Getting Effects from Board to Tape.

[Robin Sengupta]

Hi!

I just tried to record something direct from the mixing board to tape.

It recorded well - but there were no effects in the recording.

I recorded from a Mackie CFX 20 - from the Tape Outs.

The "EFX To Monitor" knobs were turned all the way Anti-clockwise [Off].

What is the best way to get a recording off the board to a tape recorder AND get the effects on the recording as well?

Thanks!

The Mackie Owner's Manual says:

"Use these jacks to capture the entire performance to Tape. The signal at these jacks is the main mix, after the MAIN INSERT, but before the Main Mix Fader . . .."

[Craig Vecchione]

That's odd, according to the block diagram:

 

http://www.mackie.com/pdf/cfxseries_ss.pdf

 

...the tape outs are right in the main signal path, before the EQ and the Main levels, and definitely after EFX. It appears that anything you sent to the main power amps would be picked up at the tape outs.

 

By any chance were you using a subgroup send for your mains, and not sending any EFX to the mains?

[Robin Sengupta]

"By any chance were you using a subgroup send for your mains, and not sending any EFX to the mains?" - craigv

 

I'm not sure I know enough to answer correctly because I don't exactly understand your question. I don't understand the meaning of, "using a subgroup send for your mains".

 

What DO know is that the internal EFX from the CFX AND the External [Lexicon MPX-1] effects were both very definitely in the Main mix in the House. Does that answer your question sufficiently?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by Robin Sengupta "By any chance were you using a subgroup send for your mains, and not sending any EFX to the mains?" - craigv I'm not sure I know enough to answer correctly because I don't exactly understand your question. I don't understand the meaning of, "using a subgroup send for your mains". What DO know is that the internal EFX from the CFX AND the External [Lexicon MPX-1] effects were both very definitely in the Main mix in the House. Does that answer your question sufficiently?

 

 

Well, maybe...

 

If the board's MAIN was actually used to send the main signal to the house, and that signal had EFX, then the tape out would have to have EFX, since there's no way I can see to remove them from the signal chain at that point.

 

However, since the Mackie has stereo mains, and no summed-mono main output, it's not unusual to use one of the auxiliary outputs as a mono mains send to the house instead of shifting all balance and pan controls either left or right to get a mono signal. If that was done, then it appears to be possible to send EFX to the auxiliary and not to the mains, and that would explain the uneffected tape signal.

[5slinger]

I use a room mic (actually 2) and run them I/O to my tape deck for live stuff. Hook up your room mic (preferably a decent large diphram condensor) into a channel with an I/O (I think the Mackie you listed has these). Use a standard 1/4" mono cable at the I/O jack to your left or right input jack of your tape deck and !!!!????

you have a recording with efx. USe one room mic for left input and one for right and you can get a true stereo mix to tape.

 

CJ:D

[Robin Sengupta]

Thanks, everyone. I just got off the phone [i was on hold for 5 minutes] with a Mackie Rep - here's what he said:

1. The Tape Outs should have the full Mix WITH the internal effects AND the external effects that we are using.

2. Sinc we're using the XLRs for the Main Outs - I can also take the signal from the 1/4" Main Outs to the Tape Deck.

3. There is also a Utility Out that can be used.

 

I'll be trying this out this evening - I'll post the outcome here tomorrow.

 

Thanks, everyone.

[Robin Sengupta]

Hi!

I played around with the Mixer & the Tape Deck last night and was able to get the effects through to the Tape Recorder.

The only thing I changed was - I noticed that Subs 1 & 2 had been set to Left & subs 3 & 4 to right . . . I just made 1 Left & 2 Right. I can't see how that would make any difference, however.

I still used the Tape Outs.

The only thing that changed from when I made the observation was that the singer I recorded was on a different mic and he was on the stage. I recorded myself [guitar & voice] from the sound booth and was able to get effects recorded.

I wish I knew what the deal was.

Thanks for your help.

[Robin Sengupta]

Does any of you have any experience running recordings straight from the board - just for the band to listen to later - as a kind of reference?

I remember reading something about the levels of the instruments on stage having to be set in a particular way . . . ??

I would appreciate any tips & tricks.

We don't have 2 [or even one] large diaphragm recording mic.

Thanks!

Robeen

[ashivraj]

if you're using the board SOLELY to record the band - say, at practice or something, where all the band really needs is a monitor mix, and you ahve the main faders to yourself, you'll need to isolate yourself as much as possible - big headphones with foam around them, iso buds, and a separate room, in increasing order of effectiveness. then you can set the levels without having to 'mix-minus' based on what you hear.

 

if you're using the board primarily for SR, say at a live show, then you'll either have to live with a mix-minus, or use a post-fader aux send (or two for stereo). mix-minus is you mixing stuff so that the vocals are really heavy, and guitars and drums are just a touch because they're already loud enough from the stage. then what you'll get on the tape will be lots of vocals, and a tad each of bass, guitars, and drums.

 

using post-fader sends, again, will have to have you isolated enough to ignore what's coming off the stage, and concentrate on what's coming through the mics.

 

all this, considering you're not going with CJ and just recording with one or two OH-type mics.

 

hope this helps

 

AS

[Robin Sengupta]

Hi Abhi!

 

I'm actually thinking of both scenarios:

1. Recording the band Live

2. Getting a slightly better recording during a rehearsal.

 

We do not have any Large diaphragm condenser mics with which to record - so what I'm doing is taking the Tape Outs from the Mixing Board direct to the Tape Deck - on the assumption that I'm getting the Main Mix at those Outputs.

 

We DO have a separate setup with a MOTU 1296 and Cubase & Wavelab etc with which we can record upto 12 simultaneous tracks [which is usually enough for us] - but our Recording guy is on a contract on the East Coast & I'm still learning the Cubase interface etc . . .

 

In the meanwhile - I'm just curious as to how clean a recording I can get direct from the board.

 

Any comments . . . suggestions . . .?

 

Another thing I noticed when I made the recording last night. It came out ok and all that - but when I took it home to play it on my stereo system - I had to crank the volume up to 12 o clock on the amplifier to get a good level - whereas for commercially produced CDs & Tapes - 9 o clock is usually all I need.

???

[MichaelSTE]

Robin...

 

I recently did some live recording too. It turned out so good, we're selling mastered copies at our gigs now.

 

Check out these threads for more solid advice(along the lines of the same things said) here:

 

link to previous thread 1

 

Link to previous thread 2

 

link to previous thread 3

 

Post some results when you get them. If you need a host, you can e-mail em to me. I'd be glad to help out.

[ashivraj]

 

Originally posted by Robin Sengupta Hi Abhi! I'm actually thinking of both scenarios: 1. Recording the band Live 2. Getting a slightly better recording during a rehearsal. We do not have any Large diaphragm condenser mics with which to record - so what I'm doing is taking the Tape Outs from the Mixing Board direct to the Tape Deck - on the assumption that I'm getting the Main Mix at those Outputs. SD condensors would work too, if you have any. sometimes, folks use even dynamics like 57s (!!) for a pinch. We DO have a separate setup with a MOTU 1296 and Cubase & Wavelab etc with which we can record upto 12 simultaneous tracks [which is usually enough for us] - but our Recording guy is on a contract on the East Coast & I'm still learning the Cubase interface etc . . . yea, i hear you. our studio has cubase and i havent had enough time (or inclination) to play with it. im more of a cakewalk (hehheh) guy myself. In the meanwhile - I'm just curious as to how clean a recording I can get direct from the board. Any comments . . . suggestions . . .? For recording the band live, using line outs, your recording wont be much more than reference for the band to hear their mistakes, etc. it wont be worth distributing. unless, of course, it's a large venue with low stage sound and everything miced - in which case, it's anyway a large board, plus a combination of good overheads and direct line outs - or sometimes, just a lot of OH mics. studio wise, use a pre-fader aux to give them monitoring, and use the main faders for a decent mix. it'll sound better (usually) as you mic more and more stuff, coz then you get more control of the mix. Another thing I noticed when I made the recording last night. It came out ok and all that - but when I took it home to play it on my stereo system - I had to crank the volume up to 12 o clock on the amplifier to get a good level - whereas for commercially produced CDs & Tapes - 9 o closk is usually all I need. ??? you'd have to play with the tape out level. i believe there's a knob for that (crap, i use the CFX 12 a lot and am suffering from a good braindump right now). if you can PFL it, see that you're getting close to 0dB, that might help. AS

 

 

Addendum: reading your next post... the CFX (if i remember right) has two more knobs, called efx 1 (int) and efx 2 (ext). you can use the ext efx send as a post-fader aux send, but it'll be in mono.

 

AS

[Robin Sengupta]

Hi Michael!

I read through the three threads that you posted and . . .

I'm still needing confirmation about how you're recording your 'Beatles'.

If I understand correctly - you've got your Aux sends on each of your individual channel strips set to Post Fader - right?

Then . . . you're taking the signal from the Aux Outs directly to your CD Burner - right?

Ok - something one of the responders said threw me a little - are you also using microphones in the house to enhance the sound of your recording? Or are you just taking it solely from the Midas Venice 320 Mixer - like what I'm trying to do with our Mixer?

Since I'm not really a sound guy per se - just by default - since we don't have a sound guy right now - I don't understand all the terminology - for instance - I don't know if I can do the Aux sends thing - our Mackie CFX20 has two Aux sends on each channel & we use them to adjust two sets of Monitors one set basically for the singers in front - and the other for the keyboard player & the drummer on the 'back line' - the guitars [me] & bass are using our own amps as monitors and we've got enough coming out of them for everyone else too - though we're not a loud band or anything.

Well . . . if I'm using our two Aux sends on each channel to feed the stage Monitors - that pretty much rules that option out for us - right? But if I understand you correctly - you use these because you can set individual levels here - independent of the Main mix - right?

And you're hearing the "Mix" through the CD Burner's headphone output - right?

I'm really impressed with the fact that you're getting good enough recordings to sell as a finished product & though I don't expect the same results with a Mackie CFX20 & sm-58s - I'm still interested in getting as close as possible to a good Live Recording as possible.

I would appreciate any tips.

Thanks!

[MichaelSTE]

Robin...

 

I mixed on a CFX20 for 2 years before I got my Midas. If your using the Aux sends for the monitor mix, obviously my method is not possible. However, it IS possible to get a very good live recording.

 

On the Mackie is a tape out. This is the main mix, including efx.

If you can record in a large room, or outdoors, you can get a mix from your mains that is less affected by the stage volume. In my mind, this is your best shot.

 

On my Midas recording, I essentially recorded a left/right mix from the aux send on each channel. I return my 3 outboard efx to the stereo channels, and sent them to Aux sends, so the vocal mix wasn't dry.

 

And, yes, i monitored the mix thru the CD-R's phone jacks. Again, this is affected by the sonic environment. The songs posted were recorded in a large (500-700) hall, that had good acoustics. I didn't use any ambient mics, but instead added some reverb later in Sonic Forge.

[Robin Sengupta]

"On the Mackie is a tape out. This is the main mix, including efx.

If you can record in a large room, or outdoors, you can get a mix from your mains that is less affected by the stage volume. In my mind, this is your best shot." - MichaelSTE

 

Ok - so I'm at least partly on track - I'm taking the recording out of the Tape Outs.

I don't understand how the mix is affected by stage volume. . . and what I can do to minimize this . . .

For instance, if we decided at a rehearsal that we wanted a good recording off the mixer - what steps should we take?

We DO have a large room - about 100ft / 100ft [roughly] . . . and we DO have a couple of adjoining rooms that we can use - and we have an extra [older] Mackie 24-track board which I personally think is a better board but it doesn't have built-in effects . . .

I'm not sure how the stage sound affects the recording - since everything [instruments & voices] is going into the board - and from there to the house - either by DI Box - or by microphone. . . and since I am taking the mix from the board to the Tape Outs - and since I don't have any mics except the vocal sm 58s running . . .

[MichaelSTE]

Robin...

 

Whenever you 'mix' music, your combining various and different audio signals. When you mic the lead guitar amp, your taking a signal from the mic, processing it thru the board and out to the PA speakers. What you have to remember is that thats not ALL your hearing in the room. The guitar amplifier is still pumping out sound that gets added to the PA's sound when it reaches your ears.

 

Consequently, the signals and subsequent sound from instruments that are audible without amplification(guitar amps, drums, bass cabs) go into and come out of the mixing board with a much lower strength than say, a vocal mic or keyboard.

 

So, when you record straight from the board, you tend to have loud vocals, and keyboards, and quiet drums, bass and guitars. This is because the vocals need to be amplified much more than instruments that have thier own audio source(on-stage amplifiers and drums.)

 

If you think of the output of the board as your ears, and you were in an isolated place, where you couldn't hear the drums and amps, you'd 'mix' the signals to something that is balanced and listenable.

[Robin Sengupta]

"Whenever you 'mix' music, your combining various and different audio signals. When you mic the lead guitar amp, your taking a signal from the mic, processing it thru the board and out to the PA speakers. What you have to remember is that thats not ALL your hearing in the room. The guitar amplifier is still pumping out sound that gets added to the PA's sound when it reaches your ears.

 

Consequently, the signals and subsequent sound from instruments that are audible without amplification(guitar amps, drums, bass cabs) go into and come out of the mixing board with a much lower strength than say, a vocal mic or keyboard.

 

So, when you record straight from the board, you tend to have loud vocals, and keyboards, and quiet drums, bass and guitars. This is because the vocals need to be amplified much more than instruments that have thier own audio source(on-stage amplifiers and drums.)

 

If you think of the output of the board as your ears, and you were in an isolated place, where you couldn't hear the drums and amps, you'd 'mix' the signals to something that is balanced and listenable." - MichaelSTE

 

Michael - that is the first time I have had that explained so clearly to me.

As a guitar player - I've heard a lot of comments about "the louder you play on stage, the softer you're going to be on the recording . . . " - I've even believed that - from experience - but this is the first time I've seen an explanation that has made perfect sense to me.

Thanks!

I know that I am much better equipped to exploit the Mackie board now that I have understood more.

This thread - like several others that I've had - has been a real education for me.

It has really helped me to have to stop & think of some of the terminology - even 'simple' terms like 'pre-fader' which I had never given a thought to before.

Thanks, everyone.

[Robin Sengupta]

I have another question:

the more I think about it - the more I like MichaelSTE's suggestion about taking the recording from the Aux Outs on our Mackie - to give us some control of the recording levels for each instrument/voice.

Since, however, this is where our Monitors are coming out of currently - what other options do we have?

Can we [realistically] route our monitors some other way?

I mentioned that we do have a spare Mackie 24-channel Mixer. Is there some way we can use that in this whole scenario?

[MichaelSTE]

Robin...

 

If you have 6 aux sends, on the Mackie (is it the 8 bus or 4?), you can use 2 pre-fader for monitors, 1(or 2, if you have another) post fader for efx, and 2 post fader for your recording matrix. Use the Aux out of the 2 post fader aux groups to feed a CD-R or MD as a Left/Right signal.

[Robin Sengupta]

"If you have 6 aux sends, on the Mackie (is it the 8 bus or 4?), you can use 2 pre-fader for monitors, 1(or 2, if you have another) post fader for efx, and 2 post fader for your recording matrix. Use the Aux out of the 2 post fader aux groups to feed a CD-R or MD as a Left/Right signal." MichaelSTE . . .

 

You totally lost me there. I'm still not that familiar with the concepts and terminology that I can follow what you just said.

 

Is it possible for you to simplify what you just said?

 

That reminds me of this riddle that - as a High-School English teacher in India - I would challenge my 12th grade students to punctuate:

 

that that is is that that is not is not is it not

 

I don't mean to be critical or anything . . . I just remembered that even though it looks simple to me - it looked like gibberish to most of my students.

 

I'd appreciate it if you could re-phrase your previous post for me please Michael - thanks!

[MichaelSTE]

no problem...

 

What model Mackie 24 channel board do you have?

[Robin Sengupta]

I am using a Mackie CFX20.

[MichaelSTE]

I mean older one, that doesnt have the built in effects that you menationed earlier. What model is that?

[Robin Sengupta]

Sorry Michael - I missed that . . . I will look this evening and let you know what model that 24-channel board is. It's an old one - but it had a lot MORE on it [apart from the efx - which are useful too].

[Robin Sengupta]

Hi Michael - the board is a Mackie SR24.4.