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Improving submixer setup for keys?


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My mixer finally died this weekend (damage from a recent fall)... the signal literally disinterating on channels 8/9 & 9/10. In my opinion for $90, these mixers are pretty disposable (this one lasted 3 years) however now that I am in the position of replacing this mixer I'm wondering if this is the right setup for me.

 

I play keys in a rock cover band. 90% of our gigs we run our own sound. about three years ago I built this setup to accomodate all my synth, be flexible for a multitude of setups and allow myself to monitor myself without affecting the rest of the band. For the most part it's a self contained rig.

 

Picture029.jpg

 

I took a Yamaha MG 10/2 mixer, velcroed it to a Core One Guitar Effects pedal board. Next to it I also velcroed a Samson stereo DI to provide ground lift.

 

When I arrive at gigs I just drop it... connect my keys to the mixer, connect XLR cables to the main mixer, and a pair of balanced to a pair of powered wedges at my feet. Total setup time 10-12 minutes... and that's if I'm not rushing.

 

I usually set it up this way.

 

Roland XP30- Dual TRS cable to Channel 9/10

Triton Extreme- Dual TRS Cable to Channel 7/8

Alesis Micron Dual TRS cable to Channel 5/6

4th synth (depending on room or mood) to Channel 3/4

MP3 Player, POD or other device- Channel 2

Vocals (I don't sing just to talk) -Channel 1

 

In a previous thread someone mentioned that I should/could use an isolated transformer to provide ground lift. The DI seems to work fine... and besides the ground lift it also provides the XLR outs (which my mixer doesn't have). The only draw back is the 9 volt that the DI eats every single gig. $5 per gig. Doesn't sound like much, but multiply that times 60 gigs and it's $105 a year. Cost of business I guess.

 

One thing I'd like to improve on is ... to be able to send a monitor feed from the FOH back to one or both of my keys amps. Recently our band went to IEM's and since then I have a hard time hearing them behind the FOH.

 

 

I don't want to over complicate things. I gig nearly every weekend nearly 8-10 times a month in the summer. If someone has a suggestion to simplfy this or produce some efficiency I'm all ears.

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are those mixers any good?

 

a di is an isolating transformer. get a passive one my man, no 9v battery. a $40 rapco or whirlwind is fine.

 

use a foh send and give up channel 4 on your mixer to it for vocals. run that keyboard in channel three only and enjoy it in mono.

 

i havent heard much about those mixers, but have contemplated getting one for a similar setup.

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Originally posted by Coaster

are those mixers any good?




use a foh send and give up channel 4 on your mixer to it for vocals. run that keyboard in channel three only and enjoy it in mono.


i havent heard much about those mixers, but have contemplated getting one for a similar setup.

 

 

It's a great little mixer. Not much noise at all, and other than the 'drop' and resulting mess, it worked great for 3 years. I have a spare connected to my home studio.

 

Just curious... what is the purpose of using up a stereo channel for my vocal mic.... one that I barely use? Any advantage?

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in the picture, it looks like channel 4 is a mono input. if its not, dont do that. use a mono input instead. be aware that the foh send can be a hot signal, not a mic signal - usually anywhere from -6 to +4 (can be even more or less depending)

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Why send vocals into the submixer at all? Send it to the board, and let them send you back a monitor level. Or if your IEM rig has a built-in splitter (passthrough), send your mic through that instead. IMO you should submix only keys, and use the stereo out from the mixer to the stereo DI.

 

As Coaster said, a passive DI will do just fine. If you want to continue using your present active one, get the FOH board to send phantom to those two channels (or have them switch on global phantom). No more batteries except in emergencies.

 

You can get a monitor feed from the board into any unused channel - normally a mono channel (or mono input on a stereo channel), assuming you're getting a single mono monitor mix - and add that to whatever aux send you're using from the submix to your keys amp. And yes it's better to use a balanced cable between mixers, especially if the FOH mixer isn't near you.

 

Hope this helps!

 

AS

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Originally posted by ashivraj

Why send vocals into the submixer at all? Send it to the board, and let them send you back a monitor level. Or if your IEM rig has a built-in splitter (passthrough), send your mic through that instead. IMO you should submix only keys, and use the stereo out from the mixer to the stereo DI.


As Coaster said, a passive DI will do just fine. If you want to continue using your present active one, get the FOH board to send phantom to those two channels (or have them switch on global phantom). No more batteries except in emergencies.


You can get a monitor feed from the board into any unused channel - normally a mono channel (or mono input on a stereo channel), assuming you're getting a single mono monitor mix - and add that to whatever aux send you're using from the submix to your keys amp. And yes it's better to use a balanced cable between mixers, especially if the FOH mixer isn't near you.


Hope this helps!


AS

 

 

Well I don't have IEM's, the rest of the band does. Since we run with IEM's we have no floor monitors or side fills. I don't IEM's need them as I'm the only member who doesn't sing and it's silly to run a seperate wedge/amp EQ just for me when I have two keys amps to listen through. I'm perfectly happy with a pair of keys amps to monitor my synths and some of the vocals. After all it's pretty loud on stage, and I see my bandmates sing. I just can't hear them too well.

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Oh ok, didn't know you weren't on ears too.

 

For your vocal, you could try using a passive splitter (Y-cable), one side feeding your submixer, the other side feeding FOH. Or, if you're happy with your vocal level in the monitor feed coming from FOH, then you don't even need to split.

 

The thing is, for every separate output you need from your submix (I'm counting 2 for keys to FOH, 1 or 2 for keys to the amps, and 1 for vocals to FOH... that's like 5), you'll need more aux sends. So 5 outs is 2 (L/R) plus 3 aux sends, which I'm not sure the board has.

 

So - how are you feeding your keys amps? i.e. from what output(s), and are they in stereo? Use the same send(s) from the vocal and/or monitor channels, they will then appear in your keyboard amps.

 

I have a feeling I'm causing more confusion than help...

 

AS

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Originally posted by ashivraj

Oh ok, didn't know you weren't on ears too.


For your vocal, you could try using a passive splitter (Y-cable), one side feeding your submixer, the other side feeding FOH. Or, if you're happy with your vocal level in the monitor feed coming from FOH, then you don't even need to split.


The thing is, for every separate output you need from your submix (I'm counting 2 for keys to FOH, 1 or 2 for keys to the amps, and 1 for vocals to FOH... that's like 5), you'll need more aux sends. So 5 outs is 2 (L/R) plus 3 aux sends, which I'm not sure the board has.


So - how are you feeding your keys amps? i.e. from what output(s), and are they in stereo? Use the same send(s) from the vocal and/or monitor channels, they will then appear in your keyboard amps.


I have a feeling I'm causing more confusion than help...


AS

 

"I have a feeling I'm causing more confusion than help..."

 

That's OK! It's helping me sort all this out ;)

:D

 

The Submixer's ST out is sent to the DI, then out to the Main mixer. I use the C/R outs to feed toe monitor wedges at my feet. I love this setup becuase I can control the volume of my monitor mix with one knob, w/o affecting the main mix. Depending on the song and/or patch I can pull my monitor mix up or down. Again the problem is hearing my bass player who are 10-15 feet away from my setup. What I need is a way to feed their monitor mix into the keys amps.

 

Actually I think you've spelled this out. :thu:

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Originally posted by wheresgrant3



"I have a feeling I'm causing more confusion than help..."


That's OK! It's helping me sort all this out
;)
:D

The Submixer's ST out is sent to the DI, then out to the Main mixer. I use the C/R outs to feed toe monitor wedges at my feet. I love this setup becuase I can control the volume of my monitor mix with one knob, w/o affecting the main mix. Depending on the song and/or patch I can pull my monitor mix up or down. Again the problem is hearing my bass player who are 10-15 feet away from my setup. What I need is a way to feed their monitor mix into the keys amps.


Actually I think you've spelled this out.
:thu:

 

Yup...all you need is either a monitor feed from the bassist, or even a split of his DI if all you need is him alone, to feed your submixer.

 

All things considered, unless someone has a suggestion for a really small mixer that's already got xformer-balanced XLR stereo outs, I'd replace the Yammie directly.

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Originally posted by Craigv



Yup...all you need is either a monitor feed from the bassist, or even a split of his DI if all you need is him alone, to feed your submixer.


All things considered, unless someone has a suggestion for a really small mixer that's already got xformer-balanced XLR stereo outs, I'd replace the Yammie directly.

 

I have one - the dreaded Mackie DFX6, which gets slammed on this forum a lot :o ...but guess what? It works fine for me & has built-in effects that I do use on occasion for very small gigs.

 

It has balanced outs - no DI required. The sound guys that work the gigs I do w/a wedding band tell me it puts out a very hot signal, lots of gain - which is cool I guess, certainly better than the other way around, rght?

 

Grant -

Doesn't your band run 2 - count them, TWO - powered subs, the Yorkie LS800P's...? And isn't your bassist running from his amp or a DI into those subs? You mean to tell me you can't hear him thru all of that firepower? Man, you guys must really be loud... :freak:

 

BTW -

My suggestion Re: vocal monitors is that you get set up w/IEM's like everyone else. Even if you don't sing, you need to be able to hear the vocals prominently, no? I'm laughing at your comment about how you can "see" them sing but not always hear them... what good is that? And if I remember, you did sing backups at one point - so what if one night one of your bandmates has a cold or something and asks you to step up to the mic. again to help out? Having the IEM's would allow for that - whereas not having them would make it quite tricky, methinks... :p

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Originally posted by ashivraj

Why send vocals into the submixer at all? Send it to the board, and let them send you back a monitor level.

AS

 

I agree - your vocal mic./"talking" mic. shouldn't go into your own keys submixer, what's the point? Send to the FOH, get a line back from there to your rig if you need to hear it out of your own keys monitors.

 

Better yet, get your own IEM system like everyone else. :D

 

Which IEM's are you using? I think I read your previous posts about 'em a while back, but can't remember...

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Originally posted by Craigv

GigMan, I'm not so sure the DFX6's output is protected against phantom power...it surely doesn't have an output transformer. Some mixers are okay with phantom, some aren't.

 

Ok, umm, so... uh, what does that mean? :confused::o

 

Is it that if I run an XLR cable (standard mic. cable) from my DFX6 to the FOH mixer and there's phantom power on the channel into which my XLR is input, it could cause damage to the DFX?

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Originally posted by GigMan



Ok, umm, so... uh, what does that mean?
:confused::o

Is it that if I run an XLR cable (standard mic. cable) from my DFX6 to the FOH mixer and there's phantom power on the channel into which my XLR is input, it could cause damage to the DFX?

 

Bingo. A DI (or even a simple barrel transformer thingy) would isolate the two and guarantee no phantom being seen at your mixer's outputs.

 

AS

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Originally posted by ashivraj



Bingo. A DI (or even a simple barrel transformer thingy) would isolate the two and guarantee no phantom being seen at your mixer's outputs.


AS

 

 

Ok, there is phantom power on my DFX6, but I always have the button disengaged - are you talking about if I accidentally engage it on my mixer or if it's engaged on the FOH mixer... or both, or either?

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Originally posted by GigMan



I have one - the dreaded Mackie DFX6, which gets slammed on this forum a lot
:o
...but guess what? It works fine for me & has built-in effects that I do use on occasion for very small gigs.


It has balanced outs - no DI required. The sound guys that work the gigs I do w/a wedding band tell me it puts out a very hot signal, lots of gain - which is cool I guess, certainly better than the other way around, rght?


Grant -

Doesn't your band run 2 - count them, TWO - powered subs, the Yorkie LS800P's...? And isn't your bassist running from his amp or a DI into those subs? You mean to tell me you can't hear him thru all of that firepower? Man, you guys must
really
be loud...
:freak:

BTW -

My suggestion Re: vocal monitors is that you get set up w/IEM's like everyone else. Even if you don't sing, you need to be able to hear the vocals prominently, no? I'm laughing at your comment about how you can "see" them sing but not always hear them... what good is that? And if I remember, you did sing backups at one point - so what if one night one of your bandmates has a cold or something and asks you to step up to the mic. again to help out? Having the IEM's would allow for that - whereas not having them would make it quite tricky, methinks...
:p

 

I hear ya G'... but it's not practical for me, nor neccesary for me to spend $600+ on a pair of IEM's when I don't sing a single note. Ugh... and it's another 9 volt to contend with (I hope to be battery free by 2007).

 

My keyboard monitor solutions is great.... I have vast control over what I hear and don't want to hear, and I'd rather not change that.

 

 

You know... there is a definately downside to using all IEM's and having NO stage monitor mix. Then you are 100% dependent on the FOH for vocals. Some places we play the crowd curves to the side of the band... it's unavoidable. The UYorkvilles like to throw sound but their field is very narrow. So people on stage left or right hear drums, bass, guitars and keys but barely any vocals. Of course it's easy to say... "well they should be in front of the band... but as I said, some rooms, setups it's unavoidable.

 

 

 

 

Haha... yes we do ha LS800P subs, but remember they are FOH. Our Bassist keeps his stage somewhat volume low, like we all try to, but between him and me is a drummer and some crash cymbals. It's hard to make out what he is playing all of the time. Since I coordinate my keys with his bass lines often I find my right ear stretching to find his signal through our stage mix.

 

And yes ... we are very loud... or should I say 'aggressive'. :D

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Originally posted by GigMan



I agree - your vocal mic./"talking" mic. shouldn't go into your own keys submixer, what's the point?

 

Well the point is... that I stand nearly 25 to 30 ft away from board and/or snake. Why run another mic cable, and use another channel just so I can say "How you doing Albany???? Drink Mother f**kers!"? That doesn't seem incredibly efficent. Honestly I use it about 1-2 times a night... mostly to answer one of my band members on stage if they or the crowd asks a question. Better... it's also a mic we throw occasionally out to the audience.. so with a quick twist of the knob I can turn down their signal... instead of having our sound guy do it. ;)

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Originally posted by wheresgrant3



I hear ya G'... but it's not practical for me, nor neccesary for me to spend $500+ on a pair of IEM's if I don't sing a single note. My keyboard monitor solutions is great.... I have vast control over what I hear and don't want to hear, and I'd rather not change that.


Haha... yes we do ha LS800P subs, but remember they are FOH. Our Bassist keeps his stage somewhat volume low, like we all try to, but between him and me is a drummer and some crash cymbals. It's hard to make out what he is playing all of the time. Since I coordinate my keys with his bass lines often I find my right ear stretching to find his signal through our stage mix.


And yes ... we are very loud... or should I say 'aggressive'.
:D

 

I guess I follow you on not wanting to drop 5C's on IEM's but still, you definitely want to get some solution going where you can hear the vocals more clearly - I guess that's part of the point of yer original post, though eh... :confused::freak::D

 

But w/the bass plyr./volume issue - you must play some pretty big venues these days if the fact that the subs are "FOH" means that you can't hear the bass coming out of them! :(

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Originally posted by wheresgrant3



Well the point is... that I stand nearly 25 to 30 ft away from board and/or snake. Why run another mic cable, and use another channel just so I can say "How you doing Albany???? Drink Mother f**kers!"? That doesn't seem incredibly efficent.

 

ROTFL... :D

 

BTW -

I feel your pain - I am usually that far away from the FOH mixer on gigs, since I often am put off to the side ("Nobody puts Baby in the corner!... :p").

 

But still, if your vox mix. is in w/your submixer and you run one line to the FOH - then what happens if there's problem w/your mic. and they have to pot it down on the FOH mixer, won't that bring your keys volume down as well? I just don't like that fact that you're merged together - the keys submix & vox. Seems there's actually less control over it all, at least on the FOH mix. What's one other channel? You have a16 channel board, right?

 

BTW - I know you run yourself to monitor in stereo, w/2 Yorkville amps - but do you run a stereo line to the FOH?

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Originally posted by GigMan



Ok, there is phantom power on my DFX6, but I always have the button disengaged - are you talking about if I accidentally engage it on my mixer or if it's engaged on the FOH mixer... or both, or either?

 

Phantom power on your DFX6 is fine, because it feeds all XLR *inputs* on the board. As long as whatever's plugged into the DFX6 XLR inputs - mics, DIs - is phantom safe (most mics and DIs are), you're fine. The worry is phantom being switched on at the main board, which will then appear at the XLR *outputs* of your DFX6.

 

Make sense? :)

 

AS

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Originally posted by ashivraj



Phantom power on your DFX6 is fine, because it feeds all XLR *inputs* on the board. As long as whatever's plugged into the DFX6 XLR inputs - mics, DIs - is phantom safe (most mics and DIs are), you're fine. The worry is phantom being switched on at the main board, which will then appear at the XLR *outputs* of your DFX6.


Make sense?
:)

AS

 

Got it - hasn't been an issue so far (maybe I've been lucky?).

 

But I guess the next gig I'm on where there's a sound crew I should ask to make sure they have Phantom Power off on the channel of the FOH mixer that I run my DFX6 into...?

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Originally posted by GigMan



ROTFL...
:D

BTW -

I feel your pain - I am usually that far away from the FOH mixer on gigs, since I often am put off to the side ("Nobody puts Baby in the corner!... :p").


But still, if your vox mix.if there is a problem with my vocal mic... is in w/your submixer and you run one line to the FOH - then what happens if there's problem w/your mic. and they have to pot it down on the FOH mixer, won't that bring your keys volume down as well? I just don't like that fact that you're merged together - the keys submix & vox. Seems there's actually
less
control over it all, at least on the FOH mix. What's one other channel? You have a16 channel board, right?


BTW - I know you run yourself to monitor in stereo, w/2 Yorkville amps - but do you run a stereo line to the FOH?

 

Um.... again... why spend $500 on a monitor solution when I already have TWO keyboard amps that can perfectly carry the signal. You know me... I'm not cheap... I'd just rather spend $500 on a new keyboard. ;)

 

I do run the keys in stereo to the main mix... although we have the PA set up mono so it makes little difference. Still, using this mixer setup I can be bathed in stereo... and when I sound better I play better :D

 

 

 

As far as the vocal mic... if there is a problem (feedback etc...) then I can just cut the trim on the channel. Nuff said. I've done it before... and I'll do it again. It doesn't effect my keys mix at all. In fact the vocal signal is usually a bit hotter than my keys mix. Believe me I have this system down to a 'T'.

 

Master volume out is on 6

 

Channel 9/10- Roland- Usually on 10 (on the synth it's 5 for some headroom)

Channel 7/8-Triton Usually on 6- signal is much hotter

Channel 5/6-Alesis on 6- same as above

Channel 1- Vocal mic- on 5.. trim at 1pm

 

Plenty of control. I control what I send to the main board. Sound guys will hate that, but remember we don't really have a sound guy. We are a set it and forget it type band. Our sound guy is really our manager... not a dedicated sound guy. We get a general mix during soundcheck... and for the most part he walks away.

 

Ever hit a brass stab and watch the faces on people cringe in pain? I usually bring any patch that is hot in the mix down manually to match some of the other patches that just don't throw very far (samples, piano...etc). All patches are not created equal (in terms of volume). When we sound check, I test the patches that are hardest to hear in the mix. Then I my levels according to that. I only trim... never increase the volume. Many times I'm playing a line with my right hand and trimming back with my left.

 

How do I know what to trim and not to trim? Simple.

1- I maintain my own monitor mix. I can hear if one patch is to soft or another is earbleeding

2- I use the LED's to maintain a contsant level. I know when I'm pushing sound if my LED lights up like a Christmas tree.

3- I get feedback from the audience. One guy in particular is an excellent musican and is at 90% of our shows. He and I have a great bond and he will give me cues while we're playing where my levels are at. He's like a 3rd base coach. We've asked him to tech or help with sound, but he always refuses. Just doesn't want the committment.

 

I don't want to give the impression that I spend all night with my left hand on the volume knob. Just subtle changes maybe 2-3 times a per set. I play rock keyboards. I'm not playing in a wedding band. For instance if I'm playing the Synth brass section of Faith No More's Epic at the same volume I'm playing the soft piano pad of Journey's intro "Don't Stop Believing" I will likely sheer off someone's scalp!

 

I know people on this board are probably reading this scratching their heads think this schmuck doesn't have a clue as to what he is doing but I will tell you.... since I started approach my keys this way we have recieved nothing but compliments. Compliments form the audience... compliments from club owners... and compliments from fellow musicans who come to either support us... or steal our setlist :D. Everyone tells us what an even mix we have (the new A&H board has helped tremendously) and how great my boards sound in the mix. When I first joined the band I just sent my mix to the main PA and all we ever heard is "I can't hear your keyboard player... He's way too loud... that brass patch hurts my ears...I see your fingers moving but we can barely hear you." So in essence I act as a human compressor/gate/limiter. Not much differen't that

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'Scool Grant - I guess the ends justifies the means... :thu:

 

I forgot you are a "set and forget" band - I thought that you guys had someone doing sound for you all night. I guess, given that's the case, that you absolutely would want total control over your keyboards mix & sounds like you got it. :love:

 

So... what was your original question? Oh yeah, which mixer to replace your zonked Yammie MG10/2 with... why not just get another one of the same exact model? Cheap price and good features & quality - from your experience, right? Maybe get a passive DI as was suggested in earlier post - to stop chewing thru batteries - and you're all set! :cool:

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Originally posted by GigMan

So... what was your original question? Oh yeah, which mixer to replace your zonked Yammie MG10/2 with... why not just get another one of the same exact model? Cheap price and good features & quality - from your experience, right? Maybe get a passive DI as was suggested in earlier post - to stop chewing thru batteries - and you're all set!
:cool:

 

Definitely. Your setup isn't conventional, but you know what you're doing and it works great for ya - stick with it! There's suggestions here, but only you can decide if any possible improvement is greater than the hassle of changing your setup and learning it over what you've been used to.

 

 

Originally posted by GigMan


Got it - hasn't been an issue so far (maybe I've been lucky?).

But I guess the next gig I'm on where there's a sound crew I should ask to make sure they have Phantom Power off on the channel of the FOH mixer that I run my DFX6 into...?

 

Yep. Some boards have global phantom, which might be needed for other mics and DIs, which means you don't get your way. It's great that you've had no problems thus far, but one day it might die, and then you'll be screwed. Best email Mackie and check, and if the DFX outputs are not protected, it can't hurt to buy a couple of DIs or iso transformers... (easy for me to say that since it's not MY $50! ;) )

 

AS

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