Need a snake...

[summit111]

My Brothers,

 

We mix from the stage and we're looking into getting a snake so we can have someone mix us from Front of House. We gig once a month, have a 24 channel mixer. Our two keyboards now connect to the mixer through 1/4" cables.

 

100 foot long would be about right. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[boomerweps]

24 MIC Channel board?

If so, the EWI 24/8/100 is a good deal. Better still would be a 150' reeled version ;>)

 

 

Is it a 16 mic input board with extra stereo channels?

Or maybe 20 mic channels with a couple stereo line channels?

Again, I'd recommend the EWI but in a 16/8 configuration, reeled or plan on a medium to large box to figure eight it in because coiling a snake in a small box is a PITA. With the 8 returns you can always use a few gender-bender adapters on each end to make them sends.

 

Plan on using either a submixer for the keys, preferably with XLR outs to perform the DI function for sending a balanced signal down the snake. If it's TWO separate key players, count on a couple DIs.

 

Boomerweps

[where02190]

Get some DI's for the keyboards unless they have balanced line outputs and the console has balanced line inputs.

[Vinny D]

It's worth the extra money for a *Reel* snake:

 

I bought the 16/8 version a few months back, glad I did!!

 

http://www.audiopile.net/products/Stagelink_snakes/Reel_snakes_products_page.asp

[where02190]

This was debated awhile back. IMHO the reel is not good for the cabling, and adds additional weight and bulk. A small case or even a heavy bag will easily fit a 100-150' snake for carrying, and is much easier to deal with than a reel.

 

YMMV.

[B. Adams]

Even though I know Where and I are in the minority, I agree that a standard snake is much better than a reel. Ideally, it will store in a trunk, coiled in a figure-8. You can also coil it by hand, although if you're going to to that, you'd be best to coil it over-under. If you don't know what that means, you should learn, it's a good skill you can use for coiling anything, and it makes life a lot easier.

 

IMO, when done properly, coiling a snake in a figure-8 into a trunk is faster and easier than reeling it in. A reel is awkward to move around unless it's in a case, it's awkward to unreel because it rolls, and it's awkward to reel up because you have to hold it in place while you reel it up.

 

It's a matter of personal preference, but I dislike reels.

[where02190]

Adams, in my neck of the woods we are in the serious majority, there are only a small handful of rigs with snakes on reels. the vast majority are all in road cases or bags. IN addition, ALL the major SR companies, Clair, 8th Day, Electrotec, et al use trunks not reels.

[Ed Dixon]

Our group has three snakes. Two are in bags and one on a reel. We have had channel problems with the reel model, but the bag ones seem to work forever.

 

Last week we bought a 16x4 100' foot bag model for the church youth area. It was $170 delievered. Seems to be working fine.

 

Ed

[B. Adams]

Oh, I know Where, I just meant that we're the minority here. It seems that everyone on this forum loves reel snakes.

 

I've only ever seen one reel on a tour, and it was some theatre tour, I can't remember which one. But they had 7 or 8 cables loomed together, including snake, a couple lines of power, a couple lines of lighting, maybe coms, and a couple random cables I didn't recognize right away, all on this big reel. The reel itself was about 3' in diameter, 2' wide, and had 500' of cable on it, and stored in a very large, shop-built plywood case (why do theatre tours do that?). I don't know exactly what it weighed, but suffice it to say that it was a lot. And it was still awkward to use, and the crew complained about it too.

 

Every other tour I've ever seen has a trunk, and every major sound company I've seen has a trunk.

 

I've used nothing but standard snakes for a long time now, although we have one reel snake in our rental inventory at work, for people that can't figure out how to coil a standard snake. Which is pretty much everybody that rents stuff from us, so for that application it works out OK.

[milesdf]

In the discussion of reel vs. trunk, theres a simple way to determine what is appropriate for you and why:

 

If you use your snake more than twice a month, trunk it.

 

If you use your snake less, get a reel because you wont use it enough to damage it, and its alot easier to coil.

 

also adams, i always over under my snake in its case, its not that hard.

[agedhorse]

Depending on user care, a reel can be easier on a snake as well. Especially if the user just rolls a snake up and stuffs it into a box.

 

Nothing is quite as cut and dried as it seems.

 

ENG trucks almost exclusively use reels for their long video and audio cables. Seems as though they have this thing figured out pretty well eh?

[where02190]

Originally posted by B. Adams Oh, I know Where, I just meant that we're the minority here .

 

That's cuz we won't join the horses ass club.

[Vinny D]

Well for the life of me I can't see how anyone would want a *trunk* snake over a *reel* snake but I guess thats why they make both types.

As far as there being reliability issues I can't see how a snake that you have to roll up, twist, untangle, and through into a box is less likely to have a problem over a reel snake.

 

All I know is that my 100' snake I can roll out on my own and pack it back up with no help at all.

 

My vote still stands for the reel snake;)

[agedhorse]

Originally posted by Vinny D My vote still stands for the reel snake;)

I guess you just involuntarily joined the "horse's ass club".

[asklouis]

Send me a membership card too. I use one of Mark's reel snakes with a case and seldom use my trunk snake.

[summit111]

My Brothers,

 

Can you suggest some better brands, and more importantly, which ones to avoid.

 

We gig once a month and will get a 24 channel, 100 feet long.

 

Maybe reel, and maybe not. Thanks...

[B. Adams]

Originally posted by Vinny D ...As far as there being reliability issues I can't see how a snake that you have to roll up, twist, untangle, and through into a box is less likely to have a problem over a reel snake.

 

My snakes are never rolled up, twisted, or tangled, they're coiled properly. Which is something you obviously have no experience with.

 

And for the record, I can coil both my 150' 16x8 and our 200'/30' 46x12 splitter by myself, figure-8 into a trunk, without a problem at all. All other cables (up to 150') are over-undered and stacked in cases, and never come out tangled or twisted.

 

My boss likes to over-over some cables sometimes, and it always comes back to bite him (actually usually me) the next time we uncoil them. The way most people coil cables is a huge pain in the ass, and most of the time they don't even know there's a better way.

 

And summit, just get yourself an EWI snake and save yourself the trouble of looking for anything else. They're the best value I've seen. Good quality, excellent reliability, reasonable price. Anything cheaper is crap, anything more expensive and you paid too much. I highly recommend getting the model with 8 returns, because even if you don't now, you will eventually need them.

[6Imzadi]

My board case is the kind that stores the mixer, and effects. There is also room in a compartment next to the efx that I store my 16x4 +3 snake. The +3 is because I needed more returns. I nylon tied them on there along with the AC power cable.

you can never have too many returns.

 

The mixer stays plugged in all the time, and I over-under coil it in the rack. The next time I need it, I can just grab the head and walk to the stage. It has never got tangled.

 

edit: The rack has wheels.

[summit111]

My Brothers,

 

Help me with these coiling techniques you're talking about:

 

Over-Under, Over-Over, Figure 8, etc.

 

Thanks,

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by Vinny D Well for the life of me I can't see how anyone would want a *trunk* snake over a *reel* snake but I guess thats why they make both types. As far as there being reliability issues I can't see how a snake that you have to roll up, twist, untangle, and through into a box is less likely to have a problem over a reel snake. All I know is that my 100' snake I can roll out on my own and pack it back up with no help at all.

 

 

I can neatly coil 300ft of snake into a case by myself, and there's no danger of it being pinched or stretched or twisted. I simply let it coil as it wants, over and under. It comes out just as easily. It's never twisted or tangled, always laying nice and limp, opposed to the tension roll a reel puts on.

 

100' snake certainly doesn't warrant a reel, hell it can ride ON a case. the reel probably weighs as much as the snake!!!!!!!

[where02190]

Over under: One pass coils over, the other under itself, repeat until complete.

 

Figure 8 is pretty self explanatory, wrap in the shape of a big 8 sideways in the case.

 

Best IMHO is to let the cable coil as it wants, which usually is mostly over under, with perhaps a few over or under passes in a row occasionally. Don't force the cable to do what it naturally doesn't want to. that's the problem with a reel, the cable MUST follow the reel, and that causes stress on the cable internally, eventually causing permanent damage to conductors, and rendering channels useless. With hand coiling, you can feel which way the snake wants to coil, and simply coil it that way.

[Vinny D]

 

Originally posted by B. Adams My snakes are never rolled up, twisted, or tangled, they're coiled properly. Which is something you obviously have no experience with.

 

 

It's not the experiance I don't have it's the patience needed at the end of the night;)

[InACanProductions]

I would expect the pro touring companies who have a crew, and use standardized case sizes for truck packing, and who use multipin connectors, and who get paid bigger bucks than the weekend warriors, to use trunk snakes, but for the 1 man opperation a reel snake makes a lot of sense. The cost difference between a reel snake and a standard snake is less than the cost of that same standard snake and a good durable road case to store it in. Weight is less too for the reel snake vs a snake in a trunk. For some people a trunk snake makes more sense for others a reel snake better suits their needs.

[Vinny D]

 

Originally posted by where02190 I can neatly coil 300ft of snake into a case by myself, and there's no danger of it being pinched or stretched or twisted. I simply let it coil as it wants, over and under. It comes out just as easily. It's never twisted or tangled, always laying nice and limp, opposed to the tension roll a reel puts on. 100' snake certainly doesn't warrant a reel, hell it can ride ON a case. the reel probably weighs as much as the snake!!!!!!!

 

 

I guess your just a better man than I am:thu: and you obviously never used a EWI reel snake to see how light they are.

[agedhorse]

The argument of a reel stressing and damaging the cable is pure bunk. With even a little bit of care, it's perfectly safe for the conductors. That's how the manufacturers handle the cable during fabrication, including all the individual conductors and pairs before being spun unti a completed multipair cable.

 

If it's so bad for the cable, then how come the ENG (electronic news gathering) folks use big cable reels on all their trucks... and they use them for the $10/foot video camera control cable as well as the far more rugged multi-pair audio cable. Those trucks handle multiple events each day and many operate 24 hour shifts 7 days a week.

 

Oh, and most of those big reels are electrically operated too.

 

Just did a location recording gig show and there were 3 seperate reels on the truck... 56 pair audio, a big ass reel of mic cable, and a bunch of video cable for remote monitoring around the site.

 

That said, I personally prefer trunks, and over-under of everything. To each his own.