purpose of line mixers

[elchico04]

what are they used for? I often hear them talked about over at HRI.

 

also what does wet and dry mean? I also see w/d/w or whatever over at HRI

 

 

thanks

[sacredgroove]

Line mixers give you more versatility in being able to layer and blend all of your sounds together. Everything is parallel to each other, therefore you shouldn't lose any of your preamp/amp tone. A mixer combined with a router/looper gives even more flexibility and truer tones/sounds.

[elchico04]

if you don't mind can you be a little more in depth?

[jimosity]

Wet / Dry is basically when you are splitting your guitar signal into at least 2 (sometimes three; known as wet/dry/wet ) signals.

One signal has no effects on it and the other does.

Wet = has effects

Dry = no effects

 

W/D/W would mean that you'd have stereo effects or (dual mono) effects running into cabinets on each side of a cabinet that has no effects on it.

 

There are several ways to split your signal to achieve this.

 

A line mixer is usually used when you are feeding your separate signals into a mixer that will allow you to better control and blend the tones.

 

One example that I've used to do this is that my preamp has two outputs, I run one output directly to the power amp and then the second output I run to an effects unit then into the power amp.

Since I am using a stereo power amp, one side is dry and the other is wet.

 

I've also done it with an older preamp that only had one output where I used an Axess Electronics BS-2 splitter to break my signal into three separate outputs and then feed one directly to a line mixer (I have a Behringer Eurorack RX1602) -- that gave me one dry signal, then I sent the other two to stereo effects processors. Each processor had stereo outputs and allowed me to convert mono input to stereo output, so then I ended up with four (2 per unit) wet effects that I could then send to four other inputs on the line mixer...that gave me a total of five separate tones I could then mix with the line mixer to get what I wanted. This was just done as a test to see if it would work and it does, but it's very much overkill and not really that feasible.

 

Wet/Dry and Wet/Dry/Wet are a lot more common and give you a far better overall tone.

 

Does that make any more sense?

[elchico04]

yeah a little bit.

 

so if I got a g-major in the future would it be worth my money to run a wet/dry rig?

 

isn't that 16 channel mixer overkill?

[jimosity]

Sure, it's worth it to get a g-major and run wet/dry.

 

Just keep in mind that you may also need a separate noise gate to go in between your dry signal and the power amp.

 

....and yes, a 16 channel mixer is WAY overkill, but it was cheap, so I figured what the hell.

I don't run wet/dry all the time, so I just wanted it to test with really.

[elchico04]

wait...why would I need a noise gate? or are you just saying in case I did use one?

 

This is all really interesting to me! Wouldn't mixers color your tone?

Would this mixer be worth looking at

http://www.nady.com/rmx6_rackgear_pg.html

do you really need anything other than a level control for this application?

[jimosity]

Well, if you consider that you're running your preamp directly into your power amp -- there's the potential for a little noise depending on your rig.

Thus a good noise gate between the two may help alleviate that issue.

Then you start to get into the 'well it's not really dry' sort of issue and then you have a separate unit just for noise gate...then you end up with a huge rack of {censored} that you don't *REALLY* need...so practicality goes out the window....

Then when you consider that almost all live PAs you're gonna play thru are mono...it's a toss up.

I don't run wet/dry because of all of these issues - so it's great for some guys and not so much for others...

 

That Nady should work just fine though.

[Zachman]

wait...why would I need a noise gate? or are you just saying in case I did use one? This is all really interesting to me! Wouldn't mixers color your tone? Would this mixer be worth looking at http://www.nady.com/rmx6_rackgear_pg.html do you really need anything other than a level control for this application?

 

A mixer CAN DEFINITELY color your tone, as not all mixers are created equally.

 

I used to run Rane SM26 splitter mixers in several previous setups, and then with my latest rig, I had Bob Bradshaw of Custom Audio Electronics- Custom make me a full rack space Dual 5 channel line mixer and it BLOWS AWAY the Ranes, that I thought were fine. I figured they'd sound better, but I truly wasn't prepared for just how BIG of a difference it would make. The frame of reference, now has me realizing just how badly the Rane's were actually coloring the tone, and how clear and transparent to my ears the CAE product is.

 

HIGHLY recommended!!!

[Spacehog26]

Jimosity, how do you rate the audio quality (and reliability) of the Behringer RX1602? It's by far my cheapest option as a line mixer (plus I like that it's only 1U and runs straight from an IEC lead rather than an adaptor). I've had some Behringer kit that's great (Composer, Multigate, B1 mics) and some that's awful (graphic EQs, DIs etc) so I'm a little wary.

 

The CAE mixer does look like a strong contender (particularly with the weak dollar) but ordering it seems a little awkward from the UK! Notwithstanding the 8 hour time difference between CA and here (and somewhat expensive international call costs), I'd then have to deal with long shipping times and customs charges. On top of which, the online manual on their (very poor) website is awful and doesn't even give the spec of the power supply!

[JMPMarshall]

For us state side the CAE is a bit expensive as well. ($400 US) Shopping around for a used System Mix (ebay BIN for $250 last night usually around $200) might be better as they seem to be comparable products. Anyone have any experience with the two of them?

[Zachman]

Jimosity, how do you rate the audio quality (and reliability) of the Behringer RX1602? It's by far my cheapest option as a line mixer (plus I like that it's only 1U and runs straight from an IEC lead rather than an adaptor). I've had some Behringer kit that's great (Composer, Multigate, B1 mics) and some that's awful (graphic EQs, DIs etc) so I'm a little wary. The CAE mixer does look like a strong contender (particularly with the weak dollar) but ordering it seems a little awkward from the UK! Notwithstanding the 8 hour time difference between CA and here (and somewhat expensive international call costs), I'd then have to deal with long shipping times and customs charges. On top of which, the online manual on their (very poor) website is awful and doesn't even give the spec of the power supply!

 

Bob does Custom work and if you order it with your euro spec mentioned, he could make it to "your" spec. The best way to contact him is via e-mail. He will get back to you.

 

The one I have he custom made. It's not the half rack space dual 3 channel like on his site, rather a full rack space dual 5 channel.

[Spacehog26]

That's cool, but again expensive, and I have a fairly simple requirement in terms of what I want. Basically, my setup schematic will be this (threw it together quickly in Visio at work):

A 1U mixer would be ideal, and I don't need any aux sends or anything on it, nor parallel / series routing, but I do need at least 1 mono and 4 stereo ins, going to stereo outs... I'd prefer it if it was powered straight from the mains (no wall warts) and obviously it needs to run on 220-240v. The cheaper the better, really

[sacredgroove]

Jimosity, how do you rate the audio quality (and reliability) of the Behringer RX1602? It's by far my cheapest option as a line mixer (plus I like that it's only 1U and runs straight from an IEC lead rather than an adaptor). I've had some Behringer kit that's great (Composer, Multigate, B1 mics) and some that's awful (graphic EQs, DIs etc) so I'm a little wary. The CAE mixer does look like a strong contender (particularly with the weak dollar) but ordering it seems a little awkward from the UK! Notwithstanding the 8 hour time difference between CA and here (and somewhat expensive international call costs), I'd then have to deal with long shipping times and customs charges. On top of which, the online manual on their (very poor) website is awful and doesn't even give the spec of the power supply!

 

I used a Behringer 1602 when I had multple fx units. I didn't notice any difference in my tone (for the bad). I originally bought it for playback when I would record live bands. I thought it was worth a lot more than the $100 I paid for it.

[Spacehog26]

That's cool to know, thanks. Definitely seems from a few things I've read that it's one of their good products, so that may well be the one to go for. At a pinch, I could also run my keyboards into it for those gigs when stage space is really tight and playing without my keyboard amps would be convenient (we seem to do plenty of these gigs ) and the extra inputs would future-proof me.

[starsnuffer]

IMHO, you're pissing money down the drain to get a line mixer with just a g-major.

 

Line mixers were big in the 80s and early 90's because every effect colored tone so much. Converters were crap and the only way to get a decent tone was to put the FX in parallel.

 

These days, converters on the cheapest products are far superior to the best available 20 years ago, so it is less of an issue.

 

You will, in fact, be loosing versatility by not putting the G-major in a normal series FX loop, especially if you want to do things like whammy and phase effects.

 

If you had old school separate reverb, delay, and chorus units, I would say line mixer all the way. The G-major has a built in mixer and can route FX either in series or parallel internally, so an external mixer is not needed.

 

Yes, the g-major will color your tone a little, depending on how good your amps FX loop is, however, a mixer will color your tone as well.

 

If you do someday build up a huge rig with a lot of devices and you would like to have the capability to mix them and route them either series or parallel in real-time, I'd suggest getting a soundsculpture switchblade. After owning one, I can't imagine going back to the stone ages in a rig that is statically configured and requires rewiring to alter the way effects are routed.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

-W

[JMPMarshall]

Explain how the switchblade works. I've looked into it and it's manual reads like "The Iliad" in original Greek, worse by far than the Lexicon and Axess Electronics manuals. They're expensive as hell. Not to mention I don't really like the fact it doesn't have a hardware bypass but even it's bypass might be cleaner than the GCX with all the patch cables it requires. In the long run maybe it will save me money, it would render my GCX obsolete which my brother wants anyways.

 

Is there a way to set up input muting on your effects? I could see a way of routing in parallel using that would work but it'd chew up two loops.

[starsnuffer]

 

Explain how the switchblade works. I've looked into it and it's manual reads like "The Iliad" in original Greek, worse by far than the Lexicon and Axess Electronics manuals. They're expensive as hell. Not to mention I don't really like the fact it doesn't have a hardware bypass but even it's bypass might be cleaner than the GCX with all the patch cables it requires. In the long run maybe it will save me money, it would render my GCX obsolete which my brother wants anyways. Is there a way to set up input muting on your effects? I could see a way of routing in parallel using that would work but it'd chew up two loops.

 

 

It's a pretty straightforward device. It can be a pain to program with the 3 front buttons, but it has a really nice piece of software that lets you do all the setup on your laptop or mac.

 

Basically it's a switching and routing matrix. You connect everything to it very simply, in and out.

 

Once you plug everything in, you tell it what is plugged into where.

 

From there, you can do whatever you want. If you only one one device in a series, it does that. If you want all your connections in a series, fine. If you want everything parallel, fine. If you want to put two different preamps in parallel and use a expression pedal to mix between them, fine.

 

You do all this with presets and CC commands, so you can have many different "scenes" or different routing schemes for every preset. You can also setup "instant access" CC commands, which basically allow you to use devices like stomp boxes, brought into and out of the signal path based on CC messages.

 

It also has 4 relays to do amp switching or whathave you.

 

It's really simple. Plug everything in, then tell it what to do. With the PC/mac interface, it's all drag and drop.

 

-W

[JMPMarshall]

It doesn't seem like much of an improvement on the regular loop switcher and external line mixer. The regular loop switcher and line mixer is more useful to me because my routing will be set once and never change. If I want to have my effects in parallel I'll using a second processor to do delay while another does reverb and I'll have one set to do both for series.

[starsnuffer]

 

It doesn't seem like much of an improvement on the regular loop switcher and external line mixer. The regular loop switcher and line mixer is more useful to me because my routing will be set once and never change. If I want to have my effects in parallel I'll using a second processor to do delay while another does reverb and I'll have one set to do both for series.

 

 

If your setup and every patch you need doesn't change, then it probably isn't useful. If you ever find yourself wishing you could mix in or out an effect on the fly or if you have two great boxes that sound good serial, but also sound good in parallel for a different sound, then you'll find yourself wanting.

 

For instance, I run 3 "dirt" boxes in my rack. Keeley TS9, Keeley DS1, and a Fuzz factory. They all sound good alone, or stacked in a series, but they also sound good in parallel. I also have a patch that assigns an expression pedal to sweep the fuzz in and out of a clean ambient patch, so I can blend it at will. You don't have that kind of control with an 80s style static setup.

 

-W