Help me with sound quality

[Rickr]

Ok,

Finally got my system up and running. Used it Saturday night. I've stated my system in other threads, but I'll run through it for those who pay attention like me.

 

a&h mixwizard 16/2

furman power conditioner

crest cpx 900 = monitors

crest cpx 2600 = mains and subs

crest amps have a crossover with a fixed 150 hz cut.

mains = peavey sp2g - 350 watt rms

subs = audiotechnics ? - 8 ohm, can't find a listing for wattage

monitors = 2 nady 150 watt for front wedges

1 ca house brand wedge 1500 watt for electronic drum

 

Lead guitar is miked off his amp with a sm57

Bass player plays through his amp with a line out to mixer.

 

3 vocal mikes = I do most of the singing and use a sm58s. One of

the guys is using a sm57, and the other, I have no idea.

 

I wasn't real happy with the sound Saturday, but I believe most of the problem started as a result of stage setup. We had feedback issues early, and instead of correcting the problem, we started cutting the eq on the mixwizard. After awhile the sound just wasn't real clear. I guess you'd call it muddy.

 

All three mikes are set up front of stage in a line, with the 2 wedge monitors setting in front of but between the mikes, if that makes sense. I tried to say that the feedback was most likely coming from here, but what do I know. Was told by the more experienced guys that they've ran it this way before with no problems, so it must be my rack. With no eq ezcept on the mixwizard, it seems to me your chopping a huge section out to get the feedback correcting, leaving your sound bad. How do you guys handle 3 people needing monitor and only 2 mmonitors? And am I right in my thinking here?

 

I also thought that the crossover may be part of the problem. It seems to me that you guys said that a sub simply won't work on the higher frequencies. Not sure what frequency were talking, but most everyone has said that crossover should occur around 100 hz. If the crossover sends everything below 150 to the subs, but the subs will only work to say 120, wouldn't the 121 to 150 be cut just like you took it completely out? If that's true it would surely hurt your sound.

 

I guess what I'm trying to do is get some ideas from you guys how to best fix this problem and where to start.

I'd like to get a powered monitor for the drummer, that would give him his own mix, allow him to change his volume from the stool, and free an amp channel. Then I could have a mix for my flattop and vocal, the drummer have his own mix, and the lead guitarist and bass guitarist could share a channel for their vocals and have their own wedges. Does this sound alright? If I did this, would each monitor send require an eq?

 

Need recommendations please;

 

Crossover , what kind?

eq - I like the peavey with fls. Could I get 1 for the two front wedge sends, where most of the feedback would probably occur, and less expensive, dbx, dod, be.. can't spell it out, but you know who, or would I be better off going with the dbx driverack pa or something. Would take care of feedback, crossover at least some of the eq?

 

Along with all this, the lead guitarist drove me nuts half the night walking out to the mixer screwing with knobs instead of letting the sound guy ( my oldest boy. Didn't know the board that well, but was doing a decent job all things considered) to the point I actually had to call him back up on stage thru the foh pa. Yes, some alcohol was involved. I thought about snaking the whole system to get the rack far enough away from the stage that 1, soundman can here better what the audience hears, and 2 to get it away from the lead guitarist. My problem is, I've got hte amps and everything mounted in one rack, nice and compact. (custom rack) How far could you run the amps from the speakers without problems starting to bite you in the butt? Most venues are small, 100 to 200 people, small rooms, 20X50 foot and Country music, so were not blowing doors down or anything?

 

Ok, I'll shut up. Call me grasshopper and teach me, please.

 

Thanks for any input,

 

RickR

[B. Adams]

Well, that was a long post, so I'll do my best.

 

150Hz is pretty high for subs. And it's not that the frequencies above 120Hz aren't getting reproduced at all, they just aren't going to come across as strongly, and some low end may be sacrificed by the subs trying to reproduce higher frequencies and being strained. I'd recommend a real crossover, like the DBX 223XL. This also has a 40Hz high pass filter, which will also allow your subs to concentrate on what they're supposed to be doing. I usually set my crossover at 80 or 100Hz.

 

Trying to take care of feedback with a channel EQ is kind of pointless. You need much more control than that will offer you. A 31 band EQ on each monitor mix is the best option. I recommend anything DBX makes, and I urge you to stay away from Behringer.

 

A snake would be a wise investment as well. Look at Audiopile for some decent stuff.

 

It is best to have the amps as close to the speakers as possible. I would try to avoid runs of over 50'. The higher gauge speaker cable the better - at least 14 guage. If you have all your amps at FOH, that is a lot of speaker cable to run to the stage. It's better to have a seperate amp rack near the stage. A seperate drive snake to the amp rack would be cheaper, and more effective, than running 6-8 channels of 100' speaker cable to stage. You could use returns in the main snake to get to the amp rack, if that works for you.

[Rickr]

As far as I see it, I'd rerack the amps, and snake the sends and returns to the stage. MY new question what's the differance between the sends and returns on the snake? I've got 6 to 8 sends to the mixer rack, and if I had 3 monitor sends, there would be a total of 5 returns. Could you use 1 of the sends for a return?

 

Thanks for the quick reply, sorry it was so long. Just full of questions.

 

Thanks again,

 

Rick

[Unalaska]

You could use a send as a return by using a M-M XLR coupler and a F-F coupler. The ideal situation would be to use a snake with 8 returns (L&R, 6 sends). Since most people run mono (incl. me) your could get away with 4 returns (Mono, mix 1,2,3 & 4 on a send).

 

16x4 snakes are relatively cheap, 16x8 snake is begging to need more sends, and 24x8 is a little big (that's what I use). 24x4 with 2 sends converted to returns would work well. Getting a 100' version would most likely fit the bill for most rooms.

 

Take the amps out of the FOH rack and replace with dual 31 band eq's. Then use a 10 or 12 space amp rack on wheels for FOH and monitors. I ended up buying 2x 8 channel xlr snakes as well (1 for FOH eq's to snake,1 for nake box to amp racks) although I only use 5 channels. It'll take some elbow grease but ultimately will save time when you least can afford it, right before the gig.

 

pete

[Rickr]

Could you get away without eq'ing the drum kit, or would that be a mistake. Just thinking, 2 dual 31eq gives you 4 channels. 1 foh and the 3 front of stage wedges. If I need to eq the drum monitor I'd need another eq.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[towndog]

Something else to consider besides getting the drummer a powered monitor is to pick up an IEM.

 

I am a drummer and purchased a hard-wired PSM200 about a year ago and will never go back to a wedge. Not only can I hear my vocals (and everyone elses) so much better but I don't have to try and "fit" a wedge around the hi-hat stand or other parts of the drumkit..

[Rickr]

Can you use the in the ear with just one earplug in? What's it like with both in? Don't know if I'd like it or not.

 

Rick

[B. Adams]

Why would you want only one in?

 

And it will probably not sound good with only one in. Try a pair of in-ear headphones, and take one out. You'll see what I mean.

[Rickr]

I was just curious if with both in you would feel, I don't know, detached from the audience. We have people come up and talk to us and such. What happens?

 

Rickr

[Roadkill]

Originally posted by Rickr We have people come up and talk to us and such. What happens?

Well, you point at your ear and shrug and with a bit 'o luck the

moron will go away . I HATE when people do that!

[Rickr]

:D You do have a valid point.

[Rbts]

I workedwith a guy who wore only one of the two ear buds..

 

to be honest, we never thought that he could hear US that well... buthe said he could hear himself just fine...

 

(sometimes WE thought it would be better if he could hear us better too??)

 

Anyhow... I have heard of it being done.... myself, I would not want to do it

 

Many people use an "ambient mike" thatis put into their monitro mix.. so that they can hear the crowd or talkinggoing around them or whatever..

 

Seems like the drummer ought to have a mic around some where that someone could talk into?? (like an overhead condensoror something?

[Rickr]

Right now he doesn't have a mic around. He uses an eletronic kit. My problem is, it seems like an iem is a personal item, something each member should buy for themselves and I can't seem to make that happen. I'm the exception to you guys rule. I'm the lead singer and rhythm guitar, and so far I have bought the sound system as well as the bus, with promises of "We'll pitch in when we get our tax returns back". Just hate to buy him an iem, lol.

 

Later,

Rickr

[tremendo]

I recently got a PSM200 wireless set up, and yesterday at practice I let the drummer try it (wired). At the end of practice, he said "I need one of these". It made all the difference in the world, and he sounded much better and in tune. And we've often had feedback concerns from his headset mic and his monitor, which is also why he's never heard himself as well.