Members bigcat Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 Here is my situation: I will be playing coffee shops and brew pubs. So 30-175 people let's say. Lineup: 3 vocals 1 acoustic guitar with soundhole (Rare earth Humbucker) pickup 1 miced conga 1 bass rig that won't go through the PA I need something that will do for a small acoustic trio in small settings where management is not necessarily interested in you playing at a volume where no conversation is possible and people leave feeling like they just walked out of a Led Zepplin concert. Its mainly on my nickel, the "pay" will be ridiculous, total vanity shows, which is OK, its my hobby. I just want to get the best I can for what I can spend so any advice will be listened to. After reading a number of posts here, this is what I am thinking given my very limited budget (these gigs will pay next to nothing): Setup 1: Total cost $530 Behringer Eurorack UB1204FX-PRO Mixer $150 (I want reverb for guitar and vocals) weight: 6lb size: 10x14x4 www.musiciansfriend.com/s...id/631234/ Behringer Ultrawave B300 $350 weight: 68lb!!!! size: 28x18x17 rating: 300w www.musiciansfriend.com/s...e_id/53350 Axman Speaker Stand $20 www.musiciansfriend.com/s..._id/101984 MF 16-Gauge Speaker Cable $10 www.musiciansfriend.com/s..._id/102867 Setup 2: Total cost $640 Yamaha EMX62M 6-Channel Powered Mixer (6 ch) $300 weight: 25lb size: 18x12x12 rating: 1x200w www.zzounds.com/item--YAMEMX62M OR Behringer PMX2000 Europower Powered Mixer (10 ch) $300 weight: 33lb size: 11x18x11 rating: 2x250w www.musiciansfriend.com/s..._id/104121 Peavey PR12 Pro Light Speaker Enclosure (12 in.) $140 x 2 = $280 weight: 30lb size: 18x14x24 rating: 250w www.zzounds.com/item--PEVPR112 Axman Speaker Stand $20 x 2 = $40 www.musiciansfriend.com/s..._id/101984 MF 16-Gauge Speaker Cable $10 X 2 = $20 www.musiciansfriend.com/s..._id/102867 My microphone setup (the other two guys can provide their own mic, cable and stand): Total cost $105 SM57 Instrument/Vocal Mic $80 www.musiciansfriend.com/s...e_id/35414 MF 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MoosBros Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 if this is your "hobby" as you put it.. why not just stay home and have nice private parties and play for your friends instead...or even if you get popular, play at your friends parties as well..... I've always been one to believe that one is either out in the streets, playing music, and working for pay as a struggling professional, or, you stay home and have at it there as an amature hobbyist.......it's not nice to play for free in public...I, or any other half decent musician, could have a gig every day(AND NIGHT) of the week around town if we all played for free,, but,, then the rent man would come throw me outta my house soon( IF I didn't starve to death first).. just something to think about ... leave the coffee house gigs to musicians who are trying to hack out a living doing live music entertainent. they generally can figure out a way to make a few decent bucks(even at coffee houses), selling tees, CD's or whatever, in addition to the tips and whatever the "house" chips in..., and it all adds up to help pay the rent... as for your questions concerning equipment..... I'd suggest the Yorkville Elite 160P powered speakers,(never skimp on speakers),powerful, ultra compact, perfect for acoustic gigs...or, if you prefer seperates,, they offer it that way too....unpowered... I'd stay away from the Shure SM57 as your primary vocal mic, unless you have experience in using one a lot, and just really prefer it's sound..it's rather dark sounding, quite the opposite of what I would envision a nice "coffee house" crisp sound to be....one of the Shure Beta series, or a condenser, would sound much better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by MoosBros if this is your "hobby" as you put it.. why not just stay home and have nice private parties and play for your friends instead...or even if you get popular, play at your friends parties as well.....I've always been one to believe that one is either out in the streets, playing music, and working for pay as a struggling professional, or, you stay home and have at it there as an amature hobbyist.......it's not nice to play for free in public...I, or any other half decent musician, could have a gig every day(AND NIGHT) of the week around town if we all played for free,, but,, then the rent man would come throw me outta my house soon( IF I didn't starve to death first).. just something to think about ... leave the coffee house gigs to musicians who are trying to hack out a living doing live music entertainent. they generally can figure out a way to make a few decent bucks(even at coffee houses), selling tees, CD's or whatever, in addition to the tips and whatever the "house" chips in..., and it all adds up to help pay the rent...as for your questions concerning equipment.....I'd suggest the Yorkville Elite 160P powered speakers,(never skimp on speakers),powerful, ultra compact, perfect for acoustic gigs...or, if you prefer seperates,, they offer it that way too....unpowered...I'd stay away from the Shure SM57 as your primary vocal mic, unless you have experience in using one a lot, and just really prefer it's sound..it's rather dark sounding, quite the opposite of what I would envision a nice "coffee house" crisp sound to be....one of the Shure Beta series, or a condenser, would sound much better... Totally agree - the only time you should be playing for free is for charity or private parties of friends. If you are going to play at any sort of professional establishment then you are a professional and should be paid accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theelmsrock Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 You don't need speaker cable for use with the B300's (setup 1). In fact, you CAN'T use speaker cable with the B300's. You need balanced, line-level cabling, such as regular XLR mic cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigcat Posted August 2, 2003 Author Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 Whoa! Did I just hit a nerve somewhere? I never said I was going to play for free. All I said was that, as anyone who does these type of gigs knows, they don't pay squat. Therefore, even if I play out twice a month it will take me forever just to pay off the modest setup I am proposing. Hence, my REALISTIC assessment that these are "vanity shows". I have a wife, kid and mortgage. I have no intention of quitting my job and trying to support myself on the coffeehouse circuit. And I would suggest to anyone over the age of 21 who does want a wife, kid and mortgage that they either move up from the coffeehouse circuit or start considering music as a hobby and go out and get a real job. Sorry to sound like a Dad here. I write original material, I think it is pretty good, and I want to share it with people. If I'm good enough to get the gig and get asked back it is my business as to whether I want to present my music in that setting. I just want to present what I'm doing in the best way possible given my financial constraints. This is my community, the people I live with, and there are venues that will let me reach those people (and cover my night's expenses) so why shouldn't I take advantage of those opportunities? Do you oppose community theater (which doesn't pay squat) because it takes work away from "real" actors? Well I am a "real" musician and if I choose to stay at a community level and have no interest in aspiring to gold records and stadium tours that doesn't make my music any less valid. My music costs me money, that is just a fact of life. I'll never recoup all I've spent on it but I never expected too. Do we HAVE to measure sucess in this country only by money and fame ? That does NOT mean I do not take my music seriously. I do. But I have to balance it with other aspects of my life and I have to acknowledge that it is never going to be a significant icome source. That is WHY it is a hobby (sorry if you don't like that word, but that's what it is). BTW if you add in the cost of guitars and other equipment and the "opportunity cost" for the endless hours of practice, I'd contend that almost every musician out there has been financing a very expense hobby whether they want to admit it or not. I don't like to look at things in such starkly economic terms however. Maybe my use of the term "vanity shows" hit a little too close to home for some people but they need to assess that for themselves. I wish you sucess in whatever manner you want to express your music in your life. I however may not WANT to do what YOU want to do. New agey response: But that doesn't make it any less valid. Non-new agey response: So FU. End of rant. So back to the issue at hand. I really would like opinons from people with more experience than myself whether I should go with the Yamaha or the Behringer or scuttle them both given what is is I want to do (but please offer a reasonable alternative). Thanks PS I promise I won't steal any of your gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amphicar47 Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 the yorville elite e160p powered 10" speakers are about 450$ each. 2 of those and one of the new alesis mixers which are just as inexpensive as the behringer ones and according to agedhorse a very knowledgible person on this forum have a very good effects chip. I think would be the ideal sounding priced small setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members steelyD Posted August 2, 2003 Members Share Posted August 2, 2003 Originally posted by MoosBros I'd stay away from the Shure SM57 as your primary vocal mic, unless you have experience in using one a lot, and just really prefer it's sound..it's rather dark sounding, quite the opposite of what I would envision a nice "coffee house" crisp sound to be....one of the Shure Beta series, or a condenser, would sound much better... Agreed. Some less expensive alternatives (about $100) might be the EV nd767 or AKG D880. If you pool your money with your buddies you can buy a 3-pack of the Sennheiser e835 for $200. I think the biggest knock against Behringer gear is that, if it breaks, you might as well throw it away because it isn't worth the time and effort to get it fixed. Yamaha SR gear is kind of like Sony home entertainment gear: nothing special, but you get what you pay for and it generally performs reliably. If you decide to buy Behringer, consider buying it locally so if it arrives DOA (which has been known to happen) you can return it easily. For vocals and guitars (no bass or keyboard) a 12" speaker will work fine. The Yorkville Elite or NX powered boxes seem to be well like by those who have heard them. ElectroVoice also makes a neat, lightweight powered box in the same price range. Either of these choices are more expensive than the Behringers, but are considerably lighter. Lifting a 65# box off a stand by yourself at the end of the night is not a lot of fun unless you're built like Ahnuld. I like the concept of powered boxes. They can be used as a one piece PA for a solo act (some have multiple mic/line inputs and mix capability, so a mixer might not even be necessary), or the small club/coffeehouse situation you're looking at, or as a personal wedge monitor if you find yourself in a larger venue/higher volume situation. My list:(2) EV SxA100 powered speakers - $960(1) Behringer or other disposable mixer of your choice - $200(1) decent mic (see above) - $100(1) DI box (for the guitar) - $40Cables, stands, etc. $100 Total $1,400 I know it's difficult to justify dropping over $1K on something that will never return the investment monetarily, but settling for something less may not be very satisfying. And isn't that your goal? Peace,D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted August 3, 2003 Members Share Posted August 3, 2003 Originally posted by bigcat Whoa! Did I just hit a nerve somewhere? YEP!!! Take what I say now with a pinch of salt, it is all my opinion. Originally posted by bigcat I never said I was going to play for free. All I said was that, as anyone who does these type of gigs knows, they don't pay squat. Therefore, even if I play out twice a month it will take me forever just to pay off the modest setup I am proposing. Hence, my REALISTIC assessment that these are "vanity shows". I have a wife, kid and mortgage. I have no intention of quitting my job and trying to support myself on the coffeehouse circuit. And I would suggest to anyone over the age of 21 who does want a wife, kid and mortgage that they either move up from the coffeehouse circuit or start considering music as a hobby and go out and get a real job. Sorry to sound like a Dad here. Ok, I never said you had to quit your day job or support yourself, nor did I say you had to make back what you are spending in gear. (It will be decades before I manage that at this rate). All I said was that you shouldn't be playing for nothing unless it was a charity. Anyone who plays for nothing is making performing music into a hobby - and it isn't. (playing music is, performing music isn't). Originally posted by bigcat I write original material, I think it is pretty good, and I want to share it with people. If I'm good enough to get the gig and get asked back it is my business as to whether I want to present my music in that setting. I just want to present what I'm doing in the best way possible given my financial constraints. This is my community, the people I live with, and there are venues that will let me reach those people (and cover my night's expenses) so why shouldn't I take advantage of those opportunities? Your covering your nights expenses?? 'Good'!!!! You are a professional musician and you are getting paid for it. It took me a year of gigging before I got that far. (pay is low for originals). But I was getting paid something - which is the point. Originally posted by bigcat Do you oppose community theater (which doesn't pay squat) because it takes work away from "real" actors? Well I am a "real" musician and if I choose to stay at a community level and have no interest in aspiring to gold records and stadium tours that doesn't make my music any less valid. My music costs me money, that is just a fact of life. I'll never recoup all I've spent on it but I never expected too. Do we HAVE to measure sucess in this country only by money and fame ? Community theater is an example of what music could become if people don't fight for it as professionals - community theater doesn't have to take quite the talent or expense that a musician has to have so it lends itself to being thought of as a hobby. People expect to see volunteers and students involved in a community performance - I would challenge you to say the same for musicians outside of a community band situation (and the band usually gets paid even if the members do not). I am a community musician. It costs me money, but I expect to be paid something for each and every time I perform. It is only in the last couple of months that I have made enough to cover rehearsal studio costs and petrol - but I was always getting something. Originally posted by bigcat That does NOT mean I do not take my music seriously. I do. But I have to balance it with other aspects of my life and I have to acknowledge that it is never going to be a significant icome source. That is WHY it is a hobby (sorry if you don't like that word, but that's what it is). BTW if you add in the cost of guitars and other equipment and the "opportunity cost" for the endless hours of practice, I'd contend that almost every musician out there has been financing a very expense hobby whether they want to admit it or not. I don't like to look at things in such starkly economic terms however. And 13 years of school + 3 years of uni to become a proffesional? How long is it going to take to pay that back? We can't look at a job in terms of what it cost us X number of years ago - if it makes money now then that is what counts. (if I get a job as a musician making 30,000 a year, I'm not going to call that less because I've spent money on music in my past). For me music has only recently started making significant income. Not from my original band (which you could call the hobby part - though we always get paid somthing) but from the pub rock band that I'm playing in at least every week or two. That shouldn't however mean that the originals band is less important - it is more important and should be paid something. Originally posted by bigcat Maybe my use of the term "vanity shows" hit a little too close to home for some people but they need to assess that for themselves. I wish you sucess in whatever manner you want to express your music in your life. I however may not WANT to do what YOU want to do. New agey response: But that doesn't make it any less valid. Non-new agey response: So FU. PS I promise I won't steal any of your gigs. You'd have a hard time unless you were in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MoosBros Posted August 3, 2003 Members Share Posted August 3, 2003 Originally posted by bigcat Whoa! Did I just hit a nerve somewhere? Do you oppose community theater (which doesn't pay squat) because it takes work away from "real" actors? End of rant. So back to the issue at hand. I really would like opinons from people with more experience than myself whether I should go with the Yamaha or the Behringer or scuttle them both given what is is I want to do (but please offer a reasonable alternative). Thanks PS I promise I won't steal any of your gigs. Yes, you did hit a nerve... I really have strong sentiments about amature hobbyists who provide live musical entertainment for free in business establishments. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statements about your particular situation. I have done local community theater musicals(as a musician), and in fact, was rather well paid for my services as a professional musician. the actors, on the other hand, were not paid. local theaters operate more as an institution to support the fine arts, and generally operate thru donations and sponsors, and are almost like a charity organization. they really don't operate as a business to "make money" partly by using local entertainment in their establishments, bars, dance halls, etc... .... Theater is a more esoteric endeavor, for the sake preserving and promotion of fine arts.... Keroke comes to mind,, when I envision "free entertainment" in local pubs.....and I'm pretty sure the folks who are providing that service to the clubs are quite overpaid......but it IS extremely popular it seems.... so, to further address your questions concerning your equipment purchases....you really did not state a particular budget, which would help some in making suggestions towards your specific requirements..although I may infer from your "packages" you are trying to stay around the $500-600 range.... you can do well in coffee house environements with a 10"/1" type of speaker(or even smaller)... the horn lens ideally would have quite a wide dispersion pattern(100-120 degrees) since your audience will be in close proximity to them, and feedback would not be much of a factor, since SPL levels would not be very high.... a powered mixer with effects sounds like it would work, but separates would work too, if carefully planned for compactness, portability, and ease of set=up.... I would suggest you try to use 200-250 watts per speaker as a minimum criteria for power needs, even for vocals and acoustic guitar @ coffee house levels.....always keep it clean, and crisp... you'll need speaker stands,, and cabling for whatever way you go.. a mic stand, a boom arm, extension cord and multi-outlet tap, a comfortable stool,possibly a music stand, some type of case(s) for everything....mabe a couple of PAR38 lamps, hanginging bracket(and extension cords) and gels for the mood.....I don't think $500 is gonna go very far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kid Klash Posted August 4, 2003 Members Share Posted August 4, 2003 Risking being flamed to death by some folks here, I bought the Behringer PMX-2000 exactly one month ago, and so far, I love it. It's got plenty of clean power for what we're doing (we needed a vocal PA for our blues band, for our weekly 20-120 people gigs; we're running four vocal mics - three SM-57s and one MD-421, and a CD player for when we're taking breaks). I LOVE reverb #5, and we're using it as our basic effect. It's got a ton of other effects including a tastey sounding slapback echo. Thanks to my ASCAP discount, it cost me $324 including two 25 foot SPEAKON - 1/4" connector speaker cables through my local Guitar Center. I already have four very efficient 8 ohm JBL wedge monitors, which I use for the front end and vocal monitors. For a very small investment, I've got a killer little vocal PA that more than keeps up with our drums, bass, guitar and keys. We're using it for rehearsals too, most of which have been on sunny summer days in a garage, running ambient temperatures of around 90-95 degrees F. At the end of our 4-5 hour rehearsals, the only thing that overheated and shut down was our drummer! Bring on the beer! Whn you're looking at the others, check out the PMX-2000 if your local dealer still has one in stock - they can't keep them in stock at my local GC in Portland Oregon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WGH Posted August 5, 2003 Members Share Posted August 5, 2003 Here's what I bought and I've been playing the same type of venues you're likely to. I'm really happy and have received many compliments. http://www.music123.com/Item/?itemno=79275 I use a little Kustom 4 channel powered mixer (80 watts...about $100 on ebay). Samson R21 mics are often sold in 3-packs for $60.00. Ultra mic stands (round base)...I got mine for $17.00 each. Musiciansfriend has mic cables for $4.99 (speaker cables come with the Dawn system.) Yes the amplifier is suspect (it's done ok by me)...but the Dawn system has received good reviews around here. I have used this setup with just my wife and me (1 acoustic guitar), full band (3 vocals, electric guitar, bass, and drums), and even used it at a choir concert. As long as you're indoors you'll get great, full sound. Outside is okay as long as you don't need to get too loud to get over the drums (the Dawn system really needs walls to bounce off of, especially the sub.) Anyway...I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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