Are keyboard players necessary?

[rainbird]

Maybe it's just me. I'm posting this to find out. I've been

playing keyboards in (primarily) cover bands for years.

Recently, I've have decided that I want to find

a band which focuses more on originals, or at least not

bar-band dance music. So, I've been trolling the local

Craigslist and music papers "musicians classified" ads to

see what's out there. What I'm noticing more and more is a

tendency for bands to be looking for "multi-instrumentalists"

rather than keyboard players.

 

Lately, a few of them specify "bass OR keys." That one has me

scratching my head a bit...wondering if they really know WHAT

they want. For the record, I actually played key bass years

ago with a cover band, and while I was able to get the job done,

I didn't particularly enjoy it. Too much going on at once

for ME anyway - keys, bass, and background vocals. I suppose

I should count my blessings that they didn't have me doing lights

with a foot pedal at the same time. But anyway, thhis particular

"lumping together of skills" seems to me to devalue the the role

of the bass player in a band entirely -- to relegate it to something

the keyboard player does "on the side." IMHO, a bass player truly

makes or breaks a band. Doing it well is a full-time job. Or should be.

 

I *can* see the point of bands who are doing certain types of

material wanting two guitars, as opposed to one guitar and keys,

However, having focused my musical energies until this point,

on trying to provide appropriate keyboard parts and textures

in a variety of musical contexts, and finding THAT to be a

full-time job as well - it's a bit disheartening to see that

this skill may be coming to be devalued as well. Something I

should just be doing on the side of the role of second

guitarist. Do I *really* need to grow some guitar skills,

or have I just not found the right situation yet? Or...am

I becoming obsolete if I don't expand my range.

 

Your thoughts?

[elbow]

First of all... no single player is necessary... on any instrument.. There are plenty of gadgets and software that could replace anyone. But those things don't have that soul that a real musician can put into it.

 

I would have to say that you just didn't see the right situation. Around here there are a lot of guitar players (of course in many different abilities), a few bass players (real bass players), very few decent drummers, and keys or steel players are practically non-existent.

 

I will tell you that I have seen some bands where keys dominated (where it's steppin all over the bass and everything else) and that is not a sound that I am much into. But..... a really cool keys player, that is "texturing" as you say, should be in demand I would think.

[GZsound]

I decided to double on keys after we lost one of our two guitar players many years ago because I thought I could cover the backing parts and we wouldn't have to pay an extra guy.

 

All the time musicians are asking me where they can find someone that doubles on keyboards Somehow bass and keys doesn't make a lot of sense to me either unless the guy can kick keyboard bass..

 

Every now and again it would be nice to have two guitars, but we normally get by just fine with me just comping a synth guitar sound on the keys.

 

And the best part is we now have three lead players in a four piece band. Guiter, sax or keys.. which really breaks up the "time for another guitar lead" syndrom.

[curlymo]

In the two bands that I was in that were writing originals we had a keyboard player (he and I were in both bands together). Unfortunately in the second band he had been relagated to just filling in where the second guitar would be (before I joined the band) for so long that he never really found his own space in the originals by the time we started laying down some demos. The guy who was writing all the material was fired before it could get too serious in the originals. It's a shame because we had some good songs with loads of possibilities for piano, organ, and synth parts in every song...and not just as an after thought as I've noticed many bands seem to have those instruments, but as a vital part of the sound. I'm a guitarist and I really enjoy having a dedicated keyboardist to play some interweaving dynamics with. In fact, I worked out many of guitar parts in the originals (and adjusted many of my parts in our cover set too) to give our keyboardist extra room to stretch out and experiment.

I also don't see the point in the keys doing the bass. Interaction between the bass player and the drummer is vital to a songs groove/liveliness/whatever and is really what gets me into my zone and keeps me on track. I just don't see how that can happen when the bass is being handled as a double duty part by the keyboardist.

[rhat]

Originally posted by rainbird Maybe it's just me. I'm posting this to find out. I've been playing keyboards in (primarily) cover bands for years. Recently, I've have decided that I want to find a band which focuses more on originals, or at least not bar-band dance music. So, I've been trolling the local Craigslist and music papers "musicians classified" ads to see what's out there. What I'm noticing more and more is a tendency for bands to be looking for "multi-instrumentalists" rather than keyboard players. Lately, a few of them specify "bass OR keys." That one has me scratching my head a bit...wondering if they really know WHAT they want. For the record, I actually played key bass years ago with a cover band, and while I was able to get the job done, I didn't particularly enjoy it. Too much going on at once for ME anyway - keys, bass, and background vocals. I suppose I should count my blessings that they didn't have me doing lights with a foot pedal at the same time. But anyway, thhis particular "lumping together of skills" seems to me to devalue the the role of the bass player in a band entirely -- to relegate it to something the keyboard player does "on the side." IMHO, a bass player truly makes or breaks a band. Doing it well is a full-time job. Or should be. I *can* see the point of bands who are doing certain types of material wanting two guitars, as opposed to one guitar and keys, However, having focused my musical energies until this point, on trying to provide appropriate keyboard parts and textures in a variety of musical contexts, and finding THAT to be a full-time job as well - it's a bit disheartening to see that this skill may be coming to be devalued as well. Something I should just be doing on the side of the role of second guitarist. Do I *really* need to grow some guitar skills, or have I just not found the right situation yet? Or...am I becoming obsolete if I don't expand my range. Your thoughts?

 

 

 

Interesting.... i am a keyboard player ,, i play guitar as well....I havent spent alot of time on bass ,, but I am sure its a skill i could learn to do a decent job on . face it keyboard players can run a bass line with their left hand ... and double up the right hand with chords mixed in with melody pretty easy .. especially with stuff like blues and country..and basic rock... really good keyboard players can walk a bass with their feet and play chords with their left hand and lead with their right..... I question if you will find many original material bands that fit well with keyboards ... While i may have lived a pretty shelted life musically ,,,, to be blunt i find that most original material bands tend to suck. Very few on this earth have the talent to really write what i call good songs .... and even fewer can sit down and crank out a whole night of them. As for the bass or keys...... the person that placed that ad seems like they really have no idea what either instrument does in the band,, i would guess they no doubt have a bunch of lousy original songs as well. I have been out of the band thing for years..... but i do think country or blues will be the kind of music i will be playing in the next band ......keyboards fit into both types of music ...... One band that totally blows me away is alseep at the wheel ......its hard to put them into a catagory ,,, but I really like what i hear ..... horns. guitars and blazin hot honky tonk piano ......combined with great vocals. My suggestion would rather than go looking for a band to join ,,, put together one that suits you. I doubt that its the bar band thing thats got you down as much as it is the same old material. rat

[waix]

kinda off topic here

 

but anybody know a fun song with keys that i can play with my band ?. something in the style of foo fighters, red hot chili pepper etc.

 

and that's not too easy for the drummer.

 

 

Thanks

[Prog]

 

Originally posted by rainbird a tendency for bands to be looking for "multi-instrumentalists" rather than keyboard players.Your thoughts?

 

What area are you in? I haven't really seen this.

[wheresgrant3]

Probably not... but it depends on the music and or the situation. I play both keys and guitar in our band... although I wouldn't say that I play one or the other. By definition I wouldn't consider myself a great guitar player or keyboardist. I just have good instincts. Whether it's doubling a guitar part, filling a horn arrangement or adding some atmospheric pads, strings or sound fx.... as the 5th member... I add exactly what I'm expected to add... The Icing!

[BATCAT]

 

Originally posted by rainbird ...What I'm noticing more and more is a tendency for bands to be looking for "multi-instrumentalists" rather than keyboard players. Lately, a few of them specify "bass OR keys." That one has me scratching my head a bit... But anyway, thhis particular "lumping together of skills" seems to me to devalue the the role of the bass player in a band entirely -- to relegate it to something the keyboard player does "on the side." IMHO, a bass player truly makes or breaks a band. Doing it well is a full-time job.

 

 

Honestly, I think your view is kind of constricted and rigid, and that's where your problem is.

 

A band doesn't need a dedicated bassist to be great. Nor does it need a drummer. Or a guitarist... What it does need are quality songs delivered compellingly.

 

Lots of guitarists also play keys sometimes, and so do some bassists. I think this might be partly because people that play keys exclusively are rare in original rock/pop.

 

Not every song requires a bassline, and if it does it can sometimes be played with the left hand on a keyboard.

I've noticed a recent proliferation of vocals/guitar/keys/drums lineups, and done right it actually sounds really cool. Sometimes it's refreshing to hear different instrumentation in popular music.

 

I don't think the issue is that you should or shouldn't play bass as well. I think the key is being open-minded about the role you might play in a band, and about what exactly constitutes a "good" band.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by Actionsquid Honestly, I think your view is kind of constricted and rigid, and that's where your problem is. A band doesn't need a dedicated bassist to be great. Nor does it need a drummer. Or a guitarist... What it does need are quality songs delivered compellingly. Lots of guitarists also play keys sometimes, and so do some bassists. I think this might be partly because people that play keys exclusively are rare in original rock/pop. Not every song requires a bassline, and if it does it can sometimes be played with the left hand on a keyboard. I've noticed a recent proliferation of vocals/guitar/keys/drums lineups, and done right it actually sounds really cool. Sometimes it's refreshing to hear different instrumentation in popular music. I don't think the issue is that you should or shouldn't play bass as well. I think the key is being open-minded about the role you might play in a band, and about what exactly constitutes a "good" band.

 

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying ,,,, but usually when you have a group like that ,, you have one guy in the band that could just do a solo act... and has elected to add a little. I know a duo that fits that bill. Solo act 12 string player singer teams up with a conga and bongo drum, cymbal, kettle steel drum. rig player and other various percussion toys. The guy also blows one of the best blues harps in south texas ...... they know how to get it done with just two people. Its a great act ,,,, great music , amazing song list,,, lots of jigga boo nonsense humor where either can play the straight man to tee up the other guys jokes..... these guys are seasoned south padre island texas working musicians ...... if you are ever down there ,,, catch the beach bums.......Their show is a good time. They have hosting a spring break wet T shirt contest down to a fine art ,,, As they say ,, dont try this at home ,, its best left to the professionals lol.......rat

[jerrye]

You're not becoming obsolete. But you may be a fish out of water, depending on what kind of originals you're doing. I like what the Killers have done, combining keys with heavy guitar.

 

I'm a guitarist primarily, and once I played keys in band. I like having a keyboardist in the band who can also sing. I'd much rather play beside a keyboardist than another guitarist.

 

Keys can do so much to fill things when needed, even if keys aren't prominent in a song being covered. I'm playing with a keyboardist who plays acoustic guitar/pad sounds on a few songs, and it sounds great.

 

If I were a keyboardist in a band, and I were good enough, I'd be honored to play bass lines, too.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by jerrye If I were a keyboardist in a band, and I were good enough, I'd be honored to play bass lines, too.

 

 

 

even if you knew deep low low in your gut ,,, that it takes a bass guitar to really carry the bottom end of a band? Having played keyboards right beside a bass player in every band i have ever been in ,, trust me a bass guitar and a keyboard are not interchangale instruments .....its make do thing at best. In the world of keyboards ,,, you start with the B3 hammond ,or a real piano .. and it just goes downhill from there .....While both are impractical for most bands .....If you really want the sound ,, it takes the real deals ...... Modern keyboard have turned into the band bitch ...your the horn bitch , your the strings bitch,, or any other fake sound that they program into them ... I would not bother me a bit to have only two voices on a keyboard ,,, a B3 and a decent piano voice .... oh yea..... i will keep the transpose putton though lol. its only fair ,, guitar slingers slide up the neck ,,, i want the magic button lol. rat

[MDLMUSIC]

I'm probably a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I dislike playing in a band with a keyboard player (I also dislike playing in a band with a sax player, but that's a topic for another thread).

 

The main problem I have is that most of them are just too busy. They seem to feel that every hole should be plugged with sound, and oftentimes that sound is inappropriate for the song.

 

One of the few times I enjoyed having a keyboard player in the band was a guy who either played acoustic piano (if one was available at the gig) or a simple Rhodes electric piano plugged into the PA.

 

Every other keyboard player I've worked with must think that since he paid two grand to get an instrument that has 600 sounds, he's going to use them all as often as possible.

 

Of course maybe I've just been unlucky. Whaddya think?

[pursuitboy]

I am a keyboard player,who wished he'd learned a little guitar. Not all songs need keys and yes it's overkill to put them in where they don't belong.

However could'nt imagine playing a ballad without at least some piano... then maybe some nice B3 pad.... lets add some analog brass in the chorus.... then we might as well close the last verse and chorus with a middle string pad midied with a higher octave concert string patch and finally add the mixed choir for the finale. And that folks is the story of "Unchained Melody. Try that live without any keys.

[Roy Brooks]

I play in one band that has a keyboard player. I don't know exactly what kind of keyboard he has- some kind of Roland- but he mainly uses it for piano and organ sounds. He knows when and when not to play.

I know lots of folks who play instruments around here who have plenty of skills but tend to want to constantly be playing something when all that is required is just a couple notes here or there.

I mainly play guitar in working bands. Though I have in my past played a few gigs on bass. The past few months I have also been playing lap steel on gigs.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by MDLMUSIC I'm probably a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I dislike playing in a band with a keyboard player (I also dislike playing in a band with a sax player, but that's a topic for another thread). The main problem I have is that most of them are just too busy. They seem to feel that every hole should be plugged with sound, and oftentimes that sound is inappropriate for the song. One of the few times I enjoyed having a keyboard player in the band was a guy who either played acoustic piano (if one was available at the gig) or a simple Rhodes electric piano plugged into the PA. Every other keyboard player I've worked with must think that since he paid two grand to get an instrument that has 600 sounds, he's going to use them all as often as possible. Of course maybe I've just been unlucky. Whaddya think?

 

 

 

well ... a good keyboard player knows how to just blend into the rythm section and lay back ,,,, if you got a solo ,, you let er rip .. then drop back into the blend ....... personallly i hate all the effects on modern keybords ...... ya really only need two sounds .... the B3 hammond and a piano ....... most of the frills on keyboards sound like a honda at a harley convention. The only sound my keyboard had was the B3 ..... it was an old vox with draw bars .......and a real leslie ...run though a bassman with double bottoms ...... for a combo organ is was as close to the real deal as you could get in a portible rig back then ...... rat

[mrcpro]

1. I'm a keyboard player, and have been playing in bands for over 35 years.

 

2. Keyboards aren't always necessary. I have been fired a couple of times from projects, not because of my lack of skills, but because that's not the direction those bands realized they were heading once they got started. I've also excused myself from situations where it was becoming apparent that there wasn't going to be a lot of sonic room for keys.

 

3. Those styles that need keys are impossible to do correctly without them. If you're doing covers that cover a lot of ground, R&B, etc.... gotta have keys.

 

4. Good seasoned professional keyboard players are just like any other position in the band. They don't use 600 sounds, don't fill in every nook and cranny, and don't overplay. They do just what's necessary to elevate the sound of the band as a whole. But there will always be incompetents, show-offs and jerks, just like there are incompetent guitar players, bass players, and drummers.

 

5. I don't know what the large number of "bass and/or keys wanted" thing is about, but suspect that it's an anomaly. It's not something you usually run across. I have played keyboards and keyboard bass in lounge bands from time to time, but it's not a common thing. However if you like doing it, you will never be out of work. Still get calls for that...

 

But the trick is to find a situation that suits you, not try to suit a situation. Hang in there... it will happen.

[rhat]

Originally posted by mrcpro 1. I'm a keyboard player, and have been playing in bands for over 35 years. 2. Keyboards aren't always necessary. I have been fired a couple of times from projects, not because of my lack of skills, but because that's not the direction those bands realized they were heading once they got started. I've also excused myself from situations where it was becoming apparent that there wasn't going to be a lot of sonic room for keys. 3. Those styles that need keys are impossible to do correctly without them. If you're doing covers that cover a lot of ground, R&B, etc.... gotta have keys. 4. Good seasoned professional keyboard players are just like any other position in the band. They don't use 600 sounds, don't fill in every nook and cranny, and don't overplay. They do just what's necessary to elevate the sound of the band as a whole. But there will always be incompetents, show-offs and jerks, just like there are incompetent guitar players, bass players, and drummers. 5. I don't know what the large number of "bass and/or keys wanted" thing is about, but suspect that it's an anomaly. It's not something you usually run across. I have played keyboards and keyboard bass in lounge bands from time to time, but it's not a common thing. However if you like doing it, you will never be out of work. Still get calls for that... But the trick is to find a situation that suits you, not try to suit a situation. Hang in there... it will happen.

 

 

A very good perspective on keyboards .....and some very good advice ... rat

[Monsoon]

I believe the "bass or keys" thing is more abundant in areas where bass players are scarce. So as a desperate last measure, they figure keys can do the job of the bass "well enough" and heck as long as there are keys in the band, they can use them elsewhere. The main goal of an ad like that is to find someone, anyone, to fill in the bottom end.

[Outkaster]

It is not hard to understand. Keyboard players are ALWAYS AN AFTERTHOUGHT. We know more musically than other band mates also, it is just that it does not fit. Most of us come up competing with guitar player and having to play every song in D,E, A and {censored}in B. Problem with a lot of keyboard players, including some on the keyboard forum are all into the classic rock thing and most of the time do not get exposure outside of that. They are so far up the ass of Wakeman, Tony Banks and all that stuff. I can tell a guitar player to play a song in Bb ot Gb and they cannot even do it half the time and search the fretboard. Imagine having to play a different hand position each time. That is why piano is so hard. It is such a pain in the {censored}in ass to be heard when you have two guitarists blaring their stacks of fender or Marshall amps. I am glad I am out of that FM rock thing. If I had to play 1,4,5 progressions now I would go {censored}in crazy.

[Kevin T]

If I am talkin to new folks considering a sitin or joining a new band I always ask the configuration? If it's 2 guitars I now say NO Thanks end of subject. Most guys who play rhythm guitar are deaf & clueless as far as how to make sonic space for keys which occupy much of the same spectrum. Nothing worse than playin your heart out at full tilt volume all nite only to be told by friends I could only hear you alittle when you played the upper octave

 

Kevin T

[rainbird]

Just wanted to drop back in and thank all of you who have

taken the time to share your thoughts on this so far. The subject

line should probably have read "are keyboards OBSOLETE?"

Certainly they can be irrelevant in some situations. And those

aren't the situations I should be considering in the first place.

And certainly they can be ill-used or overused - I try not to do

that. Anyway, special thanks to rhat and mcpro, who nailed

a few points for me. OK. I'll stop sniveling now and get back to

practicing.

[rhat]

 

Originally posted by Outkaster It is not hard to understand. Keyboard players are ALWAYS AN AFTERTHOUGHT. We know more musically than other band mates also, it is just that it does not fit. Most of us come up competing with guitar player and having to play every song in D,E, A and {censored}in B. Problem iw keyboard players, including some on the keybaord forum are all into the rock thing and most of the time do not get exposure outside of that. I tell someone to play a song in Bb and they cannot even do it. I is such a pain in the {censored}in ass to be heard when you have two guitarists blaring the stacks of fender or Marshall amps. I am glad I am out of that FM rock thing. If I had to play 1,4,5 progressions now I would go {censored}in crazy.

 

 

 

I will agree that it takes an outstanding keyboard man to be fluent on solos in every key right out of the box ... I had keys i didnt really care for ,,,, i could play in any key ,, face it its just chords ... ya want an oddball key and a solo ,,, i usually had to work it up ...... Ya want it right off the top of my head ... and want it now ,,,, put the song in the key of C .... now on modern keyboards with the transpose switch ,,,, no problem ,,,, ya bump it up or down and let er rip .... As for competing with the guitars ....I never found that a problem..... I can find a spot to hold down as my territory ..... rat

[BATCAT]

 

Originally posted by Monsoon I believe the "bass or keys" thing is more abundant in areas where bass players are scarce. So as a desperate last measure, they figure keys can do the job of the bass "well enough" and heck as long as there are keys in the band, they can use them elsewhere. The main goal of an ad like that is to find someone, anyone, to fill in the bottom end.

 

 

It's often very hard to find a good bass player, and I think you're right that it's often an attempy to "widen the net" in the search for something to serve as bass.

 

I don't think such a situation is quite as bleak as you seem to suggest. Believe me, I love the bass guitar, but I've seen quite a few interesting and good bass-less bands, both with and withour keys.

[bbrunskill]

I looked for keyboard player for my new band with no luck. They are really hard to find. The dudes I tried were all piano players, no idea of synth and used to playing EVERYTHING, bass, chords and melody. So I have started playing keys myself. It's been a steep learning curve but a whole lot of fun. I can't just jam, but I can play the parts I need for my music. But I think a keyboard is a vital sound in the mix of most pop/rock music. (or in my case alt/rock)

If I found the right dude, I would just play guitar only, but until I do, this works.

(just saving up for a decent keyboard . . . Maybe a Roland Juno-D)