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SO let's just open the borders

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  • #76
    This guy has his opinion, which I don't agree with, but he seems to be the culture genocide pushing type for the sake of a world unity, which I'm not so sure even he could successfully sell much less understand enough to describe. You can shake half-baked unity ideas out of the nearest tree but I doubt any of them are intellectually stimulated.
    - The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

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    • #77
      This guy has his opinion, which I don't agree with, but he seems to be the culture-genocide pushing type for the sake of a world unity, which I'm not so sure even he could successfully sell much less understand enough to describe. You can shake half-baked unity ideas out of the nearest tree but I doubt any of them are intellectually stimulated.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7204006.html
      - The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H.L. Mencken

      Citizens and Residents Of The United States and U.S Persons - USA PATRIOT Act Notice: You are hereby notified that under the provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act, you may be placed under electronic surveillance while viewing this or any other similar web site by intelligence or law enforcement agencies at any time or for any purpose for which they may deem fit, without your knowledge or permission and without the order or supervision of any court of law. As the provisions of the Act strictly prohibit, with fines and imprisonment, the managers of this site from disclosing such surveillance should it become known to us, you should assume that you are under surveillance while viewing this or any other similar web site, electronic mail or any other form of electronic communication related thereto.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Uncle Figgy View Post
        "walls don't work":....LOL it's one of the oldest technologies in the world....used by every civilization in human history, but liberals know better.
        Yeah let's us old technology to fix the problem, that's a great approach.
        __________________________________________________
        Politics are like sports, where both teams suck

        Maybe we can all just agree that Bush was stupid and Cheney was lying and call it a day. - guitarcapo

        Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post
        For the record: Hitler using gas to exterminate his presumed enemies does not equal the use of chemical weapons.
        Reprehensible as it was, gassing was a conventional and accepted method for execution at the time. It is a stretch to equivocate the two.

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        • Uncle Figgy
          Uncle Figgy commented
          Editing a comment
          Proven technology. Proven for thousands of years. Hey, maybe we should make wheels triangular, because "round" is old technology....

      • #79
        Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post
        I have seen many on the left bring up the days when there were no real restrictions on immigration into the US and it sure sounded like is was meant to be a positive example. So not completely out of left field.
        I've always thought of that point being a rebuttal to those who claim there had been far less immigration in a past, better era of America. The conservative constitutional "originalists" harken back to an earlier, purer time; the Trump theme "make America great again" harkens back to an earlier, supposedly better time. As some people look back to these "better" times in America, they may reason that immigration is a central cause of America no longer being so great*. In retort, others point out that there was proportionally MORE immigration earlier in our history and that immigration laws were originally much more relaxed. This is not an argument supporting open borders. Instead, it is a means of showing that halting immigration will not magically switch us back to an idyllic past era.

        *Note the correlation between looking back to a better time and support for a border wall. Trump, whose slogan has been "make America great again" has 80 to 90% support from Republicans. The number-one top concern of Republican voters is immigration. Discussing how our founders had had more open immigration is an attempt to show a dissonance between "make America like it used to be" and "stop accepting so many poor immigrants."

        So it seems to me.
        Last edited by arcadesonfire; 01-15-2019, 05:21 PM.
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        • #80
          Originally posted by BadDaddy View Post

          What Administration in the last 50 years has done more to address and work to control the problem of illegal immigration than the Obama Administration?

          Trump wants $5.7 billion to erect some fencing along the U.S./Mexican border claiming that will help control illegal immigration there, but he hasn't given any details on where fencing would be erected, how much would be erected, how much it would cost to patrol and maintain, what the expected results of erecting that fencing would be, or how erecting this fencing would compare to other methods of control in cost and effectiveness.

          If any of my representatives in Congress were to vote to give him that money without being able to answer those basic questions, I would vote against them in the next election.
          'They have to fund it so we can see what it looks like...'
          gp

          "You speak with total clarity.
          "And complete irrelevance."
          --Howard Cosell. Said to Minnesota Fats during a matchup with Willie Mosconi.

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          • #81
            Originally posted by Danocoustic View Post

            Well thanks, I guess, but I don't see the strawman. There ARE those who advocate unrestricted immigration, and for all the denial and obfuscation, there are those HERE who essentially advocate the same, as far as I can tell. They couch it in all kinds of blather and gobbledygook, but strip off all the dross, and there you have it.

            This is MY opinion, MY perception. I could be wrong.

            But I really don't think so.
            And there are those who oppose any immigration with the exception of Northern Europeans.

            The straw man Is in the attempt to paint the outlier viewpoints as mainstream.

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            • #82
              Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

              I haven't, but you know... mileage varies. I've never actually seen or heard anyone advocate directly for an "open border policy".

              I will say this... back in the USSR my parents and other dissidents would always use the example of US borders (no 20km "exclusion zone", no KGB border guards armed to the teeth with orders to shoot on sight, no walls, no barbed wire) to demonstrate what a truly free county looked like. Of course, the USSR's borders were designed to keep people IN, not out.

              I think I have a somewhat unusual perspective on this among the forum regulars, being an actual (legal) immigrant. My take is that border walls are antithetical to the essence of liberty that the US represents, but a sensible immigration policy (what that is is obviously up for debate, but "unlimited immigration" isn't sensible) and border protection are not. I support efforts to achieve border security, and oppose illegal immigration both in principle and in practice. But optics are important. Not only do they project the image of the US outward, they also influence how we as citizens perceive the country we live in. I moved here for the "shining city on a hill", not a fortress where we cower behind walls.

              I think we should continue to at least strive for the "shining city on a hill". If southern border security is an issue (btw, what about the much larger and FAR more porous Northern border? For every southern border crosser we get 10 from Canada), then by all means, lets secure it, but lets go about it like smart people

              Once again, I refer to the wisdom of Gen. George Patton:

              Fixed fortifications are monuments to man's stupidity.

              The last thing we need is a new version of the Maginot line.
              Curious about the highlighted statement:
              gp

              "You speak with total clarity.
              "And complete irrelevance."
              --Howard Cosell. Said to Minnesota Fats during a matchup with Willie Mosconi.

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              • #83
                I kind of get the idea that the point might be doing nothing at the border is about the same as opening the border.
                Last edited by EdBega; 01-15-2019, 05:43 PM.
                "Plunk your Magic Twanger, Froggy". Andy Devine

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                • #84
                  Originally posted by Opposite Day View Post

                  But it's not unreasonable to demand that the government be in control of the process without being subject to the "you hate teh brown people" nonsense that so delights our brothers and sisters on the left.
                  I think it would be easier if those most concerned about immigration, illegal and otherwise, were equally concerned about immigration across the board rather than focusing on one particular segment of it. As you probably are aware of living on the West coast, the Chinese are in the slow, but steady process of acquiring a nice coastal strip of the US stretching from San Diego to Seattle, but you don't hear anything about a sea-wall, do ya? If one is worried about "changing the character of the country", I would think this would be the most worrisome development - citizens of a nominally Communist dictatorship, obtaining green cards en masse (through both legal AND illegal immigration, I might add) and purchasing vast swaths of US territory one Orange Co. McMansion at a time? Talk about "people who don't share our values" and "dual loyalty"! ... Crickets.

                  I think immigration is an issue that arises passions across the electorate, and there is room in the debate for many positions - but the problem is that all of those various positions have been reduced down to two "mainstream narratives", neither of which are internally consistent and neither of which represent reality. Actually its sort of a tell-tale symptom of the larger disease that plagues us.

                  For me, the current predicament has been perfectly summed up by The Onion's headline on Nov. 7th 2018:

                  "Democrats excited to put country on a different wrong track"

                  Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

                  -- Vaclav Havel

                  The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

                  -- Carl Sagan


                  Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

                  -- Joseph Brodsky

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                  • #85
                    Originally posted by slodge View Post

                    So let’s just deport everyone who isn’t of white, European descent.

                    IS THAT THE USA YOU WANT TO LIVE IN? Seems like some of you, yes, that’s exactly what you want.

                    Not me.
                    The days of that thought process are numbered.
                    slodge, please start your own post.....You can do it !
                    I personally would be very interested in a thread started by you.
                    your pa pissing on others threads is a bit long in the tooth.
                    thanks for the spelling and grammar lessons though.

                    Comment


                    • #86
                      Originally posted by EdBega View Post
                      I kind of get the idea that the point might be doing nothing at the border is about the same as opening the border.
                      So, the logical question in response to this is...

                      Who is advocating doing nothing at the border?

                      Liberals and Democrats in the House approved tens of billions in increased funding for border patrol personnel, equipment, vehicles, aviation and technology. They also approved funding for medical services and residential facilities for detainees.

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                      • EdBega
                        EdBega commented
                        Editing a comment
                        More needs to be done including walls. I know that word upsets many here. lol

                    • #87
                      Originally posted by Grumpy_Polecat View Post

                      Curious about the highlighted statement:
                      I was being hyperbolic, for sure - I don't know the exact numbers. In fact, a cursory search showed various data but no exact numbers, so I am removing it, with apologies.

                      I did find some material that suggests it might be a problem. Of particular interest is this tidbit:

                      Mexican citizens, for instance, can enter Canada without first applying for a full visa. "Sometimes it's just easier for them to fly into Canada without a visa and then cross into the U.S., than to use a smuggling route out of Mexico," says Harmon, adding "it's cheaper to get that airline ticket and just come across."
                      A low-cost airfare from Mexico City to a Canadian destination costs around $400, while a smuggling operation across the Mexico-U.S. border will often charge five times that amount.


                      https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nation...nada-1.4863636


                      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gs-immigration

                      https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...tion-1.4760153


                      Keep the company of those who seek the truth, and run from those who have found it.

                      -- Vaclav Havel

                      The Universe is unimaginably vast. For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

                      -- Carl Sagan


                      Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between Bad and Good but between Bad and Worse.

                      -- Joseph Brodsky

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                      • #88
                        There will be a wall.
                        common sense helps you to see those who are against the wall.
                        some of you need to venture passed your bias.
                        unfortunately we have a have a huge amount of spoiled middle-aged fools that have the ability to to fool innocent children.
                        these middle-aged aged fools know their days are numbered.
                        I love nothing more than reading the post of the blissfully indoctrinated.

                        Comment


                        • #89
                          Originally posted by Red Ant View Post

                          I was being hyperbolic, for sure - I don't know the exact numbers. In fact, a cursory search showed various data but no exact numbers, so I am removing it, with apologies.

                          I did find some material that suggests it might be a problem. Of particular interest is this tidbit:

                          Mexican citizens, for instance, can enter Canada without first applying for a full visa. "Sometimes it's just easier for them to fly into Canada without a visa and then cross into the U.S., than to use a smuggling route out of Mexico," says Harmon, adding "it's cheaper to get that airline ticket and just come across."
                          A low-cost airfare from Mexico City to a Canadian destination costs around $400, while a smuggling operation across the Mexico-U.S. border will often charge five times that amount.


                          https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nation...nada-1.4863636


                          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...gs-immigration

                          https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...tion-1.4760153

                          Thanks. And that is interesting info, btw.
                          I cannot make further remark at this point.
                          gp

                          "You speak with total clarity.
                          "And complete irrelevance."
                          --Howard Cosell. Said to Minnesota Fats during a matchup with Willie Mosconi.

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