you don't get to vote. IMO you shouldn't have, nor do you deserve, representation in Congress unless you're a citizen.
                    The way most democrats fall on this issue, you get the feeling the illegal aliens are their constituents - or at least their voters.

                    EVERYTHING I type (i.e. not a link or video) is only my opinion. In a sane world, that should not have to be said. But then, we are not living in a sane world, are we?

                    Comment


                    • Tom Hicks
                      Tom Hicks commented
                      Editing a comment
                      American law does not permit illegal immigrants to register to vote.

                  • #41
                    Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post

                    It is a supposition based on #2. If nearly all are applying for asylum, that logic dictates that nearly none are crossing illegally in remote areas.
                    You haven't shown that "nearly all" are applying for asylum either, although I concede that many appear to be doing so.
                    **********

                    "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
                    - George Carlin

                    "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
                    - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                    "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
                    - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                    Comment


                    • #42
                      Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post

                      You haven't shown that "nearly all" are applying for asylum either, although I concede that many appear to be doing so.
                      This is another "unknowable", because the estimates for the caravan size varied wildly (based on ideology of the estimator).

                      Comment


                      • #43
                        Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post

                        This is another "unknowable", because the estimates for the caravan size varied wildly (based on ideology of the estimator).
                        That's the second "supposition" or "unknowable" that you've now admitted to.

                        So then, do you want to retract your claims about what "recent history has shown us..." in post #33, since the numbers are, in your words, "unknowable?"



                        Originally posted by BA.Barcolounger View Post
                        Recent history has shown that people from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador traveling in caravans toward the US tend to...

                        1. Dwindle in size as they travel north as some people peel off to stay in Mexico, turn back, etc.
                        2. Arrive at border crossings and apply for Asylum
                        3. Do not venture into uninhabited border areas to sneak in.
                        **********

                        "Look at it this way: think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that."
                        - George Carlin

                        "It shouldn't be expected that people are necessarily doing what they appear to be doing on records."
                        - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

                        "The music business will be revitalized by musicians, not the labels or Live Nation. When the musicians decide to put music first, instead of money, the public will flock to the fruits and the scene will be healthy again."
                        - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

                        Comment


                        • #44
                          Originally posted by Easy Listener View Post

                          Locking your car will not "fix" the risk of it getting stolen. But it drastically reduces the risk. i.e. the physical wall will most definitely help. A lot. That's why so many are built. They work.
                          I'm sure a wall would thwart someone too lazy to figure a way over or under it.

                          I know this... If I'd traveled a few thousand miles to get to the U.S. border and once there I found a wall. Do you think it would keep me out? Not a chance amigo! My azz is going over/under that wall!

                          And where do you get the rest of the money to deal with the other illegal immigrants after you've blown $20B on a wall that keeps getting breached?

                          There's only so much money to go around, and it needs to be spent wisely and effectively.

                          $20B for a wall is not the solution.
                          tRump is NO star player. The ball simply bounced in his direction.

                          Comment


                          • #45
                            Originally posted by panhandler View Post

                            I'm sure a wall would thwart someone too lazy to figure a way over or under it.

                            I know this... If I'd traveled a few thousand miles to get to the U.S. border and once there I found a wall. Do you think it would keep me out? Not a chance amigo! My azz is going over/under that wall!

                            And where do you get the rest of the money to deal with the other illegal immigrants after you've blown $20B on a wall that keeps getting breached?

                            There's only so much money to go around, and it needs to be spent wisely and effectively.

                            $20B for a wall is not the solution.
                            You'd be surprised. And here is some nice, fresh perspective:
                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b0ea7dc80a41

                            Every Senate Democrat voted for the Gang of Eight bill — including 36 Democratic senators still serving today. President Barack Obama agreed to sign it. Indeed, he praised the bill for including what he called “the most aggressive border security plan in our history” and said that “the Senate bill is consistent with the key principles for commonsense reform that I — and many others — have repeatedly laid out” (emphasis added). That bears repeating: Obama said building a 700-mile fence on the southern border was consistent with the principles of the Democratic Party.

                            Pelosi supported the Gang of Eight bill, saying at the time that “every piece of this legislation has had bipartisan support” (emphasis added). But now we are shutting down the government over a wall much like the one that Pelosi and Senate Democrats fully supported just five years ago?
                            It's all about politics for them. They are not representing us. They are protecting their jobs.
                            Last edited by Easy Listener; 01-17-2019, 03:54 PM.
                            EVERYTHING I type (i.e. not a link or video) is only my opinion. In a sane world, that should not have to be said. But then, we are not living in a sane world, are we?

                            Comment

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