Jump to content

dealing with impossibility, audio for non audio people, or why i am insane


Recommended Posts

  • Members

i have been put to the task once again of revamping an existing PA. this particular PA i a disaster, but has improved over the 9 years i have run it. it is the lowest of the low, a total POS PA.

 

i have three main 'gigs' to create income;

 

1. i run a midsize ev/qsc rig in the real word (4 stacks mtl 1x + tops - about 18,000 watts plus wedge rig) fed by a gl2200/klark teknic eq you get the idea. a decent rig, little rock show. i LIKE THIS RIG.

 

2. i teach live sound at the state U, running an SRX 4 stacks with dbx outboard, crown power, and a gl2400. this is a good rig, not as good as #1 though.

 

3. i am the sound tech for the local park board. this job pays the most, and has the worst rig EVER. PERIOD. ITS BAD FOLKS. i've done it for 9 years because for the amount they pay me i would be a fool not to. i actually love this job, its great. pa sucks balls. this is the pa they want to "upgrade".

 

park pa:

 

2 15" + horns (ahem) audio centron. light bulbs across the horns....300watts at 8ohms. pretty crunchy sound, not very loud. will not compete with rock band stage volume.

 

2 500watt brand X 8ohm amps.

 

2 yamaha sm15V wedges (these are great, same as rig #1. i bought these last year and love them.)

 

1 audio centron 16 channel mixer. this sucks cock and blows donkey balls. its really {censored}, i cannot emphasize this enough.

 

rapco snake, kinked and beat to hell.

 

absolutely NO outboard of ANY KIND. NONE.

 

NO power distribution. all SJ lawn cords. this is bad.

 

14 decent mics, some di's. ALL good cords.

 

aside from the yamahas, this stuff is all 20 years old and falling apart.

 

i ALWAYS have to run this system AND backline off a 20A, sometimes a 15A. not good.

 

they want it 'better'. thats great.

 

i want a new mixer, speakers, amps. they said write a proposal, like i did for the wedges and a previous entire system ($4k, portable function system).

 

problem is, the gear i normally use is expensive and requires a distro of some kind. neither #1 or #2 will run on a 20A even without backline. not even close.

 

i dont think anything bigger than what i have now will run on a 20A.

 

i gave up telling them they needed a bigger, better system years ago. about 5 years have gone by and something happened june 17th and they realize they need a bigger system (duh).

 

without actually building a real system, what speakers can i get that are better than what i have now? jrx's are out, i wont buy that crap. mackie 450's, cant standem.

 

lots of stuff available similar to what i have now. i have a budjet of about $2200 (including mixer, amps, speakers).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Why don't you suggest that they hire your decent system (or some part of it )and get the city out of the PA system business?

Unless they do a lot of shows it seems like they would be better off hiring a system rather then trying to limp by on what they want to spend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

I think you can get the most volume to the air at the lowest consumed amperage with active speakers....they're usually very well matched, the HF amp won't be too big, and with a nearly zero speaker cable run they don't waste any of that power.

 

I'm always suprised at what I can run on one 15a circuit. I've gotten away with running an entire band backline (three smallish guitar combos, one bass amp, and assorted pedals), an RMX2450 and PLX3402, and another Peavey amp for monitors. Plus of course my FOH.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Is there any more power available anywhere near? If so include in your proposal the cost of some power distro from this source. I've seen shows where the backline used more than 20A (what if the drummer shows up with a butt shaker and some massive power amp for it?).

 

If you need max efficiency look into Horn loaded bottoms (and tops of course). This is how they used to do it in the old days (Oh I'm showing my age;) ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

i am in fargo, ND. we run this thing to no end, all the time.

 

i make them rent system #1 for shows we cannot squeak by on with system #3. its about $900 to rent it for one day, including myself and one other tech, plus a certified electrician has to hook in the distro (because its city, state code) and that costs money.

 

system #2 is unavailable to the park. it is owned by state of minnesota, and the park is north dakota (its the same town but i digress)

 

now, not all shows are rock shows. many times it will be one or two people on stage, crowd of 150-300. for this the system is ok, but could be better.

 

HERES WHAT HAPPENED JUNE 17TH:

 

its an 9am to 8pm show, outside. no big deal ive done this particular show 8 times already.

 

this year it was BIG. huge turnout. nickelodeon was there.

 

we had 2100 kids inbetween myself and the stage. kids are LOUD. in fact, louder than this PA. i had to take cues from stage to play disks they sang to. i could not hear the cues. it was a problem.

 

halfway through the first set, i rewired the amp/speakers.

 

i bridged the amp and paralled the speakers. the amp is NOT 4ohm compatible, i knew this and did it anyway. i was in this much trouble folks.

 

this amp does 250Watts each channel into 8ohms.

 

it does 800watts into 8ohms bridged.

 

i ran it 4 ohm bridged, i figure 1200+watts (?) totally unstable and i know better than to do this. i had no choice.

 

it worked, it was loud as hell and i could hear great the rest of the day, but it was VERY easy to light up the horn lights. i was way overpowered and i knew it, plus i was worried sick i would blow something up with the 4/8ohm issue.

 

i got through the day, and it was a success. the performers attended the wrap up meeting, and spoke of this problem and how i "fixed" it. they were very pleased. this got back to me via my boss, who wanted to know what i did. i explained it in great detail, and about how i will never do it again because its dangerous as sin, could have been a disaster, and because i know better.

 

since then she has apparently been fighting for a budget to upgrade this crappy system, and wants a proposal.

 

my last two proposals have gone through verbatim and unchallenged. this suprises me.

 

i could easily put together a great system (way overbudget), but there is no way it would run off a 20A. maybe something has to change with the power situation, but most of the places this pa is run there is no service panel anywhere nearby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

i am thinking about a lowend yamaha MG24/14FX. its probably not the worlds greatest board, but it will indeed beat the snot out of the 20 year old audio centron. i dont even need to hear it to tell you that. my old, used, abused mackie 1604 absolutely smokes the AC board.

 

i have heard horrible things about crown CE2000's, but i run 6 of them and have never had an issue. apparently an internal ground connection can get loose and fry horns like mad. never happened to me, but it scares me.

 

a CE2000 would be a massive increase in power.

 

a CE4000 would be better still.

 

a 3402 is probably out of the question, but i beleive they cost less than a CE4000.

 

anyone have experience with those plastic cased EV speakers? i have never heard them.

 

i'd like to stay away from peavey, although i own and use peavey gear. it seems to turn people off when they see peavey stacks. i've never taken issue with peavey gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Quote from Coaster:

 

anyone have experience with those plastic cased EV speakers? i have never heard them.

 

 

 

 

which ones? The ZX series or the SX series?

 

The ZX are the newer models and the SX are the older ones, I believe the SX always have 12" speakers in them. The ZX4 and ZX5 use 15" speakers.

 

Both sound AWESOME!!!:thu:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • CMS Author

I'd look at QSC RMX power; good warranty (6yr), very reliable, good features, good price.

 

The EV plastic speakers..the SX line, sound very nice. Big range of price and capability.

 

Nothing wrong with that Yamaha MG, but for maybe another $100 you get the A&H Mixwiz. The Peavey FX series is brand new but looks very promising.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

power upgrade would be very nice. problem is that i usually have to share.

 

at the june 17th gig i was plugged into a provided distro, 100amp service but i could only use one 20A outlet (which was actually a 15A duplex outlet, figgur that one out) due to vendor requirements. june 19th i had total access to the distro, and used two 20A (one for backline, other for FOH)

 

i'm off to check out what the local store has in terms of those plastic ev boxes. they do have a set, i have no idea what they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by Coaster

i have heard horrible things about crown CE2000's, but i run 6 of them and have never had an issue. apparently an internal ground connection can get loose and fry horns like mad. never happened to me, but it scares me.

 

 

I'm not sure this is a true statement... I hear a lot of things but not this particular one and I'm pretty familiar with the CE-2000 platform. Not my particular favorite but not as horrible as you indicate IME.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by Coaster

i am thin

i have heard horrible things about crown CE2000's, but i run 6 of them and have never had an issue. apparently an internal ground connection can get loose and fry horns like mad. never happened to me, but it scares me.



a CE4000 would be better still.


a .

 

 

Yea I can't remeber the details, but they use a screew to the chassis as the ground, .. if it comes loose the amp goes in to a self occolation or something, and at freq that you can't even hear, and it kills HR drivers. the fix is to use a wire to do the conection, rather then the screew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Just go way over budget and keep stressing how important having great sound is, and how much more revenue you'd bring in with a kickass PA. Have graphs and everything that basically say "AWSUM PA = MOAR MONIES"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

atomic:

 

yes i know butter.

 

yes i know hat.

 

and i am not andy, but i know him too. he owns system #1 plus a bunch more.

 

btw i'm dave.

 

i went and listened to the music store setup. they are sx500's. they had impressive extended lows, however i noticed a weird, big bump around 400-800 or so. the price tag is $900 each. i do not know the ACTUAL price.

 

i also listened to yamaha c115V. no low end, impressive as hell mids/highs. cant do those without subs i guess.

 

explaining audio requirements to these folks is not a lot different than teaching your great grandmother how to program her VCR (although my boss i great)

 

aged:

 

i'll buy that. its never happened to me, and ive run these a long, long time. a couple were bought new when they were first made. 1996? 97? 98?

 

kevinm:

 

i am not thin. i never said i was thin. i'm 5'8" 200lbs, a big fatty with mr middle aged man gut.

 

(i was 246 18 months ago, so i am 'thin' in relation to that disaster)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Originally posted by Coaster

pa sucks balls

 

1 audio centron 16 channel mixer. this sucks cock and blows donkey balls. its really {censored}, i cannot emphasize this enough.

 

 

Al Poulin replies :

 

I once had an old set of TOA speakers that really sucked zebra nipples. I also had a Pyramid mixer that really chewed monkey anus.

But your stuff sounds pretty bad too...

:D

 

I guess we kind of need these expressions somtimes to really emphasize how terrible some equipment was. :thu: Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Just write up two proposals...one hugely overkill, overbudget, huge everything...then, shoot them your reasonable proposal. Even if it's overbudget, next to the evil monster proposal they just heard, it'll be greenlighted in no time. Be sure to include everything you need, including better power!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by Osmosis

Just write up two proposals...one hugely overkill, overbudget, huge everything...then, shoot them your reasonable proposal. Even if it's overbudget, next to the evil monster proposal they just heard, it'll be greenlighted in no time. Be sure to include everything you need, including better power!

 

Either that or you'll luck out and have them figure that "more expensive is better and worth it" and you get the huge system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by Coaster

atomic:


yes i know butter.


yes i know hat.


and i am not andy, but i know him too. he owns system #1 plus a bunch more.


btw i'm dave.


 

Hi Dave, I'm Mike, nice to meet ya!

I thought that sounded an awful lot like Andy's rig, lol. I have a rig thats a lot like it except we are using the QRX tops now, instead of the T252's that Andy was running (Still?).

I used to mix Dirty Word pretty regularly (In fact, I'm mixing them in Sturgis during the rally in a couple of weeks, they're getting together to do a couple of days down there). I also mix Ded Walleye from time to time too. Butter asked me if I wanted to come up and help out with some of the shows at the pavillion once they are done with the renovations. Thats going to be a killer room when they are done. I can't wait to hear that Nexo Geo T rig that they bought for the place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

In your proposal make sure to point out how much the maintainence of the old system has been costing them over the last few years, and don't forget to account for cables. Show that buying 20 year old gear will just be a money pit and cost them more in the next 3 years to maintain than the amount you went overbudget and that tax payers will want to know in 3 years why you're upgrading the system again on their dime. You could also "accidently" blow one of the speakers or amps at the end of the next gig so it becomes a top priority to get some new reliable gear in a hurry, for which you have the perfect solution. And for the power figure the cost of hiring the electrician multiplied by how many times a year he comes out and compare that to the cost to have some better electric run to the stage (unless it's not always in the same location, then convince the town a portable generator and distro can be used for more than just the events where they need the PA and will save them money within the next 2-3 years). Point out that the old system shouldn't be thrown out and for the smaller acoustic/spoken word events it can be used, and maybe find a way to integrate it into the new system as the monitor rig or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...