Members Preacher Will Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 OK guys, here's the Preacher's $3,000 challenge. Devise a PA system for the following 5-piece band: 1) Drums (kick, 2 toms, snare, high hat, ride, and crash) 2) Rythmn guitar, lead and backing vocals (Taylor acoustic w/ Baggs Para Acoustic DI) 3) Keys, backing vocals (Roland synth straight to board) 4) Bass, backing vocals (Fender into Fender bassman) 5) Lead vocal PA system components must all be purchased new at current street price. No ebay specials on used equipment allowed. Price cannot exceed $3,000 by even $.01--taxes not included. System will be for small to mid house size, eg. 200-300 seat auditoriums, occasional outside gigs. There must be provision for two independent monitor mixes, four would be better. We'd like to mic the bass for greater control over the mix. Allowance needs to be made for cabling, racks, stands, etc. Type of music is Christian contemporary--we want to be heard but aren't in a sound pressure arms race. MI grade equipment acceptable but points awarded for pro upgrades. Winner gets kudos now and a copy of our disc if and when we produce one (and I remember to send it to you ). The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnemrava Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 If you want to by new, grab a berinhger mixer, enough 58 for your vocals. look in to cheap powered stuff. You will be disappointed in the system, and in the end when you get fed up with it (8 months- year :) ), it will be worth about 50% of what you paid. Kevin Nemrava Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnemrava Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 sorry I did not notice your 1054 posts at first, ... is this just for fun? surely you know this stuff better then most of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted July 12, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by kevinnemrava is this just for fun? Yes and no. We have two set ups, one fixed, one for the road. Some of the pieces are interchangeable (actually, all of it can be if we choose to tear everything down.) I'm looking for some upgrades and have been impressed with how creative some of the minds on this board can be. I'd like to see what different approaches different perspectives bring to solving the problem. It is a genuine question. . . . surely you know this stuff better then most of us! That I doubt. I know a little about a lot of things, a lot about a few. Sound reinforcement falls in the former, not the latter category. The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 12, 2003 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2003 Dang, I had a great solution for you, but it went over by a penny. Oh well.... Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted July 12, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by MrKnobs Dang, I had a great solution for you, but it went over by a penny. Oh well.... Terry D. Ain't life just grand?!! The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 I hope your Bass player has a stout rig, cause you can't do what you want and include subs. The subwoofer component of a rig as described above would be about $1,500 (minimum) and eat half your budget. Furthemore, when you add all the cables, mic stands, racks and miscellaneous components, you'll nearly add another grand. So, with these obvious and glaring exclusions, I'd recommend the following: Mixer Behringer UB2442Fx $349.99 X 1 http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHUB2442FXP (has effects passable included) Speakers Yorkville e15 $499ea X 2 http://www.audioeast.com/yorkvilleelite.htm Monitors Community MVP-38 $200ea X 2 http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/speakers/community/mvpseries.html (get a custom quote) Main Amp QSC RMX2450 $500 X 1 www.filamentaudio.com (email for quote) Monitor amp QSC RMX1450 $375 X 1 www.filamentaudio.com (email for quote) FOH EQ DBX 131 $149.99 X 1 http://www.zzounds.com/prodsearch?form=prodsearch&q=dbx+131 Monitor eq DBX 231 $199.99 X 1 http://www.zzounds.com/item--DBX231 Vocal mic Behringer XM8500 $19.99 X 1 (out of budget!) Grand total = 2992.96 Work with a single, reputable dealer to buy the whole lot and you will probably get a better deal. You'll need subs....add $1,500 - $2000 and get a pair of Yorkville LS808's and an amp or the new LS800P's. Oh...no speaker stands, so get some stong roadies to hold them so the horns are about 7' high Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted July 12, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by flanc . . . you can't do what you want and include subs. . . Frank I don't know that I can do what I want at all!!!! When I wrote this, I had a sketch in my mind and thought it would be really doable. The downside is that, in my mind, I was excluding all the little niggling things like cables, cases, and mics and they eat up a huge chunk of the budget. Of course, when I wrote the challenge, I figured that I needed to be fair and added those in. As a result, I think I shot myself in the foot. You've come up with some good suggestions though and I appreciate all the labor. There's some things I'm gonna have to look a little more closely at. The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 I am not sure you can accomplish your goal of a 3K system and be happy with the results. flanc had some really good suggestions, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat. For starters, don't ever skimp on the microphones and speakers. flanc got the speaker part right, but ran out of budget on the microphones. Rather than getting cheep microphones (and not having any mic stands or cables yet), you should look into a powered mixer. There are several powered mixers on the market today that have quite good output. These units will also have build in effects and eq. I personally used a Mackie 808M for 2 years with a pair of Klipsch speakers. This rig had very good sound and got the band quite far. I know that there are better powered mixers availible today than the 808M, could someone else in here please name a few? Thx. The powered mixer will run you around 500-800. Just a casual look and I came up with this: http://www.musiciansbuy.com/yamaha_emx5000-12_powered_mixer.htm With $800.00 already out of your budget, you have only $2200.00 left, but 12 channels with eq and efx (and a free compressor limiter to boot). Speakers - flanc had it right with the Yorkville e15's. Now you have only $1200.00 left. 5 vocal microphones. Use the EV ND767a. They can be had for $100.00 each. I got one a few months ago at this price, but can't remember where Someone on this board pointed me to it though. These mic's are top of the line and are the absolute best bang for the buck live mic I have heard. They are equivelent to the Shure Beta58, but cost less (and look better IMHO). $700.00 left. You will sound much better if you mic the drums, but I think you are going to run out of money and horse power from your amp. You should still mic the kick and snare. Kick mic - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=030712091724068042097171186441/g=live/search/detail/base_id/50659 $500.00 left. Snare mic Shure SM57 ~70.00 $550.00 left Guitar and bass mic (~100.00 each) $350.00 The remaining money will be consumed with cables and stands for this mess. The nice thing about this rig is that you can add some powered subs later to bring up the bottom end without re-designing your entire PA. You can also mic the rest of the drums with a bit more money too, also without getting into a redesign of your system. Good luck in your endevors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 The Preacher can probably save about $40 by going with a Whirlwind IMP (DI) for bass instead of a mic. That's two more cables, or 4 large pizzas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 12, 2003 Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 Check http://www.audiopile.net for those cables. RickJ, I think $40 could buy 4 pizzas, or 4 EWI cables, shipped, and with enough left over for a coupel tacos Also, an EWI active DI would save even more bucks off that bass mic. Be good for acoustic electrics too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted July 12, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2003 One Eng is right, the $3K limit is a killer to achieve what I'm looking for. In all fairness, this is how I approached the challenge (and, obviously, lost): I got the niggling little stuff out of the way first (all numbers are rounded up to the nearest dollar): 6 ea Sennheiser 835 -------$200.00/3 -------400.00 6 ea On Stage Stands -------100.00/6--------100.00 2 ea 50' speaker cables ------30.00 ea-------- 60.00 1 ea EWI 8x4 snake ---------150.00 ea-------150.00 6 ea 30' mic cables ------------15.00 ea---------90.00 4 ea 10' mic cables-------------10.00 ea---------40.00 1 ea mic bag --------------------20.00 ea---------20.00 Total-------------------------------------------------840.00 That leaves me $2,160.00 right? And I still have mixer, amp, and speakers plus stands and racks to go. How about: 2 ea JBL SF25-----------------$400.00 ea----------800.00 1 ea Mackie CFX-12------------650.00 ea----------650.00 1 ea QSC RMX 1450-----------400.00 ea----------400.00 2 ea Ultimate spkr. stnd.-------50.00 ea----------100.00 1 ea SKB Mini Gig Rig----------200.00 ea-------200.00 Total---------------------------------------------------2,150.00 The grand total is: 2,990.00 But there are no monitors and no subs. Unless I carry the mixer in its shipping box and balance the amp on a table then I can deduct the Gig Rig to save $200 and put it towards 1 Yamaha S12Me at $200!! Well, maybe not . . . The Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Originally posted by Preacher Will One Eng is right, the $3K limit is a killer to achieve what I'm looking for. In all fairness, this is how I approached the challenge (and, obviously, lost): I got the niggling little stuff out of the way first (all numbers are rounded up to the nearest dollar): 6 ea Sennheiser 835 -------$200.00/3 -------400.00 6 ea On Stage Stands -------100.00/6--------100.00 2 ea 50' speaker cables ------30.00 ea-------- 60.00 1 ea EWI 8x4 snake ---------150.00 ea-------150.00 6 ea 30' mic cables ------------15.00 ea---------90.00 4 ea 10' mic cables-------------10.00 ea---------40.00 1 ea mic bag --------------------20.00 ea--------- 20.00 Total-------------------------------------------------840.00 That leaves me $2,160.00 right? And I still have mixer, amp, and speakers plus stands and racks to go. How about: 2 ea JBL SF25-----------------$400.00 ea----------800.00 1 ea Mackie CFX-12------------650.00 ea----------650.00 1 ea QSC RMX 1450-----------400.00 ea----------400.00 2 ea Ultimate spkr. stnd.-------50.00 ea----------100.00 1 ea SKB Mini Gig Rig----------200.00 ea------- 200.00 Total---------------------------------------------------2,150.00 The grand total is: 2,990.00 But there are no monitors and no subs. Unless I carry the mixer in its shipping box and balance the amp on a table then I can deduct the Gig Rig to save $200 and put it towards 1 Yamaha S12Me at $200!! Well, maybe not . . . The Preacher You only have an 8 channel snake. Your drums will eat up over half of that. Why would you want a Mini Gig-Rig if you aren't going to rack-mount the mixer on top? Plus,we get quite a few horror stories about the CFX mixers here. And very few people speak too highly about the pseudo-JBL's. And you don't have much power and no subs. Are you sure you don't want to look used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 I wouldn't skimp on the speakers. tlbonehead is right about the 8 channels too. You will definately want more in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members groove.77 Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Maybe think about buying what you can right now - GOOD main cabs, mixer, snake, and power amp, then wait until you can afford to buy GOOD monitors, mon. amp, subs, sub amp etc. My $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 14, 2003 CMS Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 One factor to consider is the 'package discount'. I've been shopping around for the past couple of months, and have roughly the same budget, though I don't have to cover quite as much area....only need basement practice/small bar rig. Every place I've shopped will give a pretty decent discount when I purchase a whole rig's worth of stuff.....typically it's been about 15%. And if I drive a little harder I'm sure I can get a bit more out of them. Especially in the heat of summer with an empty store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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