$2500 USD PA System

[yinger]

I've been given a budget to build a PA system for $2500 USD for my church.

 

It's a nice little space that holds ~170 people

Music style: 4-5 piece band (drum, bass, acoustic guitar, electic guitar, keyboard & 3-4 vocals), contemporary worship/not too loud music

 

I did look at: http://www.audioeast.com/systems.htm and looked at package 3.

 

In package 3, it comes with 2 Yorkville NX750P. How well is that speaker? Is that too much power?

 

I still can't decide on powered or unpowered speaker.

 

In terms of mixer, I've come down to THREE candidates:

Allen & Heath WZ3 16:2 - $1000

Yamaha MG24 - $900

Mackie 1604-VLZ3 - $850

 

The MG24 looks like a great deal. The Mackie VLZ3 is the newer one, with better mic pres then the previous version. And A&H.. I hear great things from you guys from searching around..

 

For monitor wise.. we have a small powered mixer that we could use to power some existing home theatre speaker for now.. My thought is getting all quality product, given the small budget, at least get some good speakers and good mixer, that may already used up the budget, and save up for monitors/rack mount stuff later on.. what do you think?

 

I thought I should run by all you guys before I make the final purchase. Cuz to us $2500 it's already a lot of $$...

 

 

Suggestions & recommendations are greatly welcome.

 

Thanks folks!

 

Yinger

[unodunno]

yinger Good luck! I was in a siimilar situation about 15 years ago and it blew up in my face. You'll pick up valuable information here that just might meet your needs. I learn alot from these guys! From my personal experience, I had to bow out and refer the church to a reputable professional sound installer.

[prosigna]

I am not saying they are too much power but I get along fine with far less. Our sanctuary will hold 200 jam packed and we run between 100 and 150 most Sundays. The mains are a two antique Yamaha 15+1 boxes powered with a QSC RMX-850. I never run out of power before everyone is running for cover from the SPL in the room. Our room is lively - 4 red brick walls facing each other.

 

You read correctly: the MixWiz is good stuff.

 

I will add some more latter. My wife needs me for dinner.

[Craig Vecchione]

unodunno's situation is a very real consideration. Folks who don't know, and that'll sum up 99.95% of those who somehow wind up budgeting for church installs, will think their budget is 'more than enough', 'plenty'....etc. It rarely covers much, and when the reality strikes home the first time the system is used, guess who gets the blame? Not the one that budgeted the system, I'll guarantee that.

 

Of course, there's also the other side of the story...church hires a high-priced systems 'expert' who promptly runs up a huge bill for a system than may still not work very well, especially for the price tag.

 

Unless you're an expert, this it shaky ground to tread upon. $2500 is not bad for a small portable system for a small starting band, but a church may expect more. For example, how will monitors be covered in this budget? Will the system be put up and taken down after each service, or will it be considered a permanent installation? If permanent, how will the system be located, installed, and secured?

 

Your safest bet is to not let the money burn a hole in your pocket, and advise the church to take estimates from reputable firms in the area. If nothing else, this process will show them just what's involved and what it really costs.

 

Or maybe you really just need a small portable system and no monitors. In which case, Audiopile's #3 system is excellent.

[Craig Vecchione]

I will add some more latter. My wife needs me for dinner.

 

Is she having your liver with a nice chianti???

 

[flanc]

Is she having your liver with a nice chianti???

 

 

you forgot the "fava beans". yummmm

[prosigna]

OK, now I will try on a full belly.

 

Do you need more than mains and a mixer? What about mics, DIs, cables (long runs & patch cables), CD/Cassette, EQ, snake?

 

The MixWiz is always my first choice for rack mount starter mixers but....

The GL-2400 has much more flexibility for only a few more dollars. I put a GL-2200x16 in our sancuary (had to fit into a 26" cabinet). I really wanted a 24-ch but it would not fit.

 

Seems every church in this area that size used a pair of Peavey SP-2's for years. I would look at a pair of JBL PRX-515's and a GL-2400x16.

 

Are the drums electric or acoustic?

[ThorProductions]

Other considerations before you buy...

 

How high is the ceiling? (A cluster flown may be a better solution)

 

How big is the sanctuary that holds 170 people? (A long rectangle shape could cause acoustic problems along with getting the proper horn dispersion)

 

Buy once, wisely, and for expansion later when needed.

 

I am currently going through a simular experience for our church. Church sound is alittle different in that it is very important to have a very clean and crisp sound. Power is not so important. Use quality speakers and quality mics.

 

Research the internet on sanctuary sound or church sound. There is a wealth of info out there. Take alittle time to see what your needs are before just buying IMHO.

[preacherman672]

 

Your safest bet is to not let the money burn a hole in your pocket, and advise the church to take estimates from reputable firms in the area. If nothing else, this process will show them just what's involved and what it really costs.

 

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

 

Get them a few quotes from two or three different places. It will serve as a reality check for sure. Probably won't add any to your budget but will give you somewhere to stand when they tell you "I thought we'd be getting a lot more than this for $2500"

 

The Audioeast system will be excellent, but you will still need mics, monitors, and cables. If you want to mix from the back/middle of the room you will need a snake also.

 

Les

[kevinnem]

 

(Emphasis mine) Get them a few quotes from two or three different places. It will serve as a reality check for sure. Probably won't add any to your budget but will give you somewhere to stand when they tell you "I thought we'd be getting a lot more than this for $2500" The Audioeast system will be excellent, but you will still need mics, monitors, and cables. If you want to mix from the back/middle of the room you will need a snake also. Les

 

 

 

 

I always thought hte idea of a budget in this context was kinda dumb....

 

here is money and make it work.... that is the wrong attitude in my opinion.

 

 

For me, and this is just not in sound, I say what do I want FIRST.

 

then I find out what it costs. - if I can't affored that , I cosider if I will be happy with a smaller/less freatured "thing".

 

 

.. build me a dam and your budget is 5 million.(how big? where? out of what? for beavers?)

 

.. buy me a house, .. your budget is 100, 000. (how many people in your family? can you walk up and down stairs? do you like wood panneling?)

 

.. buy a sound system.......

[BillESC]

All of the above statements have merit.

 

Can you buy a sound system for $ 2500.00 most certainly, will it work, maybe yes, maybe no.

 

Far more information would be required before appropiate suggestions can really be offered. Room dimensions, wall treatments, hardwood pews or cushioned, rigging points. The list goes on and on.

 

Our company averages a dozen or so church installs annually and each is unique. I'd advise having several EASE software profiles on your space to determine the correct speakers and positioning as a starting point. Once armed with this information the selection of mixers, mics, snakes, etc., becomes easier since your actual audio reproduction cost has a known value.

[drumstix]

A powered speaker that I think that would work well for a church is the new JBL PRX535, a true 3-way tri-amped box. Not to heavy at 74 pounds and has all the internal processing and crossovers and limiters. You can get them for about $1000 dollars each. The new Yamaha boards look nice to with channel strip compressors.

 

Really with only a $2500 budget something like a pair of speakers and a mixer is all that your going to get, just something to amplify the music so the peeps can hear. Ive been in many small chruches and confrences that have had amplifed trash cans as PA systems or some old PA system that was found at a garage sale, lots of junk. The last church where something like this happened with us we bought a pair of self powered DB speakers and a SR24 Mackie and few cheap JBL monitors. Probably not what a real designer would recomend but it worked fine, plenty of headroom and everyone was happy. Now if you had a $25,000 dollar budget..........

[PeaceOnE]

not to hijack thread, but im curious if the allen & heath board (or any of the other 2 he listed) are powered mixers, or if they would require a separate amp?

 

edit: assuming its NOT a powered mixer, what would be the ideal amplifier and speakers to go with the allen & heath in a rock setting?

[yinger]

Thanks for all the reply. I truly apprecaites all the suggestions and recommendation. And I am glad I am not the only one that has been through this similar situation.

 

At this stage, I guess I won't have the budget for monitors.

 

 

Other considerations before you buy... How high is the ceiling? (A cluster flown may be a better solution) How big is the sanctuary that holds 170 people? (A long rectangle shape could cause acoustic problems along with getting the proper horn dispersion) I am currently going through a simular experience for our church. Church sound is alittle different in that it is very important to have a very clean and crisp sound. Power is not so important. Use quality speakers and quality mics.

 

 

Is vaulted ceiling. I am guessing 20 ft.

The space is a multi-purpose hall, but used for worship for sunday.

It's a big square shape.

The worst part is the cement floor. It's an echo chamber.

But we once had a praise & worship that filled up the entire space (~175 people), and with the placed filled, it sounded perfectly fine.. (of course it can be better with carpet)

 

What good quality speakers do you suggest? I agree with the fact that power is not the most important, where as crisp and clarity will also be my priority.

 

 

I hope these extra info helps! Thanks again folks, for your contribution. Making progress slowly but I feel much better with your help.

[yinger]

 

All of the above statements have merit. I'd advise having several EASE software profiles on your space to determine the correct speakers and positioning as a starting point. Once armed with this information the selection of mixers, mics, snakes, etc., becomes easier since your actual audio reproduction cost has a known value.

 

 

How do one go about to get a profile of our space? I guess these are up to the professional? Will pictures help?

[prosigna]

MF Prices.

 

A&H MixWiz 16 - 999.99

A&H GL-2400 - 1699.99

JBL PRX-515 - 999.99 each (2999.97 w/Mix Wiz, 3699.97 w/GL-2400)

JBL PRX-535 - 1199.99 each (4099.97 w/GL-2400)

 

Peavey PR-15P - 399.99 each

Mackie SRM-450 - 699.99 each (2399.97 w/MixWiz)

[BillESC]

Pictures are always helpful.

 

Acoustic Modeling software allows the designer to see the outcome of speaker choice and placement prior to the installation.

 

Here are two models we did for a church installation. The seating area was 80' wide by 50' deep with a 24' peaked ceiling.

 

The first picture shows a center cluster of three FRi 152+ EV speakers. The second is just two FRi 152+ cabs hung in a proceninum fashion.

 

 

 

Guess which system we used...

[ThorProductions]

Just to name a few cabinets, the Electrovoice FRi series, as Bill stated, along with Electrovoice Intense series (EVI), the EAW commercial series, (the VR series). Some are full range, some are bi-ampable. Also, having adjustable or rotatable horns is a plus to get dispersion correct for the room. Having a concrete floor and no wall cover will cause echos and should be addressed at some point.

Be sure that the cabinet is flyable and has the hardware installed for eye bolts, brakets, array, etc. Do not try to fly a cabinet that does not say it is flyable.

It is important that if you do fly any cabinets that this be performed by a certified structural engineer. You do not want the responsibility for anything falling and hurting or killing someone.

You may want to bring in a designer with modeling software who can give best recommendations after testing the room. Call around and see what their costs are and what they offer.

[madt0wn]

 

MF Prices. A&H MixWiz 16 - 999.99 A&H GL-2400 - 1699.99 JBL PRX-515 - 999.99 each (2999.97 w/Mix Wiz, 3699.97 w/GL-2400) JBL PRX-535 - 1199.99 each (4099.97 w/GL-2400) Peavey PR-15 - 399.99 each Mackie SRM-450 - 699.99 each (2399.97 w/MixWiz)

 

 

 

I'm sorry, why would anyone shop musicians friend? They sell everything at MAP, there are plenty of places out there that charge under that and have employees who actually know what they're talking about. Like Full Compass, Sweetwater, sometimes Northern Sound and Light. Not to mention that they're the Wal-Mart of the music industry. Guitar Center/Musicians Friend has forced way too many locally owned business out with their corporate bs. I'll stop ranting.

 

To get back to the question at hand, I'd definitely look into seeking some professional help either from local contractors with good references or from the above mentioned resellers (minus GC/MF). As someone mentioned, find out what it takes to do what you want and then form your budget to meet your needs. The other way around will just lead to more problems down the road. Buy once, cry once...

 

No one here should be throwing out model numbers out of the blue. It's funny that JBL just announced the PRX series and everyone is recommending them. Has anyone actually heard them outside of a showroom yet? I haven't, but given the pricing and JBLs standard MO, I'm guessing that the Yorkville or QSC powered stuff will leave them in the dust.

[prosigna]

I can fully understand the idea of seeking professional advice. The problem I have is with this budget what are they going to come up with? Going rate around here is $100.00 per hour for a service call. An EASE model would cast $200-400.

 

The install company I worked for would not touch anything under $10,000. The companies around here that do small install are not worth the money they charge. I only know of just so many ways to split up 2500 into a bare bones system.

 

I do agree you should look into local providers for the gear. Musicians Friend and the other online stores are a nice place to get prices and compare products but I only buy locally. I only posted some priceing to give an idea of the stuff available. Most install companies will be tight lipped with giving a lot of professional advice but if you are ordering gear they will be more helpful. Don't blame them for being tight lipped, they are paid for what they know. They have spent many years gathering the information you are seeking.

[yinger]

Pictures are always helpful. The first picture shows a center cluster of three FRi 152+ EV speakers. The second is just two FRi 152+ cabs hung in a proceninum fashion. Guess which system we used...

 

wow.. The top used 3 FRi 152+ EV speakers, and they set you $930 each.. that's already 3 grand in speakers.

 

I totally agree with Josh. I would love to seek professional help and get it done properly. But with $2500 as budget.. I really don't know how to split that down.

 

So far I am quiet certain on the A&H wiz3 16:2 for mixer. Now i need to look for speakers.

 

Hey Josh, you suggested the Peavey PR-15, most places are selling it for $199 each (you said $399 each.. u meant as a pair?) Anyways, I've never experienced it before. How well do they sound, because that thing looks quiet tiny.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

I always thought hte idea of a budget in this context was kinda dumb.... here is money and make it work.... that is the wrong attitude in my opinion.

 

Actually... maybe it's the right attitude... sort-of, cause if the folks who have dictated the budget were actually capable of producing the needed results with their budget... well, then they wouldn't be delegating authority to git-er done. The reason they can't get it done themselves with their budget is cause they can't... for whatever reason... but the fact is that they're asking somebody else to produce the results they can't.

 

Assuming, of-course, somebody else came up with the budget... 'cause if the same somebody that came up with the budget... basically pulled the budget out of thin air based on nothing more than a vague perception of what will be an acceptable pricetag with the congregation... and is now blindly shopping (groaping) for something that looks good within budget... man, oh man.

 

See... if the flock decides the church roof needs replaced, they'll go through the Rolodex of roofing contractors, get a handful of bids, come to grips with what it's gonna cost to do what, then budget for it. A new church sound system ought to be budgeted the same way... although for some reason with church sound systems, oftentimes it seems like the budget comes first, then the "research" follows.

[6Imzadi]

 

Pictures are always helpful. Acoustic Modeling software allows the designer to see the outcome of speaker choice and placement prior to the installation.

 

 

Bill, what software did you use for those beautiful pictures?

[BillESC]

It's called LARA. Not the best or worst available but it works.

[prosigna]

 

Hey Josh, you suggested the Peavey PR-15, most places are selling it for $199 each (you said $399 each.. u meant as a pair?)

 

 

Sorry for the confusion. Peavey makes 2 models of the 15" PR series speaker. The PR-15 is around $200 and is a passive speaker. You have to provide a power amp to drive it. The PR-15P is the powered version. They go for around $400. I will go back and edit that post.

 

I feel your pain about the budget. I am part time on staff with a church this size as a Youth Pastor. I never use my political capital to get more money spent on sound. There are other missions the church has that are more important than fancy sound gear. When I ask for money it is for our Youth Program not the sound system. I find it ironic how often people complain about big churches spending too much on sound and then complain when small churches don't spend enough.

 

I like Mark's analogy to how roof problems are dealt with. I think the roof is a great example of budget priorities in a small church with limited resources. The purpose of the roof is to protect the building from the brutal elements of weather. Without a high quality room your investment in a building is destroyed. This makes roof issues a top priority. Where should the sound system fall on the list of missions given to the church?